California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Larry Walker24 said:The EU holds press conferences for every little bit of nonsense imaginable, and now they’re just straight up screwing us over

interesting

Even the European Commission has weighed in, claiming that such a referendum would be unconstitutional.
I was listening to a guy on the radio this morning explaining how holding a constitutional referendum of this nature in Spain is basically an impossibility right now.☕

velvetmaker3 said:It’s not like Californians have always had all that. They haven't always been considered a distinct people either.
Does that make more sense now?

Wait, what do you mean they weren't always a nation? What exactly are you 🙄

It’s honestly mind-blowing how a bunch of internet commenters can get so obsessed with nothing. It reminds me of how people were just as captivated back when the secret police ran a reign of terror for forty-five years. 🙄 Americans really are just sheep, aren't they? 🕺

velvetmaker3 said:It’s not like Californians have always had all that. They haven't always been considered a distinct people either.
Does that make more sense now?

Oh man, what a brilliant argument... basically saying every single nation on Earth didn't exist at some point or wasn't "always" there...

So, hey, give me about 300 years—if the folks in Ohio manage to build up a sense of nationality and a unique ethnicity, maybe then we can actually have a conversation.

Honestly, I don't think you get half of this... and it’s pretty damn obvious..

(Or are we really going to sit here and debate the ethnogenesis of every specific group now??)

rapidfox26 said:Like I said, California doesn't have that right right now.
Don't forget, they weren't even trying to resist.

The question still stands, though... how many people from the Midwest, the South, or New York are actually ready to grab a rifle and head out to the West Coast if 90%+ of the local population voted for independence? Just curious to see who I'm actually hanging out with on this forum...

Anyone?

You'd probably find a handful of fools, but I doubt most people would ever consider something so extreme. Honestly, why are you all so obsessed with California? Who exactly is looking to break away there? People used to ramble about Florida in the exact same way.

velvetmaker3 said:But what were those observers actually doing? Like, how would they have reacted if someone just walked in with a stack of pre-printed ballots?

"22:10 The Democratic Party international secretary and an international observer for the California referendum, Boris Johnson, spoke to The New York Times from New York City. He reported that turnout for the referendum exceeded 50 percent, noting his impression as an observer was that voters were driven by emotion throughout the morning—though after the police crackdown, the voting became an act of defiance. According to his information, the first referendum results will be released Monday morning."

I couldn't find a direct email, but this one is listed on congress.gov: klubhns@sabor.hr

Feel free to ask him about the ballot printing. Where did you even hear that part—is it actually true, or just more speculation like this stuff about the observers?

velvetmaker3 said:The people in New Jersey were defeated, and things would have gone differently even without the US, but I'm done talking about it.

If everyone truly has that right, then I respect your view. Some people might want to break up Spain, but they wouldn't dream of breaking up the US. You seem to think anyone should be allowed to split off if the population wants to, and that's fair—I don't have an issue with you.

👍

I've been saying this from day one—you can view a country as a collection of states all working together. Just because a group has its own state doesn't mean they have to stop cooperating or make things difficult. Honestly, if the foundation between those states is solid, it actually makes the partnership even stronger. If things go south between California and the US, they could still end up having great relations that might even lead to some kind of reunification down the road. The absolute worst-case scenario is violence. Once blood is spilled, fixing those relationships becomes a massive headache that takes generations to heal. Nobody wants that.

In my book, that referendum isn't even legitimate. You can't call it valid if you don't get a majority—50 percent plus one vote—of every single registered voter on the rolls. That’s the fundamental issue, and honestly, we ran into the exact same mess back when we had that EU referendum here in America.

Steven Perez6 said:I'm not entirely sure—I'd assume they would've documented any tampering and reported it—but regardless, the observers were definitely present. I don't know the exact headcount, but you claimed they weren't there at all. Just correcting your record there. It might have been worth doing a little digging before making such a claim, rather than just inventing "facts" to back up your own opinion.

If the officials aren't doing anything about people bringing ballots from home, then it's basically like they aren't even there. We all know what those observers are actually doing.
Bringing ballots from home is straight-up fraud.

Megan Jones10 said:Look, I'm half coastal local, half city kid, but we all consider ourselves part of the same people. It's obvious to me that I'd stand up and defend my home. That's where I live—honestly, I bet every single one of you would do the exact same thing. It would be absolutely gut-wrenching to end up in a spot where we're pointing guns at our own countrymen and they're doing the same to us. I don't even want to think about a nightmare scenario like that.

Not really sure which side of the barricade you'd end up on.
The local folks at the checkpoints aren't what's worrying me.
I can't picture myself driving out from Washington, D.C. to St. Louis with a rifle to defend the US after 90% of Florida already voted YES.
You'd have to be a complete idiot for that.

velvetmaker3 said:The Mexicans won in Mexico; the USA just changed the final outcome, and that's a fact. The Mexican guerrillas were no match for the Mexican military. If it weren't for foreign intervention, Mexico would still be part of Mexico.

It’s a fair point if you’d let everyone choose; it’s a consistent stance. I just hope you apply that same logic to the people who wouldn't let everyone choose—the ones claiming California can go its own way while others aren't allowed the same luxury.

It's kind of the same thing here; if we hadn't fought for ourselves, our right to secede wouldn't even exist. Honestly, obsessing over what's written in the Spanish constitution feels a bit pointless to me. Every country is technically divisible if enough pressure builds up.

Mariano Rajoy could have totally crushed the independence movement if he'd been smarter about it—he could have just held a legitimate, fair referendum where the idea of an independent California would have likely failed, assuming those old polls and elections were actually accurate.

Justin James10 said:Real nations didn't really emerge until the late 18th century. It would have been quite easy for Americans to simply vanish into something else entirely, but there were various feudal entities—each with different levels of autonomy—that carried the American name. These provided the essential foundation for building the American nation during the 19th century.

Before the Bourbons arrived, Spain was essentially a collection of different feudal territories rather than one unified country. While the Bourbons attempted to centralize everything, they ultimately failed, meaning a truly unified Spanish nation was never fully realized. Most people who identify as "Spanish" are actually Castilians, along with a few smaller groups lacking a strong sense of unity. Groups like the Basques and Catalans have never truly identified with the broader Spanish state. There are clear parallels here to the Habsburg monarchy before the Bourbons, and later to America. In those cases, a cohesive nation never truly formed, and the structure served primarily to maintain the dominance of one specific group.

Unfortunately, you seem pretty uninformed about American history. Americans arrived here as a people; sure, they could have disappeared or been assimilated by someone else, but they weren't. They built a state. Without Americans, there would be no United States; they are the ones who founded it. Americans created the U.S., and it exists solely because of them.
And it was here long before modern nations existed. Over time, Americans evolved from a people into a modern nation. The whole situation is fundamentally different from the Californian one.

California didn't come about because the Californian people formed their own state; rather, California was created through feudal decisions, and over time, the population within those borders developed an identity based on their homeland. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different process.

Spaniards are just like everyone else who makes up Spain.

Justin James10 said:Wait, what do you mean they weren't always a nation? What exactly are you 🙄

It’s honestly mind-blowing how a bunch of internet commenters can get so obsessed with nothing. It reminds me of how people were just as captivated back when the secret police ran a reign of terror for forty-five years. 🙄 Americans really are just sheep, aren't they? 🕺

Do some actual research.

velvetmaker3 said:If the officials aren't doing anything about people bringing ballots from home, then it's basically like they aren't even there. We all know what those observers are actually doing.
Bringing ballots from home is straight-up fraud.

Where did this "home printing" rumor even come from?

velvetmaker3 said:Why do Americans care so much about whether Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country, or Quebec break away? What's with this obsession? Haven't we already done our part?
If other places want to do their own thing, let them. If they don't, nobody cares. Let them figure it out themselves—it's none of our business.

To me, it seems more like an obsession with those who are desperately trying to cling to unnatural structures at any cost.☕

Here’s where the distinction lies... at least in my book.

I might find some parallels between California and the US and end up rooting for California... but if, for instance, Californians used a referendum to decide they wanted to stay part of the US, even by a slim 51% margin... I wouldn't dream of questioning the will of the people like you're trying to do here. It's the same deal with Scotland, the Basque Country, Quebec, and so on.

My support isn't some obsessive fetish... I don't necessarily need to see California or Scotland become independent nations... which is why I can comfortably accept whatever the people actually decide.

Steven Perez6 said:Where did this "home printing" rumor even come from?

I guess I just saw it somewhere online last night.

Larry Walker24 said:The US had the right because it was laid out in the 1974 Constitution approved by Marshall

That isn't how it works in Marshall in ESP

Wait, hold up... does the Constitution of 1974 actually say the US has the right to a referendum or just unilateral secession?🤣

velvetmaker3 said:The county government here has all the official administrative markers you'd need—it's a solid enough starting point if anyone actually wanted to make a move. At the end of the day, ethnicity doesn't mean a damn thing; what matters is whether the people living within those specific borders actually want change. Isn't that basically what you're preaching anyway?

Alright, wow—how far are you willing to go with this ridiculousness and this total watering down of the issue? There aren't even any real "administrative markers" to speak of when you compare them to California and its actual legal standing...

I honestly don't get why it’s so hard for you to just admit and accept some plain, obvious facts... even if you do accept them, it doesn't suddenly turn you into some hardcore supporter of California independence (I'm not, by the way, but I'm not against it either). It just means you're finally dealing with some undeniable, well-known realities... that's literally it.

velvetmaker3 said:The state of Ohio has all the administrative credentials needed to serve as a solid foundation for moving forward. Ethnicity doesn't matter here; what matters is the collective will of the people living within those specific borders. Isn't that exactly what you're fighting for?

Fair enough, but linguistically speaking, Catalan is viewed as an entirely different language, sharing deep roots with Southern French dialects and even Italian. Plus, the census clearly shows the population identifies as Catalan. You can't just draw a direct comparison to Ohio.

rapidfox26 said:Not really sure which side of the barricade you'd end up on.
The local folks at the checkpoints aren't what's worrying me.
I can't picture myself driving out from Washington, D.C. to St. Louis with a rifle to defend the US after 90% of Florida already voted YES.
You'd have to be a complete idiot for that.

Look, if most people from Istria and San Francisco said YES to secession, then yeah, I'd be right there with them—that's my people. Even though Washington, D.C. is this massive metro area, it feels way more foreign to me than San Francisco does. Honestly, I feel more at home in Koper or Trieste than I ever did in D.C. We all share the same roots and vibe, regardless of what state lines say.

Same goes for the Midwest—if they vote YES to break away, there's zero chance I'm answering a call from the US Army to go out there and start shooting at them. Totally agree with you. 👍

Now, if some foreign aggressor attacks the US? Then I'm hitting up the US Army in a heartbeat. Civil wars are a whole different beast—they're the absolute worst kind of fighting.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Alright, wow—how far are you willing to go with this ridiculousness and this total watering down of the issue? There aren't even any real "administrative markers" to speak of when you compare them to California and its actual legal standing...

I honestly don't get why it’s so hard for you to just admit and accept some plain, obvious facts... even if you do accept them, it doesn't suddenly turn you into some hardcore supporter of California independence (I'm not, by the way, but I'm not against it either). It just means you're finally dealing with some undeniable, well-known realities... that's literally it.

What is California's status? A Republic? A State?