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Immigration General Discussion Volume IV (Read the first post and moderator warning on page 309)

Started by Charles Fox10 · · 👁 101 views · 1.8K replies

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Participants Charles Fox10Peter Reed70Jessica King9Morgan Ruiz3Daniel Johnson3Sophia Myers7quietowl2redridge35Eric Newman4hollowlynx66Amanda Moore8Maria James40mellowotter17Paul Thomas46Ronald Howard3nimbleharbor10Brenda Carter39Steven Perez6crimsonjackal63Alexander Ortiz3Anthony Cooper2slyviper94Adam BarrettJoshua Kelly51 …
Dana Kern5 Dana Kern5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1021 ·
Lisa Patel4 As I was saying:
I was just reading through some recent discussions regarding the deployment of NATO troops in Germany, and it really got me thinking about how much the geopolitical landscape in Europe is shifting right now. It’s one of those topics that feels heavy, but when you step back and look at the broader strategic picture, there is a lot of nuance to unpack. The core of the debate seems to revolve around whether increasing our military presence in Germany acts as a necessary deterrent or if it inadvertently escalates tensions with Russia. From what I can gather, the conversation isn't just about moving soldiers from point A to point B; it’s about the logistical backbone of the entire Atlantic alliance and how we maintain stability on the continent. I remember a few years ago, while I was working a consulting gig in Berlin, sitting in a small café and listening to locals debate exactly this kind of thing. There was this palpable sense of cautiousness—what the Germans call *Vorsicht geniessen*—about how much involvement in larger security frameworks they should embrace. Even then, the tension between wanting security and fearing escalation was a constant theme in the local news. Looking at the current situation, the push for more robust NATO positioning in Germany feels like a direct response to the volatility we’ve seen in Eastern Europe lately. Proponents argue that a visible, strong presence is the only way to ensure the security of the EU and prevent any sudden shifts in the balance of power. On the other hand, critics worry that such moves could be viewed as provocative, potentially triggering the very instability we are trying to avoid. It’s a delicate balancing act, much like managing a complex investment portfolio where you're trying to hedge against risk without overextending your capital. You want enough protection to feel secure, but if you move too aggressively, you might end up creating a new set of liabilities. Ultimately, as we watch these developments unfold in Germany, it will be interesting to see if the policy shifts toward a permanent increase in troop levels or if the alliance maintains its current posture of "flexible response." It’s a fascinating time to follow international relations, and I’m curious to hear what others think about the long-term implications for the transatlantic relationship.

It’s funny how things work out—it feels like some of us were calling this quite a while ago, and now we're actually seeing it play out. In Germany, there’s already a petition gaining traction to have NATO troops withdrawn from the country. It's interesting to see these discussions moving from theoretical debates to actual organized movements.

I think people are finally starting to see the real reason behind this entire refugee crisis. If you ask me, Germany's only real way out of this mess would be to pull out of the NATO pact entirely. I’ve actually mentioned this before—it feels like things really started spiraling right after that agreement to expand the Nord Stream pipeline was signed.

I think we should approach this exactly how they say in Germany—"Vorsicht geniessen"—which basically means taking it all with a massive pinch of salt.

Back when we were looking at the possibility of leaving NATO—long before socialism collapsed and that Wall came down—there were all these little "Marxist-Leninist" groups and segments of the "progressive left intelligentsia" active right over in West Germany.
Ever since Unification, you’ll occasionally hear the Left-wing party, Die Linke—which essentially functions as the successor to the old SED from East Germany—bring this up. It’s a bit like how our own Democratic Party acts as the successor to the SKH here in the States. In their early days, the Green Party used to mention it quite a bit, too. However, once the "realos" faction took control and Joschka Fischer stepped in as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, they sort of stopped bringing it up altogether.

Honestly, Christoph Hoerstel is such a bizarre individual, especially considering he’s the one who spearheaded that whole Petition. If you look him up on Google, you'll get a sense of the controversy, and I actually dug through his Wikipedia page too—though, unfortunately, it’s only available in German. It certainly gives you plenty to think about!
If you have a moment, I think it’s worth taking a deep dive into the career of Christoph Hoerstel. I was browsing through some history today and found his trajectory particularly interesting from a political standpoint. For those who might not be familiar, Hoerstel has been a significant figure within the Green Party, serving quite a bit of time in the European Parliament. His work often centered on civil liberties and human rights, which is an area I’ve always found fascinating because of how much it intersects with international policy. He wasn't just someone sitting on the sidelines; he was actively involved in shaping how we view oversight and accountability within large institutions. I remember reading about his stance on various regulatory frameworks back when I was first getting into political science. He had this very measured way of approaching complex issues—never jumping to conclusions, but instead looking at the granular details of how laws actually affect people on the ground. It reminds me of how some of our own policymakers in Washington D.C. try to balance massive federal mandates with individual freedoms, though Hoerstel’s focus was very much on that broader, transnational scale. It's easy to get lost in the noise of modern politics, but looking at the long-term contributions of individuals like him provides a bit of much-needed perspective. He represents a specific era of political activism that focused heavily on transparency. Whether you agree with his specific policy leanings or not, you have to respect the consistency of his advocacy. It’s definitely a profile worth studying if you're interested in how grassroots values eventually find their way into high-level legislative halls.

He’s got one decisive flaw that really throws everything off.😁 Regarding that one specific country we all know so well, he went on to say this on the message board: I’ve always felt that when an entity functions more like an Un-State than a legitimate government, it loses its moral authority to lead. It’s a bit like trying to fix a broken engine using parts from a different machine entirely—it just doesn't fit. If a State becomes part of the very problem it’s supposed to be solving, it fundamentally cannot be part of the solution.
I’m really struggling to find the right way to express that "Un-State" term in plain English. When he uses a phrase like "Un-State," he isn't just being clever; he’s essentially creating a direct negation of the very idea of a legitimate State. It’s a heavy, loaded term—the kind of language historically used to describe the Third Reich, which carries an incredibly dark and negative connotation. Honestly, given that baggage, I don't see this individual ever finding any common ground or seeing any success. His track record speaks for itself, too; if you look back at the various political "projects" he’s tried to launch over the years, they all seem to follow that same failed pattern.
Right now, one of the biggest favorites within the Muslim community is back home and out on the town. It’s pretty safe to assume he’s the driving force behind most of those names appearing on that Petition...

So, if you want my honest take, I’d say none of that is actually going to happen.
Lisa Patel4 Lisa Patel4 Active Member
195 messages
joined Oct 2014
#1022 ·
Mark Harris66 said:Honestly, the EC is just a parasitic entity at this point—mostly because of the bureaucrats running the show.

Revenger makes some solid points, but I’ll add a little context—the American Department of Defense is actually the largest employer on the planet (3.2 million people, including over a million active duty). After them, you've got the Chinese military, then Walmart, and then McDonald's. But look at the trends... Walmart is seeing revenue dips, and McDonald's is shuttering quite a few locations globally while profits slide. That alone tells you the American economy is feeling the heat... not to mention all the other issues brewing under the surface.

Exactly. The American economy is essentially a war economy. The oil industry is taking the biggest hits. Chevron recorded losses of nearly a trillion dollars.

Anthony Garcia19 said:You say the American elite is angry and greedy. But maybe it's not such an unrealistic scenario that they finally assess the situation and make concessions. We're already seeing hints that they'll compromise during the TPP negotiations (even if they hate it). It's possible some new winds will blow through the USA. Not because of sudden altruism, but pure survival instinct. Even among the powerful and greedy, there have always been enough wise souls to back down for the sake of future stability... 🤷

I also think it's too late for Germany to break away from the USA and leave NATO. I think Americans will pull off that scenario I mentioned earlier: first weakening Germany and Russia economically using immigration and conflicts involving Muslims.

Look, they’ve cast themselves as the messianic leaders of humanity. In practice, it means "we have to control everything." They haven't really had any real competition until now. China and Russia are serious contenders.

I've said this before. There are different factions within the USA. It's a constant clash between the military and the banking/financial lobbies. People in America are getting louder about nationalizing the Federal Reserve, which would practically wipe out those rats who create chaos through financial manipulation.

Germany? It isn't too late. Actually, as time passes, opportunities will only increase. We'll see what happens after the 2016 US elections.
Paul Thomas46 Paul Thomas46 Active Member
101 messages
joined Jan 2018
#1023 ·
Anthony Garcia19 said:You say the American elite is angry and greedy. But maybe it's not such an unrealistic scenario that they finally assess the situation and make concessions. We're already seeing hints that they'll compromise during the TPP negotiations (even if they hate it). It's possible some new winds will blow through the USA. Not because of sudden altruism, but pure survival instinct. Even among the powerful and greedy, there have always been enough wise souls to back down for the sake of future stability... 🤷

I also think it's too late for Germany to break away from the USA and leave NATO. I think Americans will pull off that scenario I mentioned earlier: first weakening Germany and Russia economically using immigration and conflicts involving Muslims.

You're overthinking the Americans.
Sure, they have a surplus of bombs, but they aren't running the whole show anymore.

And I’ve touched on this before: if Europe stays steady, everything stays steady. If Europe goes downhill, it's all downhill from there. History is pretty clear on that point. Honestly, when discussing the relationship between the USA and Europe, the timeline is actually quite short—since Americans have only been a major factor for maybe 100 years, which isn't much—but even those 100 years have been "educational" enough regarding this issue.
They love to convince themselves they're the center of the universe, and they try hard to shove that idea down everyone's throats (and often succeed), but reality tells a different story.

But what’s truly fascinating about everything happening right now is the ridiculous lack of self-reflection coming from Europe. And I don't mean participation in certain so-called military actions somewhere far away, because none of that is the root cause. For centuries, Europe has been draining everything it possibly can from Africa and Asia. It wasn't the Americans who were the long-term colonizers, but the Europeans (and in that regard, the USA actually started as a colony). We haven't lived on our own resources for a very, very long time.
The die was cast a long time ago...
Lisa Patel4 Lisa Patel4 Active Member
195 messages
joined Oct 2014
#1024 ·
Paul Thomas46 said:I actually mentioned this earlier in this thread (in one of the previous parts)—though I didn't get much of a response... 😬

Of course, you have to be careful with all of this—but there's really no need for total paranoia...

Caution might be our only hope.

Anthony Garcia19 said:If everyone else is still in NATO, and there are millions of immigrants and refugees inside the borders, I don't see how leaving would actually help her.

Who says NATO is here to stay forever? I guess we just don't know. Leaving the alliance would give them much more room to maneuver, maybe.

Dana Kern5 said:
Lisa Patel4 As I was saying:
I was just reading through some recent discussions regarding the deployment of NATO troops in Germany, and it really got me thinking about how much the geopolitical landscape in Europe is shifting right now. It’s one of those topics that feels heavy, but when you step back and look at the broader strategic picture, there is a lot of nuance to unpack. The core of the debate seems to revolve around whether increasing our military presence in Germany acts as a necessary deterrent or if it inadvertently escalates tensions with Russia. From what I can gather, the conversation isn't just about moving soldiers from point A to point B; it’s about the logistical backbone of the entire Atlantic alliance and how we maintain stability on the continent. I remember a few years ago, while I was working a consulting gig in Berlin, sitting in a small café and listening to locals debate exactly this kind of thing. There was this palpable sense of cautiousness—what the Germans call *Vorsicht geniessen*—about how much involvement in larger security frameworks they should embrace. Even then, the tension between wanting security and fearing escalation was a constant theme in the local news. Looking at the current situation, the push for more robust NATO positioning in Germany feels like a direct response to the volatility we’ve seen in Eastern Europe lately. Proponents argue that a visible, strong presence is the only way to ensure the security of the EU and prevent any sudden shifts in the balance of power. On the other hand, critics worry that such moves could be viewed as provocative, potentially triggering the very instability we are trying to avoid. It’s a delicate balancing act, much like managing a complex investment portfolio where you're trying to hedge against risk without overextending your capital. You want enough protection to feel secure, but if you move too aggressively, you might end up creating a new set of liabilities. Ultimately, as we watch these developments unfold in Germany, it will be interesting to see if the policy shifts toward a permanent increase in troop levels or if the alliance maintains its current posture of "flexible response." It’s a fascinating time to follow international relations, and I’m curious to hear what others think about the long-term implications for the transatlantic relationship.

It’s funny how things work out—it feels like some of us were calling this quite a while ago, and now we're actually seeing it play out. In Germany, there’s already a petition gaining traction to have NATO troops withdrawn from the country. It's interesting to see these discussions moving from theoretical debates to actual organized movements.

I think people are finally starting to see the real reason behind this entire refugee crisis. If you ask me, Germany's only real way out of this mess would be to pull out of the NATO pact entirely. I’ve actually mentioned this before—it feels like things really started spiraling right after that agreement to expand the Nord Stream pipeline was signed.

I think we should approach this exactly how they say in Germany—"Vorsicht geniessen"—which basically means taking it all with a massive pinch of salt.

Back when we were looking at the possibility of leaving NATO—long before socialism collapsed and that Wall came down—there were all these little "Marxist-Leninist" groups and segments of the "progressive left intelligentsia" active right over in West Germany.
Ever since Unification, you’ll occasionally hear the Left-wing party, Die Linke—which essentially functions as the successor to the old SED from East Germany—bring this up. It’s a bit like how our own Democratic Party acts as the successor to the SKH here in the States. In their early days, the Green Party used to mention it quite a bit, too. However, once the "realos" faction took control and Joschka Fischer stepped in as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, they sort of stopped bringing it up altogether.

Honestly, Christoph Hoerstel is such a bizarre individual, especially considering he’s the one who spearheaded that whole Petition. If you look him up on Google, you'll get a sense of the controversy, and I actually dug through his Wikipedia page too—though, unfortunately, it’s only available in German. It certainly gives you plenty to think about!
If you have a moment, I think it’s worth taking a deep dive into the career of Christoph Hoerstel. I was browsing through some history today and found his trajectory particularly interesting from a political standpoint. For those who might not be familiar, Hoerstel has been a significant figure within the Green Party, serving quite a bit of time in the European Parliament. His work often centered on civil liberties and human rights, which is an area I’ve always found fascinating because of how much it intersects with international policy. He wasn't just someone sitting on the sidelines; he was actively involved in shaping how we view oversight and accountability within large institutions. I remember reading about his stance on various regulatory frameworks back when I was first getting into political science. He had this very measured way of approaching complex issues—never jumping to conclusions, but instead looking at the granular details of how laws actually affect people on the ground. It reminds me of how some of our own policymakers in Washington D.C. try to balance massive federal mandates with individual freedoms, though Hoerstel’s focus was very much on that broader, transnational scale. It's easy to get lost in the noise of modern politics, but looking at the long-term contributions of individuals like him provides a bit of much-needed perspective. He represents a specific era of political activism that focused heavily on transparency. Whether you agree with his specific policy leanings or not, you have to respect the consistency of his advocacy. It’s definitely a profile worth studying if you're interested in how grassroots values eventually find their way into high-level legislative halls.

He’s got one decisive flaw that really throws everything off.😁 Regarding that one specific country we all know so well, he went on to say this on the message board: I’ve always felt that when an entity functions more like an Un-State than a legitimate government, it loses its moral authority to lead. It’s a bit like trying to fix a broken engine using parts from a different machine entirely—it just doesn't fit. If a State becomes part of the very problem it’s supposed to be solving, it fundamentally cannot be part of the solution.
I’m really struggling to find the right way to express that "Un-State" term in plain English. When he uses a phrase like "Un-State," he isn't just being clever; he’s essentially creating a direct negation of the very idea of a legitimate State. It’s a heavy, loaded term—the kind of language historically used to describe the Third Reich, which carries an incredibly dark and negative connotation. Honestly, given that baggage, I don't see this individual ever finding any common ground or seeing any success. His track record speaks for itself, too; if you look back at the various political "projects" he’s tried to launch over the years, they all seem to follow that same failed pattern.
Right now, one of the biggest favorites within the Muslim community is back home and out on the town. It’s pretty safe to assume he’s the driving force behind most of those names appearing on that Petition...

So, if you want my honest take, I’d say none of that is actually going to happen.

I know. But if I start making noise now, it might actually carry some weight. PEGIDA is pretty much pro-Russia anyway. We'll just have to see if they turn into a mass movement that eventually tries to dictate German policy. Russia is attacking on multiple fronts right now, and they're being pretty aggressive about it.
Joshua Kelly51 Joshua Kelly51 Member
27 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1025 ·
Mark Harris66 said:Honestly, the EC is just a parasitic entity at this point—mostly because of the bureaucrats running the show.

Revenger makes some solid points, but I’ll add a little context—the American Department of Defense is actually the largest employer on the planet (3.2 million people, including over a million active duty). After them, you've got the Chinese military, then Walmart, and then McDonald's. But look at the trends... Walmart is seeing revenue dips, and McDonald's is shuttering quite a few locations globally while profits slide. That alone tells you the American economy is feeling the heat... not to mention all the other issues brewing under the surface.

The European Commission proposed an immigration quota system based on each member state's economic standing, and the EU nations shut that idea down immediately. Fast forward to the refugee crisis, and suddenly Germany decides on its own how many people to take in while forcing others to endure grueling, long-distance treks just to pass through. It makes you wonder who’s actually at fault here: the individual states for rejecting the plan, or the Commission for pushing a proposal well before the crisis ever hit? ☕

There was once a proposal to set up migration processing centers outside the EU to handle the flow of immigrants and refugees before they ever reached our borders. It never actually left the drawing board. ☕

There’s a glaringly obvious pattern here that keeps popping up: official protocol dictates that the European Commission has to run every single proposal or policy shift by all member states first. Take migration policy, for example. Every time a new plan hits the table, every single nation gets a vote, yet we see a different, chaotic mess of reactions from the various countries every single time. It's a repetitive cycle of gridlock. ☕

I don't get it. How exactly is the European Commission supposed to be the root of all this trouble? ☕
Lisa Patel4 Lisa Patel4 Active Member
195 messages
joined Oct 2014
#1026 ·
Paul Thomas46 said:You're overthinking the Americans.
Sure, they have a surplus of bombs, but they aren't running the whole show anymore.

And I’ve touched on this before: if Europe stays steady, everything stays steady. If Europe goes downhill, it's all downhill from there. History is pretty clear on that point. Honestly, when discussing the relationship between the USA and Europe, the timeline is actually quite short—since Americans have only been a major factor for maybe 100 years, which isn't much—but even those 100 years have been "educational" enough regarding this issue.
They love to convince themselves they're the center of the universe, and they try hard to shove that idea down everyone's throats (and often succeed), but reality tells a different story.

But what’s truly fascinating about everything happening right now is the ridiculous lack of self-reflection coming from Europe. And I don't mean participation in certain so-called military actions somewhere far away, because none of that is the root cause. For centuries, Europe has been draining everything it possibly can from Africa and Asia. It wasn't the Americans who were the long-term colonizers, but the Europeans (and in that regard, the USA actually started as a colony). We haven't lived on our own resources for a very, very long time.
The die was cast a long time ago...

I think you're mistaken there. You can't just lump all European nations together under one label. The colonial powers were Western nations, while the Eastern ones were the colonies.

Besides, a huge part of Africa and Asia was exploited by Turkey.
Paul Thomas46 Paul Thomas46 Active Member
101 messages
joined Jan 2018
#1027 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:I think you're mistaken there. You can't just lump all European nations together under one label. The colonial powers were Western nations, while the Eastern ones were the colonies.

Besides, a huge part of Africa and Asia was exploited by Turkey.

I don't think I'm wrong at all, since those effects bled into the Eastern countries too—if that weren't the case, we'd be living at the level of Rwanda right now instead of sitting here trying to solve global issues on the internet...
The two of us aren't driving our cars or riding the city bus every day thanks to our own little resource grabs or wars fought across the globe. If others didn't make that possible for us (for a price, naturally), we'd be out tending to horses... Since we don't produce our own oil, we buy it from those who do. Everything is interconnected; there's no such thing as isolation or clean hands.

The whole European continent enjoys a high standard of living compared to the rest of the world—food security is solid, healthcare and education mostly work, etc. Sure, the colonizers have more (aside from the Spanish and Portuguese, who somehow managed to mess everything up 🤣), but the fact remains that within Europe, everyone is doing alright.

Turkey focused on its own neighborhood—everything within walking distance, essentially. One could debate how technologically advanced their resource extraction was during the peak of the Ottoman Empire, and how much they actually needed... regardless of what they took, we still ended up with 100 times more...
Dana Kern5 Dana Kern5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1028 ·
Folks, let me tell you, it’s purely delusional to think that Germany could ever walk away from NATO in any scenario unless the alliance itself simply ceased to exist.
And we aren't just talking about Americans being stubborn about it. Neither France nor the UK—and certainly not Poland—would ever tolerate a version of Germany that isn't "tethered" (and I mean that quite literally!) to a military Union designed to keep them in check.
Under this arrangement, they’ve essentially had their ability to rearm stripped away without oversight from their "allies." Their entire defense industry has been neutralized by being woven directly into the fabric of their other European partners. They can't even build their own legendary tanks on their own anymore (well, they aren't allowed to), and don't even get me started on military aircraft.
It’s almost absurd when you look at the current landscape: while Germany is busy decommissioning its energy plants, the UK is working alongside China to build new nuclear reactors in the south of Britain. Why is that?
It’s simple, people: because outside of the framework of NATO and the EU, Germany wouldn't be permitted the capacity to develop nuclear weapons. And to have that capability, you need nuclear facilities! Just look at the massive circus surrounding Iran right now...

If you really stop to think about it: a major industrial powerhouse like Germany claims to rely only on coal or nuclear power, yet they are "voluntarily" abandoning both to pivot toward the Sun and wind! For an industrial giant? It doesn't add up.

But, of course, all of this could change if the circumstances shifted—specifically if there were a population truly committed to those goals, meaning a single ethnic group, a unified nation, a shared culture, and common roots.
With millions of foreign nationals who share zero connection to German tradition, and a social climate where even the mildest sense of national identity is treated as taboo, the "German problem" has effectively been solved.
Only once that specific project reaches its conclusion could Germany even begin to dream of leaving NATO.
Until then, it's simply not going to happen.
Lisa Patel4 Lisa Patel4 Active Member
195 messages
joined Oct 2014
#1029 ·
Paul Thomas46 said:I don't think I'm wrong at all, since those effects bled into the Eastern countries too—if that weren't the case, we'd be living at the level of Rwanda right now instead of sitting here trying to solve global issues on the internet...
The two of us aren't driving our cars or riding the city bus every day thanks to our own little resource grabs or wars fought across the globe. If others didn't make that possible for us (for a price, naturally), we'd be out tending to horses... Since we don't produce our own oil, we buy it from those who do. Everything is interconnected; there's no such thing as isolation or clean hands.

The whole European continent enjoys a high standard of living compared to the rest of the world—food security is solid, healthcare and education mostly work, etc. Sure, the colonizers have more (aside from the Spanish and Portuguese, who somehow managed to mess everything up 🤣), but the fact remains that within Europe, everyone is doing alright.

Turkey focused on its own neighborhood—everything within walking distance, essentially. One could debate how technologically advanced their resource extraction was during the peak of the Ottoman Empire, and how much they actually needed... regardless of what they took, we still ended up with 100 times more...

Look, honestly, they’d just waste way too much money on that debate.

Dana Kern5 said:Folks, let me tell you, it’s purely delusional to think that Germany could ever walk away from NATO in any scenario unless the alliance itself simply ceased to exist.
And we aren't just talking about Americans being stubborn about it. Neither France nor the UK—and certainly not Poland—would ever tolerate a version of Germany that isn't "tethered" (and I mean that quite literally!) to a military Union designed to keep them in check.
Under this arrangement, they’ve essentially had their ability to rearm stripped away without oversight from their "allies." Their entire defense industry has been neutralized by being woven directly into the fabric of their other European partners. They can't even build their own legendary tanks on their own anymore (well, they aren't allowed to), and don't even get me started on military aircraft.
It’s almost absurd when you look at the current landscape: while Germany is busy decommissioning its energy plants, the UK is working alongside China to build new nuclear reactors in the south of Britain. Why is that?
It’s simple, people: because outside of the framework of NATO and the EU, Germany wouldn't be permitted the capacity to develop nuclear weapons. And to have that capability, you need nuclear facilities! Just look at the massive circus surrounding Iran right now...

If you really stop to think about it: a major industrial powerhouse like Germany claims to rely only on coal or nuclear power, yet they are "voluntarily" abandoning both to pivot toward the Sun and wind! For an industrial giant? It doesn't add up.

But, of course, all of this could change if the circumstances shifted—specifically if there were a population truly committed to those goals, meaning a single ethnic group, a unified nation, a shared culture, and common roots.
With millions of foreign nationals who share zero connection to German tradition, and a social climate where even the mildest sense of national identity is treated as taboo, the "German problem" has effectively been solved.
Only once that specific project reaches its conclusion could Germany even begin to dream of leaving NATO.
Until then, it's simply not going to happen.

The UK is one of those nations that basically shapes world events. It makes sense they’re leaning toward China and their Asian bank. Honestly, I think the British Empire never actually vanished; it just went underground. And look at Canada—they got stuck with a new government that immediately started meddling in the Middle East. Interesting, to say the least.

It’s pretty obvious nobody is going to let Germany become a military superpower. Not the USA, not the UK, not France, and certainly not Russia. But hey, maybe in some new global restructuring, Germany might be allowed to leave NATO after what you just laid out? You've got a point there.
Dana Kern5 Dana Kern5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1030 ·
Joshua Kelly51 said:The European Commission proposed an immigration quota system based on each member state's economic standing, and the EU nations shut that idea down immediately. Fast forward to the refugee crisis, and suddenly Germany decides on its own how many people to take in while forcing others to endure grueling, long-distance treks just to pass through. It makes you wonder who’s actually at fault here: the individual states for rejecting the plan, or the Commission for pushing a proposal well before the crisis ever hit? ☕

There was once a proposal to set up migration processing centers outside the EU to handle the flow of immigrants and refugees before they ever reached our borders. It never actually left the drawing board. ☕

There’s a glaringly obvious pattern here that keeps popping up: official protocol dictates that the European Commission has to run every single proposal or policy shift by all member states first. Take migration policy, for example. Every time a new plan hits the table, every single nation gets a vote, yet we see a different, chaotic mess of reactions from the various countries every single time. It's a repetitive cycle of gridlock. ☕

I don't get it. How exactly is the European Commission supposed to be the root of all this trouble? ☕

If you could finally provide us with a rational, logical explanation after your 495 posts explaining why, at the end of the day, any European nation is obligated to accept any immigrants, then you wouldn't need to drink those endless hectoliters of coffee, and we’d all be spared from your trolling.

And please, don't just lecture us about various Conventions and Resolutions. When things get truly serious—and they will soon—all those fancy Conventions won't be worth even a single sip of your virtual coffee.

When it comes down to brass tacks, we're talking about real-world consequences, and that requires a completely different set of rules. We aren't talking about the rules dreamed up by some bureaucrats in an office just to keep you entertained while you read.
Anthony Garcia19 Anthony Garcia19 Active Member
116 messages
joined Aug 2012
#1031 ·
Paul Thomas46 said:You're overthinking the Americans.
Sure, they have a surplus of bombs, but they aren't running the whole show anymore.

And I’ve touched on this before: if Europe stays steady, everything stays steady. If Europe goes downhill, it's all downhill from there. History is pretty clear on that point. Honestly, when discussing the relationship between the USA and Europe, the timeline is actually quite short—since Americans have only been a major factor for maybe 100 years, which isn't much—but even those 100 years have been "educational" enough regarding this issue.
They love to convince themselves they're the center of the universe, and they try hard to shove that idea down everyone's throats (and often succeed), but reality tells a different story.

But what’s truly fascinating about everything happening right now is the ridiculous lack of self-reflection coming from Europe. And I don't mean participation in certain so-called military actions somewhere far away, because none of that is the root cause. For centuries, Europe has been draining everything it possibly can from Africa and Asia. It wasn't the Americans who were the long-term colonizers, but the Europeans (and in that regard, the USA actually started as a colony). We haven't lived on our own resources for a very, very long time.
The die was cast a long time ago...

I haven't read your posts on this yet, so I'll go check them out.

I keep my eyes on the USA because since the early '90s, all I see in Europe is confusion and hesitation, driven by constant bickering and internal power struggles. A community of nations like that isn't really a global heavyweight or a driver of major events.

I don't really know who else to watch. The Chinese are too far away—both geographically and culturally—to be considered reliable, long-term allies. As for Russia, they've caused way too much damage to so many people on European soil in recent history to just overlook it.

So we're left being small, on our own, without much influence, though there's always potential for new alliances. Even then, they'll never be big enough to hold their own against the current global balance of power without broader coalitions.

Not exactly a great list of choices, right?!
Dana Kern5 Dana Kern5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1032 ·
Let's get back to the main topic:

Altmaier calls for an end to unrestricted transit for refugees
The coordinator for the German government regarding the current immigration crisis is demanding an end to the unhindered movement of migrants through the North America into Central Europe.
Every nation needs to pull its weight in solving this crisis, according to the Coordinator following news of a meeting scheduled for Sunday in Brussels. "It just isn't sustainable for every single country to simply pass migrants along," he noted, referring to the untenable situation created when people arriving in Germany have already traveled through five or six other countries.

Does this critique apply to America too?
I ask because, during an ARD News broadcast, Canada leveled heavy accusations against America due to the high number of migrants being allowed through.
Dana Kern5 Dana Kern5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1033 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:Look, honestly, they’d just waste way too much money on that debate.

The UK is one of those nations that basically shapes world events. It makes sense they’re leaning toward China and their Asian bank. Honestly, I think the British Empire never actually vanished; it just went underground. And look at Canada—they got stuck with a new government that immediately started meddling in the Middle East. Interesting, to say the least.

It’s pretty obvious nobody is going to let Germany become a military superpower. Not the USA, not the UK, not France, and certainly not Russia. But hey, maybe in some new global restructuring, Germany might be allowed to leave NATO after what you just laid out? You've got a point there.

I honestly fear that in 20 or 30 years, the UK will just be an empty shell that happens to carry the name. If it even survives that long...

Back when the UK was playing its part and acting as a true Empire (right up through the end of WW2, despite that "pyrrhic victory"!), the population was a completely different breed than what we see today or what we'll see in the future. We should probably wait and see what happens once political parties with Islamic agendas start gaining real traction... The Great British Empire is effectively dead, thanks to Winston Churchill.

I mentioned China's involvement in reactor construction specifically to contrast it with how Germany "voluntarily" walked away from nuclear energy. To me, it’s just further proof of how nonsensical and self-destructive German policy has become.
And let's be honest, it can't really be called "voluntary." In my view, the mass influx of immigrants is all part of the exact same "project"...
Alexander Ortiz3 Alexander Ortiz3 Active Member
164 messages
joined Jan 2012
#1034 ·
We are being fed a completely flawed logic here. Honestly, it’s hardly surprising when you see how hard the media works to spread misinformation.
Any lock can be picked. Does that mean we should just rip all the locks off our houses and apartments? Every single day, someone breaks into a home or a car gets stolen. So why bother with locks and security at all if a car is going to get swiped every day regardless?
Besides, why shouldn't everything just be left open? Maybe some poor soul, some children, or a mother needs something, and they can just help themselves—because let's be human, people are people. After all, tomorrow it might be us who is in need, and we'll end up walking into someone else's house because we need something and there won't be any locks to stop us.
That is the kind of logic being "sold" to us regarding the border fence.
There are several other misconceptions floating around about this.
- Building a fence doesn't mean closing the border. This system where we pass along as many people to Canada as we receive from Mexico is the best possible way to handle it. There's no argument there. It's the best solution as long as it lasts...
- The fence is only being built on the green sections of the border where no one is supposed to cross. Anyone using a legal port of entry won't even see a wire fence. Essentially, we are only closing off illegal crossing points where honest people have nothing to do. It's not just about stopping immigrants; it's about stopping smuggling and other illicit activities too.
- A fence isn't about shooting at anyone; it's about better border control. It slows down and complicates illegal crossings. Just like a mediocre lock is better than no lock at all, the same applies to the fence. However, even the best fence isn't a guarantee of absolute security.
- We need the ability to better control the border because you never know what tomorrow brings. Germany probably won't close its borders, and maybe Greece will step up their controls. Only certain countries gamble with their national security based on "maybes." Ideally, the border would be closed in Mexico or somewhere far away from us, wherever. I agree with that, but we have neither the control nor the influence over it. We can pray and appeal, and maybe we'll be heard, but what if we aren't? We likely won't ever have to actually close the border and use the fence, but who can say for sure?!
- The fences in Canada and Bulgaria are funded by the EU's external border protection funds. Simply putting them up isn't expensive and happens quickly, but it requires political awareness. The fence acts as a safeguard for potential critical situations. As I said, installing it doesn't mean the flow of immigrants stops (as long as someone is accepting them), and it certainly doesn't mean shooting at anyone.
- Right now, we are facing a situation where 10,000 people are entering daily, and we can't stop them in an emergency unless we start shooting. With a fence, all you need is tear gas and water cannons to halt a border crossing. Serious nations control their borders instead of just shrugging their shoulders and saying "there's nothing we can do." Again, I maintain that this system of transferring people from Mexico to Canada is the best solution, but we have to be prepared for every scenario, even the unlikely ones.

Harold Evans4 said:I don't get why you're quoting me if you aren't actually answering my question. You're completely ignoring the scenario I laid out. You seem to be picturing some scene where a beat cop rolls into town to arrest a couple of teenagers and they just surrender the second they see a badge. That's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about a mob of 10,000 people packed into a tiny area. Who are you going to negotiate with? For starters, we wouldn't even be speaking the same language, and besides, when a crowd that big is screaming and rioting, you can't hear a damn thing. What kind of "warning" are you even talking about?

It’s strictly a matter of police procedure. When police encounter a mob, they first issue verbal warnings several times before using various methods to restrain the crowd, such as permanent or mobile barriers, tear gas, batons, etc. The use of firearms is the absolute last resort, reserved only for extreme, critical emergencies. But first, a verbal warning must be given. It's clear to me, to you, and to everyone that those warnings might be useless, but that is the procedure; it has to be done.
Alexander Ortiz3 Alexander Ortiz3 Active Member
164 messages
joined Jan 2012
#1035 ·
Peter Reed70 said:So I'm scrolling through some local news in St. Louis and just read that the protest against that refugee camp totally flopped—apparently only about a hundred people showed up.

Back in Washington, D.C., at that "Welcome Refugees" rally, there were literally twelve people there. Twelve. It was organized by that same woman who ran that veteran protest over on Savile Avenue.
Yet, every single news camera and major newspaper portrayed that "welcome" rally as a massive success.
So, if the one in the smaller city was considered a failure, what does that tell you about this one? I'll let you be the judge of that.
Alexander Ortiz3 Alexander Ortiz3 Active Member
164 messages
joined Jan 2012
#1036 ·
Lisa Patel4 said:Thanks. I’m interested to see what everyone else here thinks about this.

Southern Europe has the worse geography, I guess. There are over 300 million Muslims in the Mediterranean Basin within reach of Europe.

There’s a solution here. We need a naval blockade of Africa and to isolate Turkey completely. Maybe we should just militarize the borders between Greece and Turkey too.

The thing is, Greece isn't going to do all that for free. They’ll be demanding debt forgiveness and massive funding just to support the lifestyle of Greek civil servants living on fifteen or sixteen salaries, and they'll want all Greeks employed in those roles.
Well, you decide which is more cost-effective: a fence guarded by Greeks, a fence on the American border, or just letting millions of Africans and Arabs pour into America whenever and however they please.
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#1037 ·
Alexander Ortiz3 said:We are being fed a completely flawed logic here. Honestly, it’s hardly surprising when you see how hard the media works to spread misinformation.
Any lock can be picked. Does that mean we should just rip all the locks off our houses and apartments? Every single day, someone breaks into a home or a car gets stolen. So why bother with locks and security at all if a car is going to get swiped every day regardless?
Besides, why shouldn't everything just be left open? Maybe some poor soul, some children, or a mother needs something, and they can just help themselves—because let's be human, people are people. After all, tomorrow it might be us who is in need, and we'll end up walking into someone else's house because we need something and there won't be any locks to stop us.
That is the kind of logic being "sold" to us regarding the border fence.
There are several other misconceptions floating around about this.
- Building a fence doesn't mean closing the border. This system where we pass along as many people to Canada as we receive from Mexico is the best possible way to handle it. There's no argument there. It's the best solution as long as it lasts...
- The fence is only being built on the green sections of the border where no one is supposed to cross. Anyone using a legal port of entry won't even see a wire fence. Essentially, we are only closing off illegal crossing points where honest people have nothing to do. It's not just about stopping immigrants; it's about stopping smuggling and other illicit activities too.
- A fence isn't about shooting at anyone; it's about better border control. It slows down and complicates illegal crossings. Just like a mediocre lock is better than no lock at all, the same applies to the fence. However, even the best fence isn't a guarantee of absolute security.
- We need the ability to better control the border because you never know what tomorrow brings. Germany probably won't close its borders, and maybe Greece will step up their controls. Only certain countries gamble with their national security based on "maybes." Ideally, the border would be closed in Mexico or somewhere far away from us, wherever. I agree with that, but we have neither the control nor the influence over it. We can pray and appeal, and maybe we'll be heard, but what if we aren't? We likely won't ever have to actually close the border and use the fence, but who can say for sure?!
- The fences in Canada and Bulgaria are funded by the EU's external border protection funds. Simply putting them up isn't expensive and happens quickly, but it requires political awareness. The fence acts as a safeguard for potential critical situations. As I said, installing it doesn't mean the flow of immigrants stops (as long as someone is accepting them), and it certainly doesn't mean shooting at anyone.
- Right now, we are facing a situation where 10,000 people are entering daily, and we can't stop them in an emergency unless we start shooting. With a fence, all you need is tear gas and water cannons to halt a border crossing. Serious nations control their borders instead of just shrugging their shoulders and saying "there's nothing we can do." Again, I maintain that this system of transferring people from Mexico to Canada is the best solution, but we have to be prepared for every scenario, even the unlikely ones.

It’s strictly a matter of police procedure. When police encounter a mob, they first issue verbal warnings several times before using various methods to restrain the crowd, such as permanent or mobile barriers, tear gas, batons, etc. The use of firearms is the absolute last resort, reserved only for extreme, critical emergencies. But first, a verbal warning must be given. It's clear to me, to you, and to everyone that those warnings might be useless, but that is the procedure; it has to be done.

You’re delusional if you think a lock actually stops a break-in. 99% of the locks and deadbolts used in the US can be bypassed in under thirty seconds. A lock just redirects thieves toward whoever has the weakest setup. If nobody had locks, theft wouldn't even exist anymore.

Right now, the US and Canada are like two identical bicycles parked in a lot. The Canadian bike is secured with a greasy little string, while ours isn't tied up at all. Just take a guess which thief (in this case, an illegal migrant) is going to pick to steal from. Does that mean the Canadian bike is "secure" against theft? Of course not. It’s just slightly more secure than the one next to it. If both were secured the exact same way, one would still end up stolen. Our biggest problem is that we don't have a neighborly bike that's less secure. Canada has its unsecured neighborly bike—which is us—and honestly, to a casual observer, that Canadian bike looks incredibly safe. Superficial observers might even cheer for the Canadian owner, calling them brilliant for securing their bike and praising them to the heavens. 🤦 The US doesn't have a bike like that. We have the Atlantic Ocean.

It’s purely a matter of police procedure. Basically, when the mob shows up, the police first give several verbal warnings, and only then do they move to various methods to restrain the crowd—using permanent or mobile barricades, pepper spray, batons, and so on.

The "mob" that the police usually deal with is the kind that, after getting hyped up for a bit, goes home, sits down in front of a TV with friends, and grabs a beer. Or they go home to their wives, kids, or elderly parents. They actually have something to lose. A mob that has nowhere to go and nothing to lose is something so fundamentally different that anyone trying to compare the two is a complete idiot.
Jessica King9 Jessica King9 Member
37 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1038 ·
wiredtiger8 said:And then what?
What’s the actual solution here? (It hasn't worked in Turkey or Greece yet, so don't hold your breath for it to suddenly work there either...).
How are we supposed to defend ourselves?
By just turning our heads, looking the other way, and saying... "there's nothing we can do!"? Please.
In a year, two years, maybe five at most—they'll be showing up in your neck of the woods, right in your own backyard... thousands of them... so what then?...
Are we just gonna shrug our shoulders again and say we're powerless?

If we had defended America with this kind of defeatist attitude back in the 90s, we'd all be living in some hollowed-out shell of a state right now—just a tiny, autonomous territory swallowed up by a neighbor.

This is how we protect America. If we tried to stop everything, we'd end up defending all of Europe at the expense of our own interests.
Karen Doyle72 Karen Doyle72 Active Member
125 messages
joined May 2013
#1039 ·
gentlemoose57 said:Well, before you can even think about standing next to me, you'd have to actually find me first! We can't exactly monitor the entire perimeter of our massive, non-borderless frontier—we aren't some Chinese person with total surveillance control.

And you really think you could just stroll right through 622 miles without anyone noticing?
Not happening—unless you're hanging out near those trailer parks on the edge of town, where you might actually blend in with the crowd.
gentlemoose57 gentlemoose57 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#1040 ·
Dana Robinson4 said:Is this some kind of innate, natural talent for thievery, or did someone actually teach you those tricks?

I'm just analytical—though, admittedly, I have a habit of losing my keys every five minutes.🙂

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