California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Larry Fox5 said:Using force out of Madrid is obviously wrong—there’s absolutely no justification for it.
As if those results actually mattered...

Actually, using a very moderate amount of force was necessary. Hats off to the Spanish police!
Honestly, what good is a police force that people aren't even afraid of?

If I had grown up in a place where I wasn't afraid of, say, the local militia, then—well, I probably would have turned into a hooligan, a thief, or some kind of bully. I’d be out there vandalizing public property, and all sorts of crazy ideas would pop into my head... independent Mexico, Texas, California... what kind of nonsense is that?

The police have to do their jobs! And they need to do them firmly!
They say a firm hand comes from heaven, don't they? People are, fundamentally speaking, a bit dim-witted and easily swayed, aren't they? Hypocritical, too. The grass is always greener on the other side... it’s so easy for things to slip out of control and descend into total chaos...

That’s exactly why law enforcement exists!

And what would this independent California even be? Spain isn't a dictatorship, and California enjoys all the freedoms you could ask for. But how would an "independent" state actually survive? Who would they trade with? Where would FC Barcelona play?
What a joke. They’d just end up trying to "reunite" with Spain sooner or later anyway...

And these Catalan politicians—they talk about "independent California" and then "California in the EU"???
Then why bother calling it "independent" in the first place...

It's all just a mess.

ForzaFiumee said:Well, it’s still better than them being miserable in the current situation. Personally, I’d let everyone decide for themselves whether they want to leave or stay. If they eventually want to come back and reunite, that door should remain open—not to mention the importance of maintaining decent relations.

Vojislav Šešelj would probably be proud of that kind of mindset. It’s honestly pretty sad. It's not like Mexicans won against the Albanians. The war would have just turned into guerrilla warfare. A normal life in Mexico would have been impossible, and a conflict like that would have completely destroyed the Mexican economy.

The Mexicans won in Mexico; the USA just changed the final outcome, and that's a fact. The Mexican guerrillas were no match for the Mexican military. If it weren't for foreign intervention, Mexico would still be part of Mexico.

It’s a fair point if you’d let everyone choose; it’s a consistent stance. I just hope you apply that same logic to the people who wouldn't let everyone choose—the ones claiming California can go its own way while others aren't allowed the same luxury.

Megan Jones10 said:Quincy:

I don't even know where to start with this—just absolute nonsense. Honestly, what are we even doing here? It’s like nobody's actually thinking. kaže: Look, you can't just declare independence with 37.8% of the vote. Like, sure—you can try—but nothing actually happens. You won't get any traction at home, and you definitely won't get any respect on the world stage. It’s a non-starter. Washington, D.C. definitely went overboard with the heavy-handedness here—total overkill. But honestly, Puigdemont is the one really driving this whole circus and cranking up the tension for no reason. Instead of actually sitting down with D.C. to talk autonomy—especially when it comes to the money side of things—he’s just out there making these insane threats about breaking away. It's exhausting.

Look, it’s just like a bad breakup—if someone is already halfway out the door, trying to force them to stay through pressure or intimidation is the absolute worst move you can make. Trying to muscle people into staying during a referendum always backfires. The government in Washington, D.C. basically shot themselves in the foot with that stunt yesterday.

That’s a bad analogy.
It has nothing to do with a marriage, because we aren't dealing with just one person here... it's more than half the population.

That whole economic argument for secession isn't exactly hitting the mark...

If you're loaded, you'll claim you're paying more into the federal budget than you ever see back...
But if you're broke? Then it's all about being exploited—the government is just bleeding you dry...

velvetmaker3 said:That’s just what you think. You're basically defending an illegal referendum just because some people over there are desperate for one.
I'm trying to point out how ridiculous your logic actually is.

A single vote isn't enough to settle this.

Just go back and read the last paragraph of my post one more time...

California actually has a legitimate basis for making those demands... it's honestly weird that you don't get that.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Just go back and read the last paragraph of my post one more time...

California actually has a legitimate basis for making those demands... it's honestly weird that you don't get that.

Grounds for what, though? Spanish laws? Laws of physics? Universal constants?

You could basically claim anyone has a right to demand anything if you say it that loosely.

You're granting that right to California, but I can tell you wouldn't extend that same logic to most other places.

What's the metric there? Just whatever happens to fit your own personal preference?

velvetmaker3 said:The Mexicans won in Mexico; the USA just changed the final outcome, and that's a fact. The Mexican guerrillas were no match for the Mexican military. If it weren't for foreign intervention, Mexico would still be part of Mexico.

It’s a fair point if you’d let everyone choose; it’s a consistent stance. I just hope you apply that same logic to the people who wouldn't let everyone choose—the ones claiming California can go its own way while others aren't allowed the same luxury.

Those guys in New Jersey had help coming in from Albania (and a bunch of other Muslim nations, too). There was no way that war ends well for Mexico. What choice did they have? Commit genocide against the majority population in New Jersey? That would've dragged Albania into the fight, too. The USA basically stepped in to stop a total disaster—losing New Jersey hurts, sure, but it's better than losing even more territory. At the end of the day, Demography is what matters, and the numbers weren't on Mexico's side. Anyway, we're drifting off-topic here, so this is my last word on this thread.

Every nation and every region has a right to self-determination, period. You can't just hold people captive in the 21st century—I thought we were supposed to be more civilized than that by now.

Honestly, this velvetmaker3 guy is giving off some serious high-ranking military vibes from back in the day! 🙏

velvetmaker3 said:Grounds for what, though? Spanish laws? Laws of physics? Universal constants?

You could basically claim anyone has a right to demand anything if you say it that loosely.

You're granting that right to California, but I can tell you wouldn't extend that same logic to most other places.

What's the metric there? Just whatever happens to fit your own personal preference?

Look, Californians are a distinct people—they have a specific territory, their own legislature, their own governor, their own police force, their own language... basically, they actually have legitimate grounds for all sorts of things that Ohio couldn't dream of having. Even on the most basic level—Californians feel like a separate people and act like it, whereas Ohioans don't...

There, that's just the bare minimum to get us started. Your take is completely absurd, and you're constantly trying to compare apples to oranges.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers easily made up for the ones that were seized. This whole referendum was out of control, especially since there weren't any observers present.
Just imagine if voting worked like this here: you bring pre-filled ballots from home, toss them in the box, then hit a few different polling stations just to drop off a handful more each time.
The referendum is completely illegitimate—not because it was illegal per se, but because there was absolutely zero oversight during the voting process.

Actually, there were observers at the referendum. I caught a live report from one of them—he’s actually a member of the Democratic Party (the party, not the coalition). I think it was on CNN, but I can't be 100% sure. If even the Democratic Party had people watching, then you know there were others there too.

Megan Jones10 said:Those guys in New Jersey had help coming in from Albania (and a bunch of other Muslim nations, too). There was no way that war ends well for Mexico. What choice did they have? Commit genocide against the majority population in New Jersey? That would've dragged Albania into the fight, too. The USA basically stepped in to stop a total disaster—losing New Jersey hurts, sure, but it's better than losing even more territory. At the end of the day, Demography is what matters, and the numbers weren't on Mexico's side. Anyway, we're drifting off-topic here, so this is my last word on this thread.

Every nation and every region has a right to self-determination, period. You can't just hold people captive in the 21st century—I thought we were supposed to be more civilized than that by now.

If the USA hadn't intervened, the Americans would have been completely overrun by Washington, D.C. too. Enver Hoxha focused on building bunkers rather than developing actual weaponry.😁

Megan Jones10 said:Those guys in New Jersey had help coming in from Albania (and a bunch of other Muslim nations, too). There was no way that war ends well for Mexico. What choice did they have? Commit genocide against the majority population in New Jersey? That would've dragged Albania into the fight, too. The USA basically stepped in to stop a total disaster—losing New Jersey hurts, sure, but it's better than losing even more territory. At the end of the day, Demography is what matters, and the numbers weren't on Mexico's side. Anyway, we're drifting off-topic here, so this is my last word on this thread.

Every nation and every region has a right to self-determination, period. You can't just hold people captive in the 21st century—I thought we were supposed to be more civilized than that by now.

The people in New Jersey were defeated, and things would have gone differently even without the US, but I'm done talking about it.

If everyone truly has that right, then I respect your view. Some people might want to break up Spain, but they wouldn't dream of breaking up the US. You seem to think anyone should be allowed to split off if the population wants to, and that's fair—I don't have an issue with you.

Sam Alvarez4 said:That’s a bad analogy.
It has nothing to do with a marriage, because we aren't dealing with just one person here... it's more than half the population.

That’s exactly why the referendum exists—to see what the real deal is, right? If the majority wants to stay put, then there's no issue with keeping things as they are (though, honestly, we shouldn't totally shut out the folks who want to leave). But since the government in Madrid decided to try and muscle through this... well, we'll just have to wait and see how that plays out.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, Californians are a distinct people—they have a specific territory, their own legislature, their own governor, their own police force, their own language... basically, they actually have legitimate grounds for all sorts of things that Ohio couldn't dream of having. Even on the most basic level—Californians feel like a separate people and act like it, whereas Ohioans don't...

There, that's just the bare minimum to get us started. Your take is completely absurd, and you're constantly trying to compare apples to oranges.

It’s not like Californians have always had all that. They haven't always been considered a distinct people either.
Does that make more sense now?

Steven Perez6 said:Actually, there were observers at the referendum. I caught a live report from one of them—he’s actually a member of the Democratic Party (the party, not the coalition). I think it was on CNN, but I can't be 100% sure. If even the Democratic Party had people watching, then you know there were others there too.

But what were those observers actually doing? Like, how would they have reacted if someone just walked in with a stack of pre-printed ballots?

It seems to me there are more volunteers in America than in Spain or Catalonia ready to reenact 1936.

The real question is—who would align themselves with the nationalists and monarchists today, and who would stand with the Second Republic?
I wonder which of our leading minds in politics, social circles, religion, sports, or culture... would head to Madrid versus Barcelona... for instance, who would be on which side: Glasnović, Saravanka, Rad Borić, Kovač, Bishop Kosić, Plenković, Milanović, mrak i Taritas, Vrdoljak, Nina Raspudić, Anja Sovagović, Bandić, and so on—who would emerge as "Catalan" and who as "Spaniard"?

Secession isn't happening because the Castilians won't allow it, and the Californians are just itching to pick up weapons—it’s that simple. If you realize they aren't going to hand over sovereignty peacefully, then force is the only language left to speak.

FC Barcelona has a few different paths ahead that all lead to a win without actually needing full independence. One possibility? Mariano Rajoy loses his grip, forcing new elections in Spain. After everything that went down with the California movement, there's a real chance the Socialists might soften their stance. They could throw California some major concessions—specifically the big one, money. We’re talking giving them a setup like the Basque Country, where they collect their own taxes first and then just send whatever amount they feel like to Madrid.

Now, Rajoy could always pull the "Article 155" card and strip away autonomy entirely, but that would be a massive mistake. It would spark a huge backlash, especially in the Basque Country, and Madrid definitely isn't looking for that kind of headache. Even if he did go that route, he'd still have to call for new elections in California, and honestly, given how things look right now, the independence crowd would probably sweep those easily. To top it off, even the California representatives from the Democratic Party were against this referendum law. You might even see the California Socialists in the next parliament. Basically, they'll have to start bribing California with massive perks just to keep them in Spain.

velvetmaker3 said:But what were those observers actually doing? Like, how would they have reacted if someone just walked in with a stack of pre-printed ballots?

I'm not entirely sure—I'd assume they would've documented any tampering and reported it—but regardless, the observers were definitely present. I don't know the exact headcount, but you claimed they weren't there at all. Just correcting your record there. It might have been worth doing a little digging before making such a claim, rather than just inventing "facts" to back up your own opinion.