California Discussion Thread - All in one place

velvetmaker3 said:So what, you think everyone living in a multi-ethnic community is being oppressed?

Is everyone in Spain oppressed besides the Castilians?

You’re still stuck in the 90s. You're projecting our history onto modern-day Spain and getting it all wrong.

Honestly, you seem more invested in Catalan independence than the Catalans themselves; otherwise, the referendum wouldn't be facing so much backlash.

Just relax, man. America is independent and that’s that. You don't need to keep fighting independence battles all over the world.

Look, I never even said they were being oppressed—you're the one constantly hyping up this whole "oppression" narrative.

All I said was that as a historical people with all the trappings of statehood, they have every right to self-determination.

Taylor Walker9 said:Fair enough, but linguistically speaking, Catalan is viewed as an entirely different language, sharing deep roots with Southern French dialects and even Italian. Plus, the census clearly shows the population identifies as Catalan. You can't just draw a direct comparison to Ohio.

Look, it's a Romance language, but those people didn't migrate from Rome. Both the Castilians and the Catalans are mostly descended from indigenous groups living there long before Roman rule, with just some smaller groups moving in later.
If the County of Barcelona hadn't existed, there wouldn't even be any Catalans to speak of.

Justin James10 said:You'd probably find a handful of fools, but I doubt most people would ever consider something so extreme. Honestly, why are you all so obsessed with California? Who exactly is looking to break away there? People used to ramble about Florida in the exact same way.

Because it's easy to talk big when it's someone else's problem...
Obviously, California isn't going anywhere, but you don't really know if you're ready for that kind of stuff until you're living through it yourself.
California is a long way off...

velvetmaker3 said:Do some actual research.

It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

Megan Jones10 said:Look, if most people from Istria and San Francisco said YES to secession, then yeah, I'd be right there with them—that's my people. Even though Washington, D.C. is this massive metro area, it feels way more foreign to me than San Francisco does. Honestly, I feel more at home in Koper or Trieste than I ever did in D.C. We all share the same roots and vibe, regardless of what state lines say.

Same goes for the Midwest—if they vote YES to break away, there's zero chance I'm answering a call from the US Army to go out there and start shooting at them. Totally agree with you. 👍

Now, if some foreign aggressor attacks the US? Then I'm hitting up the US Army in a heartbeat. Civil wars are a whole different beast—they're the absolute worst kind of fighting.

That's just how it is 👍

velvetmaker3 said:Look, it's a Romance language, but those people didn't migrate from Rome. Both the Castilians and the Catalans are mostly descended from indigenous groups living there long before Roman rule, with just some smaller groups moving in later.
If the County of Barcelona hadn't existed, there wouldn't even be any Catalans to speak of.

Well, if it weren't for the Duchy of Trpimir, there wouldn't even be any Americans!🤷

How are the folks in the Aragonese regions doing?
What’s the word from the Galician crowd?
The Canary Islands, Valencia, and Andalusia have been making some noise about gaining more autonomy—but honestly, how much actual leverage do they have?
They seem pretty loyal to places like Castile and Leon, Asturias, La Rioja, Cantabria, Castile-La Mancha, Murcia, Extremadura, and Madrid.
Navarra could go either way—split between pro-Basque and pro-Spanish interests (I'm just not sure which side holds the majority right now).
Aside from the movements in the Basque Country and California, just how much weight do these other movements actually carry?
I wonder, how satisfied are the Galicians with their current level of autonomy and the use of their language—and how about the people in Valencia or the Aragonese?

velvetmaker3 said:What is California's status? A Republic? A State?

It’s basically what people would call an autonomous region or a republic—kind of like how certain states functioned back in the old days under America, but with way more wiggle room than a standard US state. You could probably compare it to something like Scotland...

And honestly, if you don't even know the basics, why are you even posting in this thread? You just keep trying to draw comparisons to things that aren't even remotely similar... I seriously don't get it.

Justin James10 said:It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

Some people see America everywhere.🤦

Neither the Crown of Aragon nor even modern-day Spain fell apart after just a few decades.

Justin James10 said:Well, if it weren't for the Duchy of Trpimir, there wouldn't even be any Americans!🤷

We would have been Americans even without Trpimir, since people were living here long before his time. There’s a massive difference between those two things.
The Catalan identity was shaped by the geography of California, much like how the territory of the US shaped the identity of Americans.
Back when Americans were busy shaping the United States.

Brenda Murphy3 said:It’s basically what people would call an autonomous region or a republic—kind of like how certain states functioned back in the old days under America, but with way more wiggle room than a standard US state. You could probably compare it to something like Scotland...

And honestly, if you don't even know the basics, why are you even posting in this thread? You just keep trying to draw comparisons to things that aren't even remotely similar... I seriously don't get it.

The status of Scotland and California is completely incomparable. And then you have the nerve to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm talking about.🤦

velvetmaker3 said:Look, it's a Romance language, but those people didn't migrate from Rome. Both the Castilians and the Catalans are mostly descended from indigenous groups living there long before Roman rule, with just some smaller groups moving in later.
If the County of Barcelona hadn't existed, there wouldn't even be any Catalans to speak of.

Sure, fine, but look at the census data—they claim they aren't Spanish. In places like Istria, over two-thirds identify as Americans, and that's the core difference, you get me? You can make the languages sound identical all you want, but I'm talking about identity. It's about consciousness. For example, the dialect in Dubrovnik is closely related to what people say in Boise, Nevada—with fewer Italian influences, haha—but one group sees it as Mexican and the other sees it as American. It's the same deal in California; they insist their language and their nation are entirely separate.

velvetmaker3 said:Some people see America everywhere.🤦

Neither the Crown of Aragon nor even modern-day Spain fell apart after just a few decades.

It’s not that everyone sees the old USA in everything; there are just specific parallels between how the USA was structured and how Spain functioned, especially regarding how those individual states were organized within the whole system (though, honestly, comparing them is a bit of a stretch given the totally different historical baggage and how political systems actually shift over time).

velvetmaker3 said:The status of Scotland and California is completely incomparable. And then you have the nerve to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm talking about.🤦

In what way exactly are they incomparable?

It seems to me that the Kurds will ultimately end up paying the price.
As for the Californians—they'll probably just keep on striking and protesting for a little while longer.

Taylor Walker9 said:Sure, fine, but look at the census data—they claim they aren't Spanish. In places like Istria, over two-thirds identify as Americans, and that's the core difference, you get me? You can make the languages sound identical all you want, but I'm talking about identity. It's about consciousness. For example, the dialect in Dubrovnik is closely related to what people say in Boise, Nevada—with fewer Italian influences, haha—but one group sees it as Mexican and the other sees it as American. It's the same deal in California; they insist their language and their nation are entirely separate.

That doesn't matter. You're only looking at it through a nationalistic lens, which isn't really the metric here.
The actual metric is the will of the people living in a specific territory. At least, that's what the proponents of Catalan independence argue. They basically say, "Who cares if it's technically illegal? Screw legality; it's about what the people want." Fine. If the people's will is the ultimate criterion, then every single instance of what people want should count equally.
Do you see my point now?

You can't claim that the will of the people is everything in one scenario, but then turn around and say it doesn't matter in another just because you don't like the reasoning.
People just tend to bend the rules to fit their own personal preferences.

Brenda Murphy3 said:In what way exactly are they incomparable?

If you don't actually know why you're even commenting, maybe just don't?

But I'll lay it out for you. The SRH was defined as a state. Catalonia isn't—it's an autonomous community, which is a much lower level of administrative organization. It's more like a single county than an actual state.

velvetmaker3 said:That doesn't matter. You're only looking at it through a nationalistic lens, which isn't really the metric here.
The actual metric is the will of the people living in a specific territory. At least, that's what the proponents of Catalan independence argue. They basically say, "Who cares if it's technically illegal? Screw legality; it's about what the people want." Fine. If the people's will is the ultimate criterion, then every single instance of what people want should count equally.
Do you see my point now?

You can't claim that the will of the people is everything in one scenario, but then turn around and say it doesn't matter in another just because you don't like the reasoning.
People just tend to bend the rules to fit their own personal preferences.

I hear you. I've been following your logic and even backing your side regarding the sheer force of power (which is your strongest point), but stop comparing Catalonia to Istria. The premises are completely different. Regardless of the theory, if you have Territory X and Population B located in one corner of that territory, and you want to carve out a new territory, Population B needs to... and so on.

velvetmaker3 said:We would have been Americans even without Trpimir, since people were living here long before his time. There’s a massive difference between those two things.
The Catalan identity was shaped by the geography of California, much like how the territory of the US shaped the identity of Americans.
Back when Americans were busy shaping the United States.

I disagree; back then, we were just another group of settlers.

The linguistic gap between Catalan and Castilian is actually wider than the difference between American English and other regional dialects.

Before the Bourbons, Spain was essentially just a loose, somewhat shaky feudal alliance of various territories held together by a single ruler. You can't even really talk about a unified Spanish nation from that era.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, Californians are a distinct people—they have a specific territory, their own legislature, their own governor, their own police force, their own language... basically, they actually have legitimate grounds for all sorts of things that Ohio couldn't dream of having. Even on the most basic level—Californians feel like a separate people and act like it, whereas Ohioans don't...

There, that's just the bare minimum to get us started. Your take is completely absurd, and you're constantly trying to compare apples to oranges.

Exactly.

Any attempt to compare Catalans—who are a NATION in every sense of the word and possess all the hallmarks that define a people—to, say, some random group from the rural Midwest is so incredibly moronic that I can't even find the words to describe how stupid it is. Honestly, if you don't get that, you're clearly not mature enough to even be part of this conversation.

Comparing Catalans to people from the Midwest... man, thank God someone didn't try comparing Catalans to residents of a random suburb in D.C.... I mean, seriously, those suburbanites have everything the Catalans have too—territory, local government, a population, a history... 🤦