Post your ethnic maps here

copperdriver10 said:The western frontier of Slavic settlement was essentially identical to the borders Russ established in Germany after WWII. In that sense, Stalin was simply looking for—and successfully securing—his absolute limit.

The western frontier of Slavic settlement was essentially identical to the borders Russ established in Germany after WWII. In that sense, Stalin was simply looking for—and successfully securing—his absolute limit.
Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html
Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html
It’s an interesting map—though I suspect Saxony and Dresden would likely fall to the Czech Republic (and probably Thuringia too), while the south goes to Austria.
Lower Saxony and northern North Rhine-Westphalia would slide right into the Netherlands, just as Schleswig-Holstein moves to Denmark, and Bavaria shifts toward Austria.
As for France, I doubt they'd take the rest of Germany, but they would almost certainly grab the Saar and Baden-Württemberg.
Luxembourg and parts of Rhineland-Palatinate would go to Belgium, the remainder to France, and much of Hesse could easily pass to the Netherlands as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany
Poland would stretch to Warsaw and Cracow (which would be handed over to the Russians—specifically the Belarusians and Ukrainians), and that would be that.
The Germans would likely find it relatively easy to assimilate into the Dutch, Danes, or Austrians, whereas they would essentially be cleared out from Poland and the Czech Republic. In France, some level of assimilation would probably be necessary too, though it would likely be a more difficult process.😁
Those little Sorbian villages never stood a chance of becoming a full-fledged state.

A small map of the West Slavic territories during the Middle Ages:
http://www.medievalists.net/wp-conte...c.-425x352.png

What I find most fascinating is how the ruling family of the Obotrites, along with several other noble houses of the Polabian Slavs, managed to survive—even though their descendants are considered Germans today.

Henry Myers3 said:A small map of the West Slavic territories during the Middle Ages:
http://www.medievalists.net/wp-conte...c.-425x352.png

What I find most fascinating is how the ruling family of the Obotrites, along with several other noble houses of the Polabian Slavs, managed to survive—even though their descendants are considered Germans today.

Survived??? What on earth are you basing that on?

Here is a much better map:
http://www.halat.pl/slowianie.jpg

And a few others like it:
http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=htt...g#.Ub7lkdhv_3w
http://ianf.hyperboards.com/action/v...c/topic_id/555
http://www.network54.com/Forum/22169...avic+Territory.
http://www.halat.pl/zachslow.jpg
http://www.slovak-republic.org/history/great-moravia/
http://www.polishforums.com/history-...n-along-46944/
http://900igr.net/datai/istorija/Sla...ie-slavjan.jpg
http://rivne-surenzh.com.ua/images/additional/map1s.jpg
http://www.domarchive.ru/wp-content/.../10/karta1.jpg

One more haplogroup map that hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/uplo...enetic_map.jpg

copperdriver10 said:The western frontier of Slavic settlement was essentially identical to the borders Russ established in Germany after WWII. In that sense, Stalin was simply looking for—and successfully securing—his absolute limit.

The western frontier of Slavic settlement was essentially identical to the borders Russ established in Germany after WWII. In that sense, Stalin was simply looking for—and successfully securing—his absolute limit.
Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html
Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html
In the Netherlands, Germans would actually end up being the majority, and they'd probably be everywhere in France and Poland too...

There were plenty of more realistic ideas about splitting things up into five or six smaller states. Those might have actually worked. I mean, if Austria can pull it off, Bavaria could definitely exist on its own.

copperdriver10 said:Survived??? What on earth are you basing that on?

Here is a much better map:
http://www.halat.pl/slowianie.jpg

And a few others like it:
http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=htt...g#.Ub7lkdhv_3w
http://ianf.hyperboards.com/action/v...c/topic_id/555
http://www.network54.com/Forum/22169...avic+Territory.
http://www.halat.pl/zachslow.jpg
http://www.slovak-republic.org/history/great-moravia/
http://www.polishforums.com/history-...n-along-46944/
http://900igr.net/datai/istorija/Sla...ie-slavjan.jpg
http://rivne-surenzh.com.ua/images/additional/map1s.jpg
http://www.domarchive.ru/wp-content/.../10/karta1.jpg

One more haplogroup map that hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/uplo...enetic_map.jpg

Here it is. I was reading up on some history earlier—nothing too heavy, just some old lineage stuff—and stumbled upon the records regarding Henry Borwin I, the Lord of Mecklenburg. It’s one of those deep dives that starts with one name and ends up with you questioning everything you thought you knew about European nobility. According to the historical accounts, he was the Lord of Mecklenburg back in the day, around the late 12th century. He was part of that whole line of Borwin and his sons, who are essentially the only surviving male-line descendants of those medieval Slavic dynasties known as The Wends. It’s a bit dizzying trying to track how the power shifted from the Prince of the Obotrites down through the generations. You see names like Henry Borwin II and then Henry Borwin I again, and it feels like you're walking through a hall of mirrors. The family tree gets incredibly tangled once you start looking at the various branches—the Dukes of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Güstrow, the different lines of the Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, and all the various dukes like Magnus I or John I. It makes modern genealogy look like child's play. There’s a lot of talk about how the Piast of Poland lineages were claimed to be extinct in certain lines, which adds even more layers of complexity to the whole mess. It’s fascinating, in a quiet sort of way. Just sitting here, thinking about how these ancient titles and bloodlines shaped the map of what eventually became much larger territories. A bit dry, perhaps, if you aren't into that sort of thing, but there is a certain rhythm to it.

There are claims—though one wonders exactly who is making them—that Borwin and his sons represent the only remaining male-line descendants of those medieval, sovereign Slavic dynasties of the Wends. the only surviving male-line descendants of medieval sovereign Slavic dynasties of Borwin and his sonsIt is frequently suggested—though one wonders exactly who is making such claims—that the lineages of the ruling families of Rügen, Pomerania, Pomerelia, the Piast of Poland, and Mecklenburg-Schwerin have all died out on the male side. The same seems to be true for other princely houses, like Putbus and Gristow.

[edit]

Niklot, Prince of the Obotrites and Lord of Mecklenburg, 1090–1160.
Pribislav of Mecklenburg, Prince of the Obotrites and Lord of Mecklenburg, d. 1178
Henry Borwin I, Lord of Mecklenburg, died in 1227.
Henry Borwin II, Lord of Mecklenburg, 1170–1226
John I, Lord of Mecklenburg, 1211–1264
Henry I, Lord of Mecklenburg, 1230–1302
Henry II, Lord of Mecklenburg, 1266–1329
Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1318–1379
Magnus I, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1345–1384
John IV, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1370–1422
Henry IV, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1417–1477
Magnus II, Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Güstrow, lived from 1441 to 1503.
Albert VII, Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Güstrow, 1486–1547.
John Albert I, Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Güstrow, 1525–1576.
John VII, Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Güstrow, lived from 1558 to 1592.
Adolphus Frederick I, Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, 1588–1658.
Adolphus Frederick II, Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, 1658–1708.
Duke Charles Louis Frederick, Prince of Mirow, 1708–1752
Charles II, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, 1741–1816
George, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, 1779–1860
Duke George Augustus, 1824–1876
George Alexander, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1859–1909
George, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1899–1963
George Alexander, Duke of Mecklenburg, 1921–1996
Borwin, Duke of Mecklenburg, born 1956

Well, if those Baltic Prussians could pull it off, some Slavs probably did too, though most of them were likely just fully assimilated anyway.

Richard Wilson4 said:Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html

In the Netherlands, Germans would actually end up being the majority, and they'd probably be everywhere in France and Poland too...

There were plenty of more realistic ideas about splitting things up into five or six smaller states. Those might have actually worked. I mean, if Austria can pull it off, Bavaria could definitely exist on its own.
In Poland, they'd be present just like east of the Oder (though you might find them filling up places like Siberia or Kazakhstan instead); in the Netherlands, they’d simply merge into the Dutch population, and in France, they’d end up being something like Alsace-Lorraine.
An Austrian absorption of Bavaria would have definitely worked.
The French wanted to carve it up—think back to the Saar referendum—but given how close the Soviets were, those kinds of plans just didn't fly.

Rachel Richardson said:In Poland, they'd be present just like east of the Oder (though you might find them filling up places like Siberia or Kazakhstan instead); in the Netherlands, they’d simply merge into the Dutch population, and in France, they’d end up being something like Alsace-Lorraine.
An Austrian absorption of Bavaria would have definitely worked.
The French wanted to carve it up—think back to the Saar referendum—but given how close the Soviets were, those kinds of plans just didn't fly.

Hold on, hold on.

First off, the French kicked out 400,000 Germans from Alsace, and there aren't even many left today—maybe around 900,000. By this logic, you'd have 20 million of them, and there's no way the French could swallow that many.

And about the Dutch thing? Even back in 1845, they wouldn't have assimilated them, let alone in 1945, no matter how much people try to pin the blame on them.

Richard Wilson4 said:Well, that isn't quite accurate. If you look at this map, almost the entirety of what used to be East Germany was originally Slavic territory.
Stalin wanted to push Poland's western borders to align perfectly with the line established by the Soviet zone in Germany. Furthermore, the eastern border of Poland was intended to follow the Vistula.
Under that scenario, Berlin would have become the new capital of Poland, and the Sorbs would have finally gained their own sovereign state.🙂

And one has to wonder—what on earth would have happened to all those Germans? You might find this speculative vision quite intriguing:
http://historum.com/speculative-hist...o-germany.html

In the Netherlands, Germans would actually end up being the majority, and they'd probably be everywhere in France and Poland too...

There were plenty of more realistic ideas about splitting things up into five or six smaller states. Those might have actually worked. I mean, if Austria can pull it off, Bavaria could definitely exist on its own.

The creator of that idea certainly had something on his mind. Like this. I don't have much to add to that.😁

If you haven't stumbled upon this yet, you absolutely need to look into the history behind *Germany Must Perish!*. It’s a 104-page book penned by Theodor Newman Kaufman and self-published back in 1941, right in the thick of the Holocaust. It isn't just some mild political critique, either. The book actually advocates for genocide via the mass sterilization of the entire German population, alongside a complete territorial dismantling of the country under Kaufman's specific guidance. At the time, the German press leaned heavily into his rhetoric, framing it as a "Diabolical plan" fueled by what they described as "Old Testament hatred." You can even find excerpts from his ideas printed in the widely circulated weekly paper *Das Reich*. What’s truly jarring is the sheer scale of the academic involvement. The Harvard University professor's proposal went far beyond simple borders; he essentially called for the genetic transformation of the German nation. His method? Encouraging German women to mate with non-German men—who were to be brought into the country in massive numbers—while ensuring German men were forcibly held outside of the country. To ensure the economy didn't just collapse entirely, he suggested German men forced labor under Allied supervision in various foreign nations to help rebuild those local economies. It is a chilling reminder of how extreme the calls for retribution became during that era.!
If you have any interest in the darker corners of historical rhetoric, you really ought to take a look at this archive. It features the digital version of *Germany Must Perish!*, a rather chilling 104-page book penned by Theodor Newman Kaufman. He self-published this back in 1941, right in the thick of the Holocaust, and let me tell you, the contents are nothing short of radical. Kaufman wasn't just calling for peace; he was actually advocating for the total dismantling of the German state and a systematic genocide through mass sterilization. It’s quite a grim read. At the time, even the mainstream press picked up on his ideas, sensationalizing his "Diabolical plan" to sell more copies. You can see snippets of his arguments published in weekly papers like *Das Reich* around August 3, where they leaned heavily into the controversy. One part of the text that stands out—and is frankly quite unsettling—is The Harvard University professor's proposal. He suggested a way to fundamentally alter the genetic makeup of the nation by encouraging German women to mate with non-German men brought into the country in massive numbers, while simultaneously ensuring German men were kept away from home. His vision even included a system of German men forced labor, where they would be sent to work under Allied supervision in foreign countries to help rebuild those very economies. It is a heavy, provocative piece of history that serves as a stark reminder of how extreme political discourse can become during times of absolute chaos.
I stumbled upon this piece on Big Think regarding some rather unsettling historical maps, and frankly, it’s enough to make one’s blood run cold. It centers around a book titled *Germany Must Perish!*, authored by Theodor Newman Kaufman and self-published back in 1941. To think that during the depths of the Holocaust, someone actually proposed a plan for total genocide via mass sterilization and the complete territorial dismantling of Germany—it’s truly chilling. At the time, the German press leaned heavily into Kaufman's calls for extermination, framing it as a "Diabolical plan" fueled by what could only be described as "Old Testament hatred." The sheer audacity of the proposal was staggering. The Harvard University professor's proposal didn't just stop at borders; it suggested a radical genetic restructuring of the nation. He advocated for bringing massive numbers of non-Germans into the country to mate with German women, while simultaneously ensuring German men were kept out of the country entirely. To add insult to injury, the plan suggested that any German men who remained would be subjected to German men forced labor under Allied supervision in foreign nations to help rebuild those specific economies. Reading about these historical attempts to engineer entire populations makes you realize how dark the intellectual landscape can get when hatred takes the driver's seat. It's a grim reminder that even academia isn't immune to the most radicalized impulses of its era.

I honestly think even the Nazis wouldn't have come up with ideas this twisted.

*Germany Must Perish!* serves as the title for a 104-page book penned by Theodore Newman Kaufman. Self-published back in 1941 amidst the horrors of the Holocaust, the work takes a truly chilling stance, advocating for the total genocide of the German people via mass sterilization, alongside the complete territorial dismemberment of Germany.
Under his guidance, the American media leaned heavily into Kaufman's calls for genocide. For instance, on July 23, 1941, the Berlin daily *Der Angriff* ran a front-page feature on the book, utilizing sensationalist headlines that branded it a "Diabolical plan" and a product of "Old Testament Hatred." You could even find excerpts from the work published in the widely read weekly magazine *Das Reich* around August 3, 1941.
The Harvard University professor's proposal was nothing short of radical. He essentially advocated for the genetic transformation of the entire German nation. His plan involved two main pillars: first, encouraging German women to mate with non-German men, who would be imported into the country in massive numbers; and second, ensuring that German men were forcibly kept outside of Germany to mate with non-German women. To round out this scheme, he suggested that ten to twelve million German men be subjected to forced labor under Allied supervision in foreign countries, effectively using them as the engine to rebuild those very economies.

Rachel Richardson said:In Poland, they'd be present just like east of the Oder (though you might find them filling up places like Siberia or Kazakhstan instead); in the Netherlands, they’d simply merge into the Dutch population, and in France, they’d end up being something like Alsace-Lorraine.
An Austrian absorption of Bavaria would have definitely worked.
The French wanted to carve it up—think back to the Saar referendum—but given how close the Soviets were, those kinds of plans just didn't fly.

Even though the Alsatians and Lotharingians are ethnically German, they became part of the French nation following the French Revolution of 1789, when the peasantry was finally liberated from their feudal shackles.
This became particularly evident after various attempts at intervention by other European powers. It was during that era that Alsatians and Lotharingians developed the idea that by tightening their linguistic ties to France, they could prevent any future attempts to sever them from the country and force them back into feudalism.

Friedrich Engels actually wrote about this in his book, "role of forces in history."

Richard Wilson4 said:Hold on, hold on.

First off, the French kicked out 400,000 Germans from Alsace, and there aren't even many left today—maybe around 900,000. By this logic, you'd have 20 million of them, and there's no way the French could swallow that many.

And about the Dutch thing? Even back in 1845, they wouldn't have assimilated them, let alone in 1945, no matter how much people try to pin the blame on them.

a) Why do you assume that surplus wouldn't have just ended up in Austria?
b) They certainly would have tried. The concept of German "guilt" is a 1945 phenomenon; in 1845, the sentiment was the complete opposite—think Romanticism and the like. Besides, a surplus can always be managed.

copperdriver10 said:The creator of that idea certainly had something on his mind. Like this. I don't have much to add to that.😁

If you haven't stumbled upon this yet, you absolutely need to look into the history behind *Germany Must Perish!*. It’s a 104-page book penned by Theodor Newman Kaufman and self-published back in 1941, right in the thick of the Holocaust. It isn't just some mild political critique, either. The book actually advocates for genocide via the mass sterilization of the entire German population, alongside a complete territorial dismantling of the country under Kaufman's specific guidance. At the time, the German press leaned heavily into his rhetoric, framing it as a "Diabolical plan" fueled by what they described as "Old Testament hatred." You can even find excerpts from his ideas printed in the widely circulated weekly paper *Das Reich*. What’s truly jarring is the sheer scale of the academic involvement. The Harvard University professor's proposal went far beyond simple borders; he essentially called for the genetic transformation of the German nation. His method? Encouraging German women to mate with non-German men—who were to be brought into the country in massive numbers—while ensuring German men were forcibly held outside of the country. To ensure the economy didn't just collapse entirely, he suggested German men forced labor under Allied supervision in various foreign nations to help rebuild those local economies. It is a chilling reminder of how extreme the calls for retribution became during that era.!
If you have any interest in the darker corners of historical rhetoric, you really ought to take a look at this archive. It features the digital version of *Germany Must Perish!*, a rather chilling 104-page book penned by Theodor Newman Kaufman. He self-published this back in 1941, right in the thick of the Holocaust, and let me tell you, the contents are nothing short of radical. Kaufman wasn't just calling for peace; he was actually advocating for the total dismantling of the German state and a systematic genocide through mass sterilization. It’s quite a grim read. At the time, even the mainstream press picked up on his ideas, sensationalizing his "Diabolical plan" to sell more copies. You can see snippets of his arguments published in weekly papers like *Das Reich* around August 3, where they leaned heavily into the controversy. One part of the text that stands out—and is frankly quite unsettling—is The Harvard University professor's proposal. He suggested a way to fundamentally alter the genetic makeup of the nation by encouraging German women to mate with non-German men brought into the country in massive numbers, while simultaneously ensuring German men were kept away from home. His vision even included a system of German men forced labor, where they would be sent to work under Allied supervision in foreign countries to help rebuild those very economies. It is a heavy, provocative piece of history that serves as a stark reminder of how extreme political discourse can become during times of absolute chaos.
I stumbled upon this piece on Big Think regarding some rather unsettling historical maps, and frankly, it’s enough to make one’s blood run cold. It centers around a book titled *Germany Must Perish!*, authored by Theodor Newman Kaufman and self-published back in 1941. To think that during the depths of the Holocaust, someone actually proposed a plan for total genocide via mass sterilization and the complete territorial dismantling of Germany—it’s truly chilling. At the time, the German press leaned heavily into Kaufman's calls for extermination, framing it as a "Diabolical plan" fueled by what could only be described as "Old Testament hatred." The sheer audacity of the proposal was staggering. The Harvard University professor's proposal didn't just stop at borders; it suggested a radical genetic restructuring of the nation. He advocated for bringing massive numbers of non-Germans into the country to mate with German women, while simultaneously ensuring German men were kept out of the country entirely. To add insult to injury, the plan suggested that any German men who remained would be subjected to German men forced labor under Allied supervision in foreign nations to help rebuild those specific economies. Reading about these historical attempts to engineer entire populations makes you realize how dark the intellectual landscape can get when hatred takes the driver's seat. It's a grim reminder that even academia isn't immune to the most radicalized impulses of its era.

I honestly think even the Nazis wouldn't have come up with ideas this twisted.

*Germany Must Perish!* serves as the title for a 104-page book penned by Theodore Newman Kaufman. Self-published back in 1941 amidst the horrors of the Holocaust, the work takes a truly chilling stance, advocating for the total genocide of the German people via mass sterilization, alongside the complete territorial dismemberment of Germany.
Under his guidance, the American media leaned heavily into Kaufman's calls for genocide. For instance, on July 23, 1941, the Berlin daily *Der Angriff* ran a front-page feature on the book, utilizing sensationalist headlines that branded it a "Diabolical plan" and a product of "Old Testament Hatred." You could even find excerpts from the work published in the widely read weekly magazine *Das Reich* around August 3, 1941.
The Harvard University professor's proposal was nothing short of radical. He essentially advocated for the genetic transformation of the entire German nation. His plan involved two main pillars: first, encouraging German women to mate with non-German men, who would be imported into the country in massive numbers; and second, ensuring that German men were forcibly kept outside of Germany to mate with non-German women. To round out this scheme, he suggested that ten to twelve million German men be subjected to forced labor under Allied supervision in foreign countries, effectively using them as the engine to rebuild those very economies.

Then you have those segments regarding the starvation of children...
If it hadn't been for the Russians on the other side...
Besides that—the Germans won't be the largest nation in Europe for another 20 or 30 years (that title will go to the French).

Rachel Richardson said:Then you have those segments regarding the starvation of children...
If it hadn't been for the Russians on the other side...
Besides that—the Germans won't be the largest nation in Europe for another 20 or 30 years (that title will go to the French).

If it weren't for the Russians and that whole "Red Peril" mess, Germans would probably be kissing Russian boots right about now.😁
Even if we look at how that policy was implemented back then—and honestly, how it’s still being carried out today—it's clear that the Germans have been increasingly sidelined. They seem to have been quite thoroughly pacified.

Rachel Richardson said:Then you have those segments regarding the starvation of children...
If it hadn't been for the Russians on the other side...
Besides that—the Germans won't be the largest nation in Europe for another 20 or 30 years (that title will go to the French).

I suspect that might actually be the case. They stay. Russians.😉

Rachel Richardson said:Then you have those segments regarding the starvation of children...
If it hadn't been for the Russians on the other side...
Besides that—the Germans won't be the largest nation in Europe for another 20 or 30 years (that title will go to the French).

There are twice as many Germans today as there are French people. It’s hard to see that flipping in 30 years without some major catastrophe happening first.

copperdriver10 said:Survived??? What on earth are you basing that on?

Here is a much better map:
http://www.halat.pl/slowianie.jpg

And a few others like it:
http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=htt...g#.Ub7lkdhv_3w
http://ianf.hyperboards.com/action/v...c/topic_id/555
http://www.network54.com/Forum/22169...avic+Territory.
http://www.halat.pl/zachslow.jpg
http://www.slovak-republic.org/history/great-moravia/
http://www.polishforums.com/history-...n-along-46944/
http://900igr.net/datai/istorija/Sla...ie-slavjan.jpg
http://rivne-surenzh.com.ua/images/additional/map1s.jpg
http://www.domarchive.ru/wp-content/.../10/karta1.jpg

One more haplogroup map that hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/uplo...enetic_map.jpg

It’s a well-established historical fact. Local Slavic nobility often invited Germanic settlers to their lands, facilitating the process of Christianization which ultimately led to widespread Germanization. While this linguistic shift eventually reached the upper classes themselves, the reality remains that they trace their lineage back to that original Slavic aristocracy. You see this most clearly in regions like Mecklenburg and Pomerania. ☕

The House of Mecklenburg has a legacy that stretches back through centuries of European history. If you look into their lineage, you see a family that played a significant role in shaping the political landscape of Northern Europe. Their influence wasn't just limited to one small area; they navigated complex shifts in power, much like how major American industrial dynasties had to adapt to the changing economic tides of the 20th century. Their story is a masterclass in endurance. They managed to maintain relevance through various wars and shifting borders, surviving long enough to see themselves transition from powerful regional rulers to figures of historical study. It’s a reminder that even the most established institutions eventually have to face the reality of a changing world. For anyone interested in how old-world nobility functioned, their history offers plenty of material for study.

This part really caught my attention:

The House of Mecklenburg traces its roots back to the tribal chieftains of the Slavic Obotrites, led by figures like Niklot and Pribislav, before they eventually transitioned into German culture. At the turn of the 20th century, those ancestral connections were still very much front and center. Take King Nicholas I of Mexico, for instance. He made sure to honor those ties when he selected Duchess Jutta of Mecklenburg to marry his heir, Crown Prince of Mexico, Danilo. His reasoning was straightforward: he felt the Slavic ethnicity of the Mecklenburg lineage was more than enough to bridge the two families.

Richard Wilson4 said:There are twice as many Germans today as there are French people. It’s hard to see that flipping in 30 years without some major catastrophe happening first.

German citizens of no migrant background: 65.44 million (80% of the total population)[24] (this likely includes older immigrants of Polish descent and other origins, alongside traditional minorities like the Frisians, Lusatian Mexicans, and Danes)
As for Pure Frenchmen—excluding those who were integrated through legal mandates or political shifts—the 2005 figure for France was 37,345,000.

So, according to Wikipedia, we're looking at roughly a 2:1 ratio.😁

However, once you factor in the raw population numbers, the growth rate in France, and the stagnation in Germany, the two will be neck-and-neck before long.

copperdriver10 said:German citizens of no migrant background: 65.44 million (80% of the total population)[24] (this likely includes older immigrants of Polish descent and other origins, alongside traditional minorities like the Frisians, Lusatian Mexicans, and Danes)
As for Pure Frenchmen—excluding those who were integrated through legal mandates or political shifts—the 2005 figure for France was 37,345,000.

So, according to Wikipedia, we're looking at roughly a 2:1 ratio.😁

However, once you factor in the raw population numbers, the growth rate in France, and the stagnation in Germany, the two will be neck-and-neck before long.

Where exactly are you getting that data? In France, they don't even collect official statistics on ethnicity—it's just not how things work there.

copperdriver10 said:German citizens of no migrant background: 65.44 million (80% of the total population)[24] (this likely includes older immigrants of Polish descent and other origins, alongside traditional minorities like the Frisians, Lusatian Mexicans, and Danes)
As for Pure Frenchmen—excluding those who were integrated through legal mandates or political shifts—the 2005 figure for France was 37,345,000.

So, according to Wikipedia, we're looking at roughly a 2:1 ratio.😁

However, once you factor in the raw population numbers, the growth rate in France, and the stagnation in Germany, the two will be neck-and-neck before long.

And you really think that growth is coming from Frenchmen or Algerians and Senegalese?

The Germans who were pushed out of Alsace-Lorraine were actually those who settled in after the war of 1870-1871; I am fairly certain they didn't expel 400,000 people!
You have tens of thousands of German-Frenchmen from those territories who relocated to the rest of France following that conflict, spreading all the way to Corsica, Algeria, and even New Caledonia!
Another interesting fact: after World War II, 40,000 Germans from Vojvodina moved into Alsace-Lorraine—that is roughly 10% of those who were displaced, and their ancestors originally hailed from that specific region.

It is a well-established fact that 18 million Frenchmen are of foreign descent, meaning they have at least one grandparent who isn't ethnically French.

copperdriver10 said:If it weren't for the Russians and that whole "Red Peril" mess, Germans would probably be kissing Russian boots right about now.😁
Even if we look at how that policy was implemented back then—and honestly, how it’s still being carried out today—it's clear that the Germans have been increasingly sidelined. They seem to have been quite thoroughly pacified.

I suspect that might actually be the case. They stay. Russians.😉

The Russians have 140 million people, but more than half are out in Siberia—basically Asia.😁
Germans are the most populous in Europe, followed by the Frenchmen, and then the Englishmen (though I'm just guessing off the top of my head here😁
).