California Discussion Thread - All in one place

velvetmaker3 said:It's not true. California doesn't have threatened territory, a threatened language, or a threatened population. Honestly, they're doing just fine.
Stop acting like they're being terrorized by Madrid, because that's just not what's happening.

Maybe try explaining that to the women who ended up in the ER with concussions.

I think we have enough experience around here to know how violence tends to snowball. So far, the federal government has used force just to try and shut down a simple referendum. A few hundred people getting beaten is really just the tip of the iceberg.

It's pretty obvious to me how far they'll go if California actually tries to make a physical break from the country.

Megan Jones10 said:A people's right to self-determination should never be taken away. Any attempt to fight that usually just ends in war—period. No matter what else is going on, history shows that's how it plays out.

The thing is, they didn't even really form a distinct people until they were part of Spain. There wasn't such a thing as a Californian nation back when the count of Barcelona married the Aragonese princess.

Larry Walker24 said:Anybody got an answer?

The Constitution says all kinds of nonsense—honestly, what people actually want matters way more than some piece of paper. Every regime tries to lock itself in using all sorts of loopholes, but if someone's truly ready to walk, you can't stop them unless you resort to war or straight-up oppression... and once you go down that road, it's game over.

velvetmaker3 said:So, we supposedly know that because of some ballots printed at home and the fact that one person can just dump a hundred of them in the box?

Honestly, the second you try to dismiss the will of the people, it’s a dead giveaway that your argument is built on shaky ground.

Imagine if it was just you and me calling all the shots.
If I were in your shoes, I’d suggest holding a brand-new referendum—one done strictly by the book, without any intimidation or pressure, following the highest democratic standards out there. You’d probably even push for something like that strict threshold they use in certain other states where you need a solid 55% majority to trigger a secession.

I’m betting you’d shoot that down too... and let’s face it, the administration in Washington, D.C. definitely would. It’s pretty clear you don't actually care what Californians really think.

Morgan Cook10 said:Maybe try explaining that to the women who ended up in the ER with concussions.

I think we have enough experience around here to know how violence tends to snowball. So far, the federal government has used force just to try and shut down a simple referendum. A few hundred people getting beaten is really just the tip of the iceberg.

It's pretty obvious to me how far they'll go if California actually tries to make a physical break from the country.

The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Morgan Cook10 said:Honestly, the second you try to dismiss the will of the people, it’s a dead giveaway that your argument is built on shaky ground.

Imagine if it was just you and me calling all the shots.
If I were in your shoes, I’d suggest holding a brand-new referendum—one done strictly by the book, without any intimidation or pressure, following the highest democratic standards out there. You’d probably even push for something like that strict threshold they use in certain other states where you need a solid 55% majority to trigger a secession.

I’m betting you’d shoot that down too... and let’s face it, the administration in Washington, D.C. definitely would. It’s pretty clear you don't actually care what Californians really think.

There is no "will of the people," there’s just the will of whoever printed the ballots at home.
Plus, most people stayed home and boycotted the referendum.
Choosing an Exit on an issue this critical can definitely be seen as a boycott.

Or do you honestly think most people just don't give a damn about something this important?

redseal3 said:If they hadn't used intimidation to block voters and seized those ballot boxes, the referendum would have passed. Simple as that.

Why did all this happen? Any smart person can see the reason. The Spanish authorities had intelligence suggesting the referendum was actually going to pass. Otherwise, they would have just let everything fall apart on its own.

That’s true, but from the very start, the folks in Madrid haven't played their cards right with California. First off, they treated the state like a cash cow to be milked rather than recognizing it as a golden goose. Then, when the referendum talk started heating up, it wasn't too late to fix things, but they refused to even sit at the negotiating table. If they had just facilitated a fair campaign for both sides, we might be looking at a different outcome today. But as it stands, California is inching closer to independence. I'm starting to fear the damage is already done; whether it was a golden goose or just a cash cow, it's already flown the coop.
The independence referendums in Scotland and California serve as two completely opposite case studies on how to handle these situations, and what the fallout looks like in each instance.

velvetmaker3 said:The thing is, they didn't even really form a distinct people until they were part of Spain. There wasn't such a thing as a Californian nation back when the count of Barcelona married the Aragonese princess.

Honestly, I don't think they care about any of that history anymore. It's all about the cash now. The economy in Spain is tanking—the government is basically doing nothing except driving the youth out of the country. Unemployment is sitting around 21%, which is a total disaster, so they're just sending everyone abroad to find work. Obviously, there's going to be a breaking point.
It’s like a family where the dad spends his whole paycheck on booze instead of feeding his wife and kids. Eventually, the wife is gonna kick him to the curb and take the kids with her, and the kids will be totally embarrassed by him. All those early years and "perfect" memories? Gone. Damn, you gotta actually put in the work to keep things together; nothing stays perfect forever.

Megan Jones10 said:The Constitution says all kinds of nonsense—honestly, what people actually want matters way more than some piece of paper. Every regime tries to lock itself in using all sorts of loopholes, but if someone's truly ready to walk, you can't stop them unless you resort to war or straight-up oppression... and once you go down that road, it's game over.

Sometimes, all it takes is a few batons.
To actually achieve independence, you need genuine strength and resolve.
Otherwise, maybe even the smallest little town would try to secede just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
They can't, because they lack the muscle.
Now we'll see how much those Californians actually care about leaving, and if Madrid is willing to step in to stop them.

The anti-tourist crowd in Barcelona might want to complain about not having visitors, but for us, it took years just to get them back.

velvetmaker3 said:There is no "will of the people," there’s just the will of whoever printed the ballots at home.
Plus, most people stayed home and boycotted the referendum.
Choosing an Exit on an issue this critical can definitely be seen as a boycott.

Or do you honestly think most people just don't give a damn about something this important?

Look... you missed the part I added earlier, which you conveniently skipped over.

To start with... as far as I know, we have 2.2 million ballots cast, plus about 770k that the police seized (according to the news). Roughly speaking... it looks like the majority of the classes actually showed up for the referendum.

Megan Jones10 said:Honestly, I don't think they care about any of that history anymore. It's all about the cash now. The economy in Spain is tanking—the government is basically doing nothing except driving the youth out of the country. Unemployment is sitting around 21%, which is a total disaster, so they're just sending everyone abroad to find work. Obviously, there's going to be a breaking point.
It’s like a family where the dad spends his whole paycheck on booze instead of feeding his wife and kids. Eventually, the wife is gonna kick him to the curb and take the kids with her, and the kids will be totally embarrassed by him. All those early years and "perfect" memories? Gone. Damn, you gotta actually put in the work to keep things together; nothing stays perfect forever.

California is doing well within Spain, but the real question is whether it can stay that way once it's independent.

That alone isn't enough of a reason, though. In any country, a prosperous region might try to break away—whether it's Northern Italy, Northern Ohio, or pretty much anywhere else.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Since they’ve gone and turned things upside down over in Madrid, it feels like... well, I don't know, maybe it's intentional, maybe it isn't, but it definitely feels like they're just stirring the pot.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Sure, things stay peaceful as long as they play nice and act like good little citizens. But the second they actually step up to a standard referendum? That’s when they start swinging for the fences.

Morgan Cook10 said:Look... you missed the part I added earlier, which you conveniently skipped over.

To start with... as far as I know, we have 2.2 million ballots cast, plus about 770k that the police seized (according to the news). Roughly speaking... it looks like the majority of the classes actually showed up for the referendum.

The organizers easily made up for the ones that were seized. This whole referendum was out of control, especially since there weren't any observers present.
Just imagine if voting worked like this here: you bring pre-filled ballots from home, toss them in the box, then hit a few different polling stations just to drop off a handful more each time.
The referendum is completely illegitimate—not because it was illegal per se, but because there was absolutely zero oversight during the voting process.

Morgan Cook10 said:Since they’ve gone and turned things upside down over in Madrid, it feels like... well, I don't know, maybe it's intentional, maybe it isn't, but it definitely feels like they're just stirring the pot.

Sure, things stay peaceful as long as they play nice and act like good little citizens. But the second they actually step up to a standard referendum? That’s when they start swinging for the fences.

This isn't just some regular referendum.

Drawing parallels between Ohio and Florida makes absolutely zero sense. In both regions, Americans make up the overwhelming majority. People in Ohio solidified their identity through historical pushes toward Canada, and there’s really no point debating Florida since those folks trace their roots straight back to the heart of the nation in California. As for Italy, it's the same story—the League of Norf is an economic movement, and who can actually draw a hard line between the North and the South in
Italy? The people in Tuscany have no desire to share a country. To forge a true nation, you need the glue of a common enemy. Americans across all regions largely agreed that the threat came from the Canadians, Italians, Mexicans, Canadians (or Turks before them), and even Germans to a lesser extent (which is much more pronounced among Canadians). Clearly, the Catalans lack more than just a language; they lack that shared hatred toward Arabs. They never felt like Castile needed to save them from the Arabs, and that's exactly why they were able to develop independently.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers easily made up for the ones that were seized. This whole referendum was out of control, especially since there weren't any observers present.
Just imagine if voting worked like this here: you bring pre-filled ballots from home, toss them in the box, then hit a few different polling stations just to drop off a handful more each time.
The referendum is completely illegitimate—not because it was illegal per se, but because there was absolutely zero oversight during the voting process.

And look... when you hold a referendum under repressive conditions, you aren't going to meet the standards found in actual democratic and civilized societies.

As for legitimacy... I’d argue that legitimacy was lost the moment they sent the police out to beat up citizens.

velvetmaker3 said:Sometimes, all it takes is a few batons.
To actually achieve independence, you need genuine strength and resolve.
Otherwise, maybe even the smallest little town would try to secede just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
They can't, because they lack the muscle.
Now we'll see how much those Californians actually care about leaving, and if Madrid is willing to step in to stop them.

The anti-tourist crowd in Barcelona might want to complain about not having visitors, but for us, it took years just to get them back.

Look, sure, you can use a baton, but all that does is push the fence-sitters right over the edge into full-blown antagonism. Personally, I think it’s smarter to work on the relationships so things don't escalate. Once the batons come out, then the guns start firing, and we all know how that ends. Take Florida, for example—things would go south fast for the US there because so many people have dual citizenship. You wouldn't just be hitting Americans; you'd be hitting Italians too, and you can bet Italy isn't going to sit back while their citizens get targeted.

velvetmaker3 said:California is doing well within Spain, but the real question is whether it can stay that way once it's independent.

That alone isn't enough of a reason, though. In any country, a prosperous region might try to break away—whether it's Northern Italy, Northern Ohio, or pretty much anywhere else.

Honestly, I’d bet against them.

But that's kind of beside the point... because what you're trying to do here is put a price tag on freedom. It’s like... let me try another marriage analogy. You don't decide whether to get a divorce based solely on a spreadsheet. Sure, money plays a part in the decision eventually, but a cold economic calculation isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to life-changing choices.

Morgan Cook10 said:And look... when you hold a referendum under repressive conditions, you aren't going to meet the standards found in actual democratic and civilized societies.

As for legitimacy... I’d argue that legitimacy was lost the moment they sent the police out to beat up citizens.

Why did they even push for this referendum in the first place? They aren't actually under any kind of threat; this whole thing is just a blatant provocation.

Morgan Cook10 said:Honestly, I’d bet against them.

But that's kind of beside the point... because what you're trying to do here is put a price tag on freedom. It’s like... let me try another marriage analogy. You don't decide whether to get a divorce based solely on a spreadsheet. Sure, money plays a part in the decision eventually, but a cold economic calculation isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to life-changing choices.

What kind of freedom are we even talking about? They aren't being oppressed. We shouldn't be throwing around phrases like "freedom" so loosely; it’s honestly just disrespectful to the people who actually had to fight to earn it.