Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

urbantinker8 said:Ugh. kohortas, you’ve really gone and opened Pandora's box here, trying to shake things up or maybe just hoping to get a clear look at how messy everything actually is. 😁 I mean, good for you, I guess. 🙏
Of course there are great teachers and then there are... well, other teachers. It’s the same with doctors, accountants, lawyers—you know, different levels of competence across the board.

But hey, if it makes you feel any better, not every professor thinks their subject is the center of the universe. I certainly don't. Even though, realistically speaking, my field is probably way more important than half the stuff out there. 😁 But I’ve never once looked at my work as being the alpha and omega of existence.
Sadly, there are colleagues who act like their specific subject is the only thing that matters, but from what I’ve seen, that usually comes down to the older crowd, the old school types. We younger ones tend to be a bit more flexible about all that. 😁

And seminars... man...
It feels like ages since I sat through a decent one. For about four years now, they’ve been strictly focused on standardized testing and state curriculum requirements. It’s mostly politics and very little actual teaching or development. That’s all I’m going to say about that particular sore spot. ☕

nosorog, maybe I'm misreading things, but reading between the lines of your posts—well, most of them, anyway—I catch this deep sense of resentment and anger toward teachers. 🤷
I get the impression you think everyone is chronically lacking in pedagogical skill and that truly good professors just don't exist anymore.
And while we're talking about discipline—a teacher's job is to address undesirable behavior in students, not their parents. If a student is picking up those bad habits at home because they're mirroring their parents, that’s a whole different issue. Bad parenting should be dealt with by someone else entirely, but most of the time, that "someone else" either isn't there or just doesn't bother to step in.
Anyway, I guess we're just running in circles again.

Where exactly am I claiming that, especially the part about everyone lacking pedagogical skills?
😕

It’s so easy to make broad generalizations when you're just reading between the lines 🥳

Susan James said:But what does "cooperation" actually look like to you or the teachers? How exactly would a cooperative parent change the vibe in the classroom? In what way would that actually make your job easier?
Has anyone here actually dealt with a supportive parent who managed to turn things around in class? What did that process look like for you? 🙂

We recently dealt with a situation involving an eighth grader—he physically attacked another student, which sparked a full-blown fight. It wasn't an isolated incident; it was just the breaking point after a long string of disruptive behavior, including verbal abuse, arguing with teachers and peers, constant interruptions during lessons, and bullying younger kids.

He was issued a formal reprimand...

The very next day, the boy's father storms into the school. He starts threatening the homeroom teachers, barges into the Principal's office to intimidate her, and then goes as far as filing a lawsuit against the school.

I find myself wondering: where does this aggressive behavior stem from? Where does this level of sheer insolence come from, especially when it’s been going on for years? To me, the answer seems painfully obvious... one can clearly see where the child picked up such an attitude and these behavioral patterns.

That was frupy's point—you could organize five hundred different school projects focused on non-violence, tolerance, and cooperation, and you could talk to these students until you're blue in the face, but if the child returns to a home environment that actively encourages this kind of aggression, the efforts are essentially neutralized.

And what is the end result? Nothing. That student continues to bully his classmates, and the school is left powerless. A paper reprimand might as well be nothing more than last year's snow because we simply don't have the legal authority to take more concrete action.

On the flip side, you have those students who mess up, but they have parents at home who are self-aware enough to realize their child is in the wrong and are willing to work on teaching them appropriate behavior. In those cases—every project, every conversation, and all that hard work you put in actually feels meaningful.

Kate Cox2 said:We recently dealt with a situation involving an eighth grader—he physically attacked another student, which sparked a full-blown fight. It wasn't an isolated incident; it was just the breaking point after a long string of disruptive behavior, including verbal abuse, arguing with teachers and peers, constant interruptions during lessons, and bullying younger kids.

He was issued a formal reprimand...

The very next day, the boy's father storms into the school. He starts threatening the homeroom teachers, barges into the Principal's office to intimidate her, and then goes as far as filing a lawsuit against the school.

I find myself wondering: where does this aggressive behavior stem from? Where does this level of sheer insolence come from, especially when it’s been going on for years? To me, the answer seems painfully obvious... one can clearly see where the child picked up such an attitude and these behavioral patterns.

That was frupy's point—you could organize five hundred different school projects focused on non-violence, tolerance, and cooperation, and you could talk to these students until you're blue in the face, but if the child returns to a home environment that actively encourages this kind of aggression, the efforts are essentially neutralized.

And what is the end result? Nothing. That student continues to bully his classmates, and the school is left powerless. A paper reprimand might as well be nothing more than last year's snow because we simply don't have the legal authority to take more concrete action.

On the flip side, you have those students who mess up, but they have parents at home who are self-aware enough to realize their child is in the wrong and are willing to work on teaching them appropriate behavior. In those cases—every project, every conversation, and all that hard work you put in actually feels meaningful.

It leads to a very logical question: what specific powers are schools lacking—powers they *should* actually possess—that would allow these cases to be resolved in the blink of an eye? I mean, let's get specific: what should a school be able to do, but currently isn't allowed to do?

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Does this sound like you're describing a school staffed by creeps, predators, and lunatics?
From what authority are you speaking? What is your actual role in the American education system? You're clearly just some former student who spent their time causing trouble in class decades ago. 😁

If you’re dodging the question because you want to claim your faculty lounge isn't filled with people who should be banned from being near toddlers—let alone children—then you’re either teaching at a place straight out of Narnia or your standards are incredibly low.

Evading the point and building straw men feels less like an argument and more like a clumsy attempt to cover for problematic colleagues. 😳

Kate Cox2 said:We recently dealt with a situation involving an eighth grader—he physically attacked another student, which sparked a full-blown fight. It wasn't an isolated incident; it was just the breaking point after a long string of disruptive behavior, including verbal abuse, arguing with teachers and peers, constant interruptions during lessons, and bullying younger kids.

He was issued a formal reprimand...

The very next day, the boy's father storms into the school. He starts threatening the homeroom teachers, barges into the Principal's office to intimidate her, and then goes as far as filing a lawsuit against the school.

I find myself wondering: where does this aggressive behavior stem from? Where does this level of sheer insolence come from, especially when it’s been going on for years? To me, the answer seems painfully obvious... one can clearly see where the child picked up such an attitude and these behavioral patterns.

That was frupy's point—you could organize five hundred different school projects focused on non-violence, tolerance, and cooperation, and you could talk to these students until you're blue in the face, but if the child returns to a home environment that actively encourages this kind of aggression, the efforts are essentially neutralized.

And what is the end result? Nothing. That student continues to bully his classmates, and the school is left powerless. A paper reprimand might as well be nothing more than last year's snow because we simply don't have the legal authority to take more concrete action.

On the flip side, you have those students who mess up, but they have parents at home who are self-aware enough to realize their child is in the wrong and are willing to work on teaching them appropriate behavior. In those cases—every project, every conversation, and all that hard work you put in actually feels meaningful.

But what does "real action" look like here?
What should a school actually be able to do in a situation like this? If we’re looking at a perfect world where anything is possible, what would you want the staff to do with this kid or his parents?

Nicholas King said:It leads to a very logical question: what specific powers are schools lacking—powers they *should* actually possess—that would allow these cases to be resolved in the blink of an eye? I mean, let's get specific: what should a school be able to do, but currently isn't allowed to do?

To start with, maybe some kind of suspension...

If a kid screws up, the parents should be automatically called to come pick them up and take them home immediately. For many people, leaving work is going to be incredibly inconvenient, and then they’re stuck wondering what on earth their child is supposed to be doing for the next seven days while they're barred from school. If nothing else, perhaps that inconvenience might make them actually stop and think about why their child needs to be learning in the first place.

I mean, if you have to get pulled away from your job five, six, or seven times just to go fetch your kid from school, maybe it will finally sink in.🤷(Since, according to American law, children can't be left unsupervised at home until a certain age, a parent either has to stay home with the suspended child or find someone else to watch them.)

I don't know, that’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I’m sure a group of more brilliant minds could come up with much smarter ideas than mine.
But simply writing a warning or a reprimand on a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to these kids (or their parents). That is the only thing schools are allowed to do right now. It's the only sanction available.

And frankly, it's complete nonsense.

Kate Cox2 said:To start with, maybe some kind of suspension...

If a kid screws up, the parents should be automatically called to come pick them up and take them home immediately. For many people, leaving work is going to be incredibly inconvenient, and then they’re stuck wondering what on earth their child is supposed to be doing for the next seven days while they're barred from school. If nothing else, perhaps that inconvenience might make them actually stop and think about why their child needs to be learning in the first place.

I mean, if you have to get pulled away from your job five, six, or seven times just to go fetch your kid from school, maybe it will finally sink in.🤷(Since, according to American law, children can't be left unsupervised at home until a certain age, a parent either has to stay home with the suspended child or find someone else to watch them.)

I don't know, that’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I’m sure a group of more brilliant minds could come up with much smarter ideas than mine.
But simply writing a warning or a reprimand on a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to these kids (or their parents). That is the only thing schools are allowed to do right now. It's the only sanction available.

And frankly, it's complete nonsense.

Sending a kid home like that basically puts them on the streets.
Not back with their parents, but out on the street.

I agree regarding the formal reprimands.🤷

Someone mentioned that in another country, when a student gets suspended, they're assigned an assistant or a mentor who works with them through the situation. (Maybe I'm imagining things, but that person would act as a role model for better behavior, so it isn't purely a punishment). That sounds okay to me, but banning a kid from school entirely after they mess up seems totally counterproductive.

Linda Price5 said:If you’re dodging the question because you want to claim your faculty lounge isn't filled with people who should be banned from being near toddlers—let alone children—then you’re either teaching at a place straight out of Narnia or your standards are incredibly low.

Evading the point and building straw men feels less like an argument and more like a clumsy attempt to cover for problematic colleagues. 😳

My faculty is fairly old. We have plenty of aging and ailing professors who are doing their best. Nobody has specifically complained about anyone, or at least I haven't heard of it.

Kate Cox2 said:To start with, maybe some kind of suspension...

If a kid screws up, the parents should be automatically called to come pick them up and take them home immediately. For many people, leaving work is going to be incredibly inconvenient, and then they’re stuck wondering what on earth their child is supposed to be doing for the next seven days while they're barred from school. If nothing else, perhaps that inconvenience might make them actually stop and think about why their child needs to be learning in the first place.

I mean, if you have to get pulled away from your job five, six, or seven times just to go fetch your kid from school, maybe it will finally sink in.🤷(Since, according to American law, children can't be left unsupervised at home until a certain age, a parent either has to stay home with the suspended child or find someone else to watch them.)

I don't know, that’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I’m sure a group of more brilliant minds could come up with much smarter ideas than mine.
But simply writing a warning or a reprimand on a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to these kids (or their parents). That is the only thing schools are allowed to do right now. It's the only sanction available.

And frankly, it's complete nonsense.

So, are you honestly suggesting that a father—one who actually instigated a fight involving his child—is going to suddenly become enlightened and reasonable after being hauled out of work half a dozen times?

I think you have to be kidding me...

i don't know

Exactly—you "don't know"—yet somehow that doesn't stop you from claiming the administration is helpless because they lack the "authority to take concrete action." Honestly, that is just incredibly unprofessional.

Did you call the police when the father stormed in and started making threats? Did you file a countersuit? Did you even notify NASA? The school has every single one of those powers at its disposal.

Nicholas King said:So, are you honestly suggesting that a father—one who actually instigated a fight involving his child—is going to suddenly become enlightened and reasonable after being hauled out of work half a dozen times?

I think you have to be kidding me...

i don't know

Exactly—you "don't know"—yet somehow that doesn't stop you from claiming the administration is helpless because they lack the "authority to take concrete action." Honestly, that is just incredibly unprofessional.

Did you call the police when the father stormed in and started making threats? Did you file a countersuit? Did you even notify NASA? The school has every single one of those powers at its disposal.

Of course, I don't expect anyone to suddenly achieve spiritual enlightenment overnight, but perhaps—just perhaps—people might take a moment to actually reflect on their own behavior.

The police were called—though, let's be honest, they didn't actually do a damn thing—and the countersuit was never even filed. To what end? I can't speak to exactly how NASA handles things in this specific instance, but I certainly know how they operate in others; you file a report, and of course, NASA just sits on its hands. Nothing changes. Things remain exactly as they were.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:My faculty is fairly old. We have plenty of aging and ailing professors who are doing their best. Nobody has specifically complained about anyone, or at least I haven't heard of it.

So, what kind of standard are we actually talking about here? I mean—if an instructor is old and unwell, does that suddenly make it irrelevant whether they’re actually incompetent or simply failing to show up at all? By that logic, our schools basically turn into some sort of charity ward, where students are essentially held hostage by a teacher's medical history.

I suppose you expect a high schooler or a college student to just shrug and say, "Well, you know, my math professor really tried his hardest, even if he was old and sick," and then somehow forgive the fact that the kid still can't add two fractions together?

Can you think of any other profession—especially in the private sector—where people are judged solely on how much they struggle within their own limited capacity rather than the actual quality of the work they produce?

Susan James said:Sending a kid home like that basically puts them on the streets.
Not back with their parents, but out on the street.

I agree regarding the formal reprimands.🤷

Someone mentioned that in another country, when a student gets suspended, they're assigned an assistant or a mentor who works with them through the situation. (Maybe I'm imagining things, but that person would act as a role model for better behavior, so it isn't purely a punishment). That sounds okay to me, but banning a kid from school entirely after they mess up seems totally counterproductive.

Look, if we actually passed a law stating that a child under the age of 14 or 16 shouldn't be left home alone, then we would logically need the police or some other federal agency to step in and ensure that child is actually with their parents, rather than just wandering the streets unsupervised.

And while we're on the subject, it wouldn't hurt to mandate parenting seminars for the adults involved, too.
I find myself agreeing with the sentiment regarding the lack of accountability here.🤷

Honestly, everything feels broken...😢 not a single institution in this country seems to be functioning the way they are supposed to.

Kate Cox2 said:Of course, I don't expect anyone to suddenly achieve spiritual enlightenment overnight, but perhaps—just perhaps—people might take a moment to actually reflect on their own behavior.

The police were called—though, let's be honest, they didn't actually do a damn thing—and the countersuit was never even filed. To what end? I can't speak to exactly how NASA handles things in this specific instance, but I certainly know how they operate in others; you file a report, and of course, NASA just sits on its hands. Nothing changes. Things remain exactly as they were.

Could we perhaps get some specifics on this supposed "nothing"? I mean—did they just fail to show up entirely? Or did they arrive but neglected to file an official report? Maybe they didn't even issue a misdemeanor citation—even though, let’s be clear, making threats is a criminal offense in this country.

Did someone actually follow up with the precinct to check the status of the report you filed? Did anyone ask why a misdemeanor charge wasn't at least initiated?

the counterclaim wasn't filed—against what?

If his lawsuit is truly as baseless as you claim, then why is it even weighing on you?

Honestly, you should probably just hire an attorney, file your own suit regarding the threats, and handle it that way—why wouldn't you think that would be more effective than dealing with school suspensions or being summoned five, six, or seven times just to pick up your child?

Or, I suppose, maybe certain people just don't want the headache of confronting a "wild" parent. You know how it goes—that subtle attitude of, "Do you have any idea how much I earn?"... ☕

Kate Cox2 said:Look, if we actually passed a law stating that a child under the age of 14 or 16 shouldn't be left home alone, then we would logically need the police or some other federal agency to step in and ensure that child is actually with their parents, rather than just wandering the streets unsupervised.

And while we're on the subject, it wouldn't hurt to mandate parenting seminars for the adults involved, too.
I find myself agreeing with the sentiment regarding the lack of accountability here.🤷

Honestly, everything feels broken...😢 not a single institution in this country seems to be functioning the way they are supposed to.

And isn't a school considered an institution as well?

Kate Cox2 said:To start with, maybe some kind of suspension...

If a kid screws up, the parents should be automatically called to come pick them up and take them home immediately. For many people, leaving work is going to be incredibly inconvenient, and then they’re stuck wondering what on earth their child is supposed to be doing for the next seven days while they're barred from school. If nothing else, perhaps that inconvenience might make them actually stop and think about why their child needs to be learning in the first place.

I mean, if you have to get pulled away from your job five, six, or seven times just to go fetch your kid from school, maybe it will finally sink in.🤷(Since, according to American law, children can't be left unsupervised at home until a certain age, a parent either has to stay home with the suspended child or find someone else to watch them.)

I don't know, that’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I’m sure a group of more brilliant minds could come up with much smarter ideas than mine.
But simply writing a warning or a reprimand on a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to these kids (or their parents). That is the only thing schools are allowed to do right now. It's the only sanction available.

And frankly, it's complete nonsense.

Schools must be able to defend themselves against the violent behavior of certain students. There needs to be protection for the other students, the school property, and even the teachers. As a parent, I refuse to send my child to an institution where they might face any form of abuse while the authorities simply stand by and fail to shut such behavior down immediately.

Nicholas King said:So, what kind of standard are we actually talking about here? I mean—if an instructor is old and unwell, does that suddenly make it irrelevant whether they’re actually incompetent or simply failing to show up at all? By that logic, our schools basically turn into some sort of charity ward, where students are essentially held hostage by a teacher's medical history.

I suppose you expect a high schooler or a college student to just shrug and say, "Well, you know, my math professor really tried his hardest, even if he was old and sick," and then somehow forgive the fact that the kid still can't add two fractions together?

Can you think of any other profession—especially in the private sector—where people are judged solely on how much they struggle within their own limited capacity rather than the actual quality of the work they produce?

Ugh, you are so exhausting. Just because people are aging or dealing with health issues doesn't mean they're doing a bad job; I specifically wrote that NO ONE had complained about anyone, as far as I know.

Besides, you'll be old one day too, and maybe even sick, so I don't get why you lack even a shred of basic empathy for a situation that is completely unavoidable.

Nicholas King said:Could we perhaps get some specifics on this supposed "nothing"? I mean—did they just fail to show up entirely? Or did they arrive but neglected to file an official report? Maybe they didn't even issue a misdemeanor citation—even though, let’s be clear, making threats is a criminal offense in this country.

Did someone actually follow up with the precinct to check the status of the report you filed? Did anyone ask why a misdemeanor charge wasn't at least initiated?

the counterclaim wasn't filed—against what?

If his lawsuit is truly as baseless as you claim, then why is it even weighing on you?

Honestly, you should probably just hire an attorney, file your own suit regarding the threats, and handle it that way—why wouldn't you think that would be more effective than dealing with school suspensions or being summoned five, six, or seven times just to pick up your child?

Or, I suppose, maybe certain people just don't want the headache of confronting a "wild" parent. You know how it goes—that subtle attitude of, "Do you have any idea how much I earn?"... ☕

And isn't a school considered an institution as well?

They showed up, asked everyone to just disperse peacefully... and there wasn't even a single official report filed. No paperwork, nothing.

Nicholas King said:Could we perhaps get some specifics on this supposed "nothing"? I mean—did they just fail to show up entirely? Or did they arrive but neglected to file an official report? Maybe they didn't even issue a misdemeanor citation—even though, let’s be clear, making threats is a criminal offense in this country.

Did someone actually follow up with the precinct to check the status of the report you filed? Did anyone ask why a misdemeanor charge wasn't at least initiated?

the counterclaim wasn't filed—against what?

If his lawsuit is truly as baseless as you claim, then why is it even weighing on you?

Honestly, you should probably just hire an attorney, file your own suit regarding the threats, and handle it that way—why wouldn't you think that would be more effective than dealing with school suspensions or being summoned five, six, or seven times just to pick up your child?

Or, I suppose, maybe certain people just don't want the headache of confronting a "wild" parent. You know how it goes—that subtle attitude of, "Do you have any idea how much I earn?"... ☕

And isn't a school considered an institution as well?

There isn't any legal ground to stand on here, honestly. He can file whatever lawsuit he wants, but let’s be real—he isn't going to win a single thing.
Honestly, there isn't even any point in wasting my breath commenting on this second matter...

Nicholas King said:Could we perhaps get some specifics on this supposed "nothing"? I mean—did they just fail to show up entirely? Or did they arrive but neglected to file an official report? Maybe they didn't even issue a misdemeanor citation—even though, let’s be clear, making threats is a criminal offense in this country.

Did someone actually follow up with the precinct to check the status of the report you filed? Did anyone ask why a misdemeanor charge wasn't at least initiated?

the counterclaim wasn't filed—against what?

If his lawsuit is truly as baseless as you claim, then why is it even weighing on you?

Honestly, you should probably just hire an attorney, file your own suit regarding the threats, and handle it that way—why wouldn't you think that would be more effective than dealing with school suspensions or being summoned five, six, or seven times just to pick up your child?

Or, I suppose, maybe certain people just don't want the headache of confronting a "wild" parent. You know how it goes—that subtle attitude of, "Do you have any idea how much I earn?"... ☕

And isn't a school considered an institution as well?

Exactly what I was thinking. It’s just incredibly frustrating because, frankly, it feels like absolutely none of our institutions are actually doing their jobs lately. Not one single agency seems to be taking any real action at all.
The school, acting as a single entity nested within several larger administrative bodies, possesses the formal authority to issue written warnings and reprimands. And they certainly go ahead and exercise that power. However, in my estimation, such measures carry absolutely no weight whatsoever; they are effectively meaningless gestures that fail to produce any actual change.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Schools must be able to defend themselves against the violent behavior of certain students. There needs to be protection for the other students, the school property, and even the teachers. As a parent, I refuse to send my child to an institution where they might face any form of abuse while the authorities simply stand by and fail to shut such behavior down immediately.

Well, look, the school does everything in its power... they sit down with the kid, they call the parents, they organize endless projects and seminars meant to prevent violence, they issue a first warning, then a second, then a third, they give them official reprimands...

al when those kids just don't care about warnings—not for the rules, not for their peers, and certainly not for their parents—then what? You give them a warning, and it's like you said nothing at all. They show up the next day right after they've beaten up another student or smashed a desk by jumping on it (and then the parents suddenly claim it was all just an accident 🙄).

Kate Cox2 said:Well, look, the school does everything in its power... they sit down with the kid, they call the parents, they organize endless projects and seminars meant to prevent violence, they issue a first warning, then a second, then a third, they give them official reprimands...

al when those kids just don't care about warnings—not for the rules, not for their peers, and certainly not for their parents—then what? You give them a warning, and it's like you said nothing at all. They show up the next day right after they've beaten up another student or smashed a desk by jumping on it (and then the parents suddenly claim it was all just an accident 🙄).

I understand completely. 🙄 I have personally witnessed broken limbs, black eyes, busted arches, hornet stings, and even a student breaking their tailbone because someone pulled their chair out from under them. Honestly, seeing that stuff was enough to make me call 911. I've spent more time breaking up fights than I care to admit, and frankly, just thinking about it makes me nauseous. I'm done with this topic. 😁

Kate Cox2 said:They showed up, asked everyone to just disperse peacefully... and there wasn't even a single official report filed. No paperwork, nothing.

There isn't any legal ground to stand on here, honestly. He can file whatever lawsuit he wants, but let’s be real—he isn't going to win a single thing.
Honestly, there isn't even any point in wasting my breath commenting on this second matter...

Exactly what I was thinking. It’s just incredibly frustrating because, frankly, it feels like absolutely none of our institutions are actually doing their jobs lately. Not one single agency seems to be taking any real action at all.
The school, acting as a single entity nested within several larger administrative bodies, possesses the formal authority to issue written warnings and reprimands. And they certainly go ahead and exercise that power. However, in my estimation, such measures carry absolutely no weight whatsoever; they are effectively meaningless gestures that fail to produce any actual change.

If I were to show up at your front door making threats—and then the police arrived and just "did nothing"—would you honestly sit there and tell me that filing a lawsuit makes no sense?

BTW, it would be pretty useful if we could get @drota over here to clarify whether an intervention like that can actually fly without any official reports being filed.