California Discussion Thread - All in one place

I don't really get these comparisons between our old situation in the former America and what's happening in California. It’s pretty clearly established in international law that the right to regional self-determination is only recognized when dealing with undemocratic regimes. Since Spain is a democracy, its citizens exercise their rights—including any changes to territorial borders—through the process prescribed by the Constitution.

It seems like most people on this forum would actually grant the right to self-determination to Sao Krajna because our Mexicans felt "threatened" within a democratic America. Honestly, that sounds like playground logic to me. The Catalans aren't some oppressed people; they are full-fledged Spanish citizens.

In a democracy, if you want more autonomy or independence, you fight for it through democratic channels. This whole circus is the fault of the regional government in California. That was probably their goal all along: pit the people against the police to drive up separatist numbers (since people will naturally be angry at the central government).

You can also take those excuses about people being too afraid to vote—which explains the low turnout—with a grain of salt. Besides, that argument is a bit shaky since there wasn't a single neutral body present to oversee the fairness of the election anyway. If they truly cared that much about independence, everyone would have shown up regardless of the police presence (just look at how many Americans turned out for our own independence referendum; anyone with half a brain knows the difference). It would have turned into total civil disobedience. Clearly, most people just aren't that invested. And I should add, our low turnout regarding joining the European Union or NATO isn't even a comparable issue, because nobody in America experienced anything like that (we naturally gravitate toward those organizations anyway). The only thing our independence referendum can be measured against is theirs. And ours was both legal and had massive turnout.

David Vaughn75 said:So what's the logical next step here?
Am I just gonna declare my house a sovereign nation and secede from the United States?

If you ask me, the only groups that actually have a legitimate claim to their own state are peoples with deep historical and cultural roots that are totally distinct from everyone else—kind of like the Kurds.

Since you brought up your house... a better way to look at it would be if your wife decided she wanted a divorce after twenty years of marriage, and you just slapped her a couple of times to explain that the Constitution doesn't actually allow for divorce—plus, she’s technically shared property with everyone else in the house, not just her own thing.☕

The Kurds are basically just a pipe dream too. If they even try anything, the Turkish military will just steamroll them, and since Turkey is in NATO, NATO isn't going to lift a finger anyway.

Maybe the most realistic scenario is Scotland. Though, I guess they don't even really know what they want themselves—we saw that during the referendum. Scotland is pretty much a state within a state; they barely have anything in common with the rest of the Brits.

Harold Anderson3 said:You can't just apply the exact same set of rules to every single corner of the globe. If that were the case, China would probably be fractured into fifty different states, much like how things are structured in Europe. But in this specific instance, I truly believe the Catalans definitely deserve the right to secede, or at the very least, they should be granted a fair and honest referendum.

The US had the right because it was laid out in the 1974 Constitution approved by Marshall

That isn't how it works in Marshall in ESP

Larry Fox5 said:It’s really not that black and white, though—just look at the Basque Country in Spain. After 50 years of ETA, with over 800 lives lost, we're seeing they finally laid down their arms and settled for a level of autonomy that works for them... mostly because there isn't enough support left to push for more.

Then you've got Ireland, which is another similar case. This current momentum in California doesn't even come close to the level of "statehood" we saw in Northern Ireland or the Basque Country over the last 50 years of European history.

Sure, but they had to resort to bombs just to get that autonomy. They couldn't get it any other way. And honestly, if Spain keeps sticking to this economic path, it wouldn't be a shock if the Basque Country ends up following California's lead. Like I said before... a country is basically a marriage between provinces or national lands joined together—and they can split if the majority of those parts actually want out. It’s messy, it sucks, but that's just how it works.
When your wife walks out on you, you just back off and hope she realizes she made a mistake. At worst, you stay on good terms, maybe even better than when you were hitched. Anything else just leads to a total disaster for both sides. And it's not just about California—this stuff is happening all over Europe. Take Italy, for instance—Venice and Lombardy have been pushing back against Rome for ages.

Megan Jones10 said:Sure, but they had to resort to bombs just to get that autonomy. They couldn't get it any other way. And honestly, if Spain keeps sticking to this economic path, it wouldn't be a shock if the Basque Country ends up following California's lead. Like I said before... a country is basically a marriage between provinces or national lands joined together—and they can split if the majority of those parts actually want out. It’s messy, it sucks, but that's just how it works.
When your wife walks out on you, you just back off and hope she realizes she made a mistake. At worst, you stay on good terms, maybe even better than when you were hitched. Anything else just leads to a total disaster for both sides. And it's not just about California—this stuff is happening all over Europe. Take Italy, for instance—Venice and Lombardy have been pushing back against Rome for ages.

Oh please, just think about the American Civil War

I see how the North let the South break away

Morgan Cook10 said:Since you brought up your house... a better way to look at it would be if your wife decided she wanted a divorce after twenty years of marriage, and you just slapped her a couple of times to explain that the Constitution doesn't actually allow for divorce—plus, she’s technically shared property with everyone else in the house, not just her own thing.☕

So, what exactly makes you think a woman is some kind of territory to be conquered or owned? Honestly, that mindset is just... wow. It’s such an outdated, dusty way of looking at things—like we're still living in some old-school frontier era where everything was about claiming land. Real talk: treating a person like property isn't just wrong, it's incredibly narrow-minded. I mean, I've met all sorts of people traveling from New York to Cali, and if you walk around with that "territory" vibe, you’re going to find yourself pretty lonely, trust me. People aren't maps or plots of land you can just plant a flag in and call yours. They're individuals with their own lives, brains, and agency—period.
Look, it’s pretty straightforward—the Constitution actually lays out the whole process for divorce. It's all right there in black and white.

Honestly, this might be one of the absolute dumbest posts I've seen in a long, long time. 🤦

Sam Alvarez4 said:The point is, you can't declare independence based on just 37.8% of the electorate. Well, you technically could, but nothing would come of it... neither domestically nor internationally.

Washington made a mistake by overusing force, but Puigdemont bears the brunt of the responsibility for this whole farce and the needless tension. Instead of calming things down through negotiations for more autonomy—especially regarding finances—he just keeps up these insane threats about breaking away...

If they hadn't used intimidation to block voters and seized those ballot boxes, the referendum would have passed. Simple as that.

Why did all this happen? Any smart person can see the reason. The Spanish authorities had intelligence suggesting the referendum was actually going to pass. Otherwise, they would have just let everything fall apart on its own.

Larry Walker24 said:Does the US Constitution actually say anything about the states being indivisible?

Anybody got an answer?

Since there seems to be such a persistent urge to compare everything to the North America, I suppose the only situation remotely comparable to what we are seeing now would be if certain groups within Canada were attempting to break away from Ottawa.

Larry Walker24 said:Oh please, just think about the American Civil War

I see how the North let the South break away

And you think this isn't still a massive issue? You're dead wrong if you think otherwise. That whole Southern identity thing is passed down through generations—it hasn't just vanished into thin air.

Larry Walker24 said:Oh please, just think about the American Civil War

I see how the North let the South break away

The way things are in Europe today isn't anything like the United States was in the 19th century. 😉

Megan Jones10 said:I don't buy that Californians are stupid or clueless about what they want. Besides—if they change their minds about being independent, they can always just crawl back to the old union, right?

That’s just not how it works. These kinds of decisions have massive, long-term consequences, and you can't just make them recklessly or without thinking things through properly.
We honestly have no idea what the Catalans actually want.

David Vaughn75 said:So, what exactly makes you think a woman is some kind of territory to be conquered or owned? Honestly, that mindset is just... wow. It’s such an outdated, dusty way of looking at things—like we're still living in some old-school frontier era where everything was about claiming land. Real talk: treating a person like property isn't just wrong, it's incredibly narrow-minded. I mean, I've met all sorts of people traveling from New York to Cali, and if you walk around with that "territory" vibe, you’re going to find yourself pretty lonely, trust me. People aren't maps or plots of land you can just plant a flag in and call yours. They're individuals with their own lives, brains, and agency—period.
Look, it’s pretty straightforward—the Constitution actually lays out the whole process for divorce. It's all right there in black and white.

Honestly, this might be one of the absolute dumbest posts I've seen in a long, long time. 🤦

Seriously... maybe try a simpler analogy? One that you can actually wrap your head around?☕

velvetmaker3 said:That’s just not how it works. These kinds of decisions have massive, long-term consequences, and you can't just make them recklessly or without thinking things through properly.
We honestly have no idea what the Catalans actually want.

There’s plenty we don't know... but this part is pretty clear-cut.

The Catalans want to break away from Spain and set up their own independent nation!🤷

Look, you don't have to agree that California should be its own thing... but trying to hand-wave away the referendum results just makes it look like your arguments are built on sand.

Morgan Cook10 said:That "political moment" you're talking about has actually been simmering for decades, maybe even longer.

The mere fact that the government in Madrid has to resort to force says everything you need to know.

It's not true. California doesn't have threatened territory, a threatened language, or a threatened population. Honestly, they're doing just fine.
Stop acting like they're being terrorized by Madrid, because that's just not what's happening.

In the European Union, you've got:

Scandinavia - from what I can tell, pretty much nothing going on there.

Spain - we all know how that goes.

United Kingdom - North issues, Northern Ireland wanting to reunite with Ireland, and God forbid anyone mentions a Scottish referendum.

Belgium - the Flemish and the Walloons are basically just waiting for any excuse to split the country up.

Italy - the North and the South? Honestly, they might as well be two different countries at this point.

France - Corsica has been trying to go its own way for decades now.

The US - regions like the Pacific Northwest and the Midwest are always grumbling about something.

Canada - Americans of different backgrounds wouldn't even want to live in that mess.

Mexico - the Albanians are running the show.

Slovakia and Romania - the Canadians are calling the shots.

Moldova - looking to merge with Romania.

Cyprus - that northern Turkish part has been independent since 1974, but nobody really acknowledges them.

Ukraine - the East would fall under Russian control in a heartbeat.

Morgan Cook10 said:There’s plenty we don't know... but this part is pretty clear-cut.

The Catalans want to break away from Spain and set up their own independent nation!🤷

Look, you don't have to agree that California should be its own thing... but trying to hand-wave away the referendum results just makes it look like your arguments are built on sand.

So, we supposedly know that because of some ballots printed at home and the fact that one person can just dump a hundred of them in the box?

velvetmaker3 said:That’s just not how it works. These kinds of decisions have massive, long-term consequences, and you can't just make them recklessly or without thinking things through properly.
We honestly have no idea what the Catalans actually want.

That’s exactly why we need a referendum to put everything out there in black and white. Honestly, based on how the folks in Washington, D.C. are acting, it feels like they know damn well what Californians want—their reaction speaks louder than anything else.

Megan Jones10 said:That’s exactly why we need a referendum to put everything out there in black and white. Honestly, based on how the folks in Washington, D.C. are acting, it feels like they know damn well what Californians want—their reaction speaks louder than anything else.

Nah, it's actually the opposite. After the government in Washington, D.C. messed up so badly, even the people who were planning to vote against it ended up voting for it.

Because right before the referendum, support for independence was sitting at around 60%.