Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

Nicholas King said:If I were to show up at your front door making threats—and then the police arrived and just "did nothing"—would you honestly sit there and tell me that filing a lawsuit makes no sense?

BTW, it would be pretty useful if we could get @drota over here to clarify whether an intervention like that can actually fly without any official reports being filed.

Look, I am not the principal of this school, and frankly, I couldn't care less how the administration decides to handle their internal affairs...
and that isn't even the point... you are getting hung up on things that are completely irrelevant...

The core issue was my observation regarding the comments from frupy and nosorog—that all your hard work is essentially wasted when you're dealing with parents who simply refuse to cooperate...

But since you are clearly such a brilliant individual with a rebuttal for absolutely everything—I am curious: how would *you* solve these systemic issues in the American education system when you have parents who are too busy being embarrassed by their children's behavior to actually help?

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Ugh, you are so exhausting. Just because people are aging or dealing with health issues doesn't mean they're doing a bad job; I specifically wrote that NO ONE had complained about anyone, as far as I know.

Besides, you'll be old one day too, and maybe even sick, so I don't get why you lack even a shred of basic empathy for a situation that is completely unavoidable.

Twisting my words to imply some sort of lack of compassion for the elderly is either pure rudeness or a terrifying inability to grasp basic reading comprehension. Pick one.

Having empathy for aging or illness has absolutely nothing to do with insisting on high-quality work. Someone's age or health status shouldn't be used as a variable in this discussion.

BTW, I really hope you aren't teaching English—just imagine showing the sentence "There are many old and sick professors who try as hard as they can." to some colleague in the linguistics department and asking if the phrase "well, it might not be great, but they can't do any better" is somehow implicitly baked into it.

BTW, of course I'm being difficult—anyone who refuses to join the "oh, life is so hard, there's nothing we can do" mutual ass-kissing circle is going to be labeled as difficult.

Kate Cox2 said:Look, I am not the principal of this school, and frankly, I couldn't care less how the administration decides to handle their internal affairs...
and that isn't even the point... you are getting hung up on things that are completely irrelevant...

The core issue was my observation regarding the comments from frupy and nosorog—that all your hard work is essentially wasted when you're dealing with parents who simply refuse to cooperate...

But since you are clearly such a brilliant individual with a rebuttal for absolutely everything—I am curious: how would *you* solve these systemic issues in the American education system when you have parents who are too busy being embarrassed by their children's behavior to actually help?

Why on earth would you misrepresent your own words? That is quite simply untrue.

You have stated, on more than one occasion, that schools lack certain famous authorities required to achieve miraculous results. My pointing out what is being blamed for "wrongdoing" is merely an attempt to illustrate just how much authority the school actually possesses, yet chooses not to exercise for various reasons or otherwise.

since you're clearly such a brilliant individual who has a rebuttal for absolutely everything—I'm curious, how exactly would you solve these educational issues regarding parents whose kids are acting out like total delinquents?

There really are only two paths here, which I think can be illustrated quite clearly by looking at a child getting into fights and a father subsequently suing the school.

A school can choose to be persistent—almost terrier-like, if you will—and utilize every single bit of existing authority they have (which, by the way, isn't exactly small; in this specific case, that could mean suing the father for threats, insisting on filing a police report for misconduct, or even pushing for Child Protective Services to get involved); furthermore, I suppose one could argue that "calling parents five, six, or seven times to come pick up their kid" also falls under current school powers—or, perhaps, they just decide to say, "look, we aren't going to deal with this headache for this amount of funding."

Both options are legitimate (and to be most serious: it is a perfectly valid stance to say, "I'm doing a half-hearted job because there is no mechanism to kick me in the teeth and put me on the street")—but, I find it rather unfair to whine about these supposed missing authorities (especially since, if asked directly, you don't seem to have any clue what those authorities actually are) and mostly just shed bitter tears—complaining about everyone indiscriminately without actually doing anything at all.

Nicholas King said:Twisting my words to imply some sort of lack of compassion for the elderly is either pure rudeness or a terrifying inability to grasp basic reading comprehension. Pick one.

Having empathy for aging or illness has absolutely nothing to do with insisting on high-quality work. Someone's age or health status shouldn't be used as a variable in this discussion.

BTW, I really hope you aren't teaching English—just imagine showing the sentence "There are many old and sick professors who try as hard as they can." to some colleague in the linguistics department and asking if the phrase "well, it might not be great, but they can't do any better" is somehow implicitly baked into it.

BTW, of course I'm being difficult—anyone who refuses to join the "oh, life is so hard, there's nothing we can do" mutual ass-kissing circle is going to be labeled as difficult.

Nagasak is focusing on the "trying their best" part, not the "it isn't good" part.

If someone is trying their absolute hardest, then what they produce is quality work. If they need medical leave, we find a substitute.

It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

Paul Wilson72 said:It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

1.) "The guy" isn't complaining about elderly or sick staff members. He's upset because it feels like they're implying those folks don't need to meet professional standards just because they're older or dealing with health issues. For what it's worth, I've had some professors who were practically ancient, and honestly, hats off to them. Some of those veterans were way sharper, more agile, and infinitely more capable than the young, "gifted" kids coming up through the ranks today.

Anyway, my mother-in-law, who used to be a guidance counselor, actually nudged her daughter to take those certification exams back when this company was going through its rough patch. She thought she might land a job teaching vocational subjects. Her whole pitch was that even if you have to deal with some rowdy teenagers and annoying parents occasionally, you get amazing hours, a steady paycheck, and it's a million times better than that soul-crushing sales job she was working before.

Jason Ortiz5 said:1.) "The guy" isn't complaining about elderly or sick staff members. He's upset because it feels like they're implying those folks don't need to meet professional standards just because they're older or dealing with health issues. For what it's worth, I've had some professors who were practically ancient, and honestly, hats off to them. Some of those veterans were way sharper, more agile, and infinitely more capable than the young, "gifted" kids coming up through the ranks today.

Anyway, my mother-in-law, who used to be a guidance counselor, actually nudged her daughter to take those certification exams back when this company was going through its rough patch. She thought she might land a job teaching vocational subjects. Her whole pitch was that even if you have to deal with some rowdy teenagers and annoying parents occasionally, you get amazing hours, a steady paycheck, and it's a million times better than that soul-crushing sales job she was working before.

I mean, that really just speaks to your mother-in-law's perspective, doesn't it? It doesn't necessarily say much about teachers as a whole group.
Those exams are part of what they call the pedagogical subject group.😉
Actually, from what I've seen, I know way more people who jumped ship from school to work for various corporations than the other way around, I suppose.

By the way, did your mother-in-law end up taking that teaching gig?🍿

Paul Wilson72 said:It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

Wait, where exactly are you getting the idea that anyone here is saying teachers don't do their jobs?

What I keep noticing is that teachers are burnt out because they lack any real authority and their hands are tied (and honestly, by whom?). On top of that, there's this perception that the administration isn't doing its job, the police officers on campus aren't stepping up, and the school psychologists are basically just sitting around sipping coffee or playing games with kids instead of actually intervening with students and parents to resolve issues before sending them back to class. 🤷

Let’s take a step back here. What specific authority are you looking for?
What exactly do you want the power to do right now, so you wouldn't have to rely on other agencies and could actually maintain a decent atmosphere in your classroom?

Kate Cox2 said:We recently dealt with a situation involving an eighth grader—he physically attacked another student, which sparked a full-blown fight. It wasn't an isolated incident; it was just the breaking point after a long string of disruptive behavior, including verbal abuse, arguing with teachers and peers, constant interruptions during lessons, and bullying younger kids.

He was issued a formal reprimand...

The very next day, the boy's father storms into the school. He starts threatening the homeroom teachers, barges into the Principal's office to intimidate her, and then goes as far as filing a lawsuit against the school.

I find myself wondering: where does this aggressive behavior stem from? Where does this level of sheer insolence come from, especially when it’s been going on for years? To me, the answer seems painfully obvious... one can clearly see where the child picked up such an attitude and these behavioral patterns.

That was frupy's point—you could organize five hundred different school projects focused on non-violence, tolerance, and cooperation, and you could talk to these students until you're blue in the face, but if the child returns to a home environment that actively encourages this kind of aggression, the efforts are essentially neutralized.

And what is the end result? Nothing. That student continues to bully his classmates, and the school is left powerless. A paper reprimand might as well be nothing more than last year's snow because we simply don't have the legal authority to take more concrete action.

On the flip side, you have those students who mess up, but they have parents at home who are self-aware enough to realize their child is in the wrong and are willing to work on teaching them appropriate behavior. In those cases—every project, every conversation, and all that hard work you put in actually feels meaningful.

Yeah. Parents are responsible for their kids' behavior. That much is true. But it feels to me like you people in education are increasingly taking the path of least resistance. Why? Because you're afraid of the fallout, afraid of the district inspectors. Why be afraid if you have the facts on your side? Why be afraid if the law is on your side? What happened? Some Martin Luther King Jr. type or a drunk shows up and starts yelling at you, and you're just standing there helpless? There is such a thing as a formal disciplinary record. As a teacher, you need to document it and justify it with solid arguments. A three-person committee should decide on these matters, and sure, a parent has the right to appeal. They have the right to call the board. So why resist the process? That's what the work should be about. That’s the core issue. Part of the problem is that nobody taught you this in college—nobody taught you how to actually be a homeroom teacher, what to do during advisory periods, let alone how to approach a specific problem or how to handle a parent. Some of you start the conversation with "I called you here to tell you your child is a problem..." Try instead: "I invited you here so we could work together to find a solution for certain issues regarding your child's learning and behavior." Or, "This happened, and I'm asking for your help so we can fix it together." Isn't that approach better? And you should do it the moment you detect the issue, not when everything has already gone to hell. Try using that approach, and even the aggressive ones will run out of ammunition for their outbursts.

urbantinker8 said:I mean, that really just speaks to your mother-in-law's perspective, doesn't it? It doesn't necessarily say much about teachers as a whole group.
Those exams are part of what they call the pedagogical subject group.😉
Actually, from what I've seen, I know way more people who jumped ship from school to work for various corporations than the other way around, I suppose.

By the way, did your mother-in-law end up taking that teaching gig?🍿

My mother-in-law is actually pretty highly regarded by both fellow educators and the parents of her students. To be honest, I don't always see eye-to-eye with her when it comes to how kids should be raised versus how the school system works, so I'm definitely not taking her side here. And no, her daughter didn't go into education. She found a steady job working for the government. 😬

Jessica Howard5 said:Yeah. Parents are responsible for their kids' behavior. That much is true. But it feels to me like you people in education are increasingly taking the path of least resistance. Why? Because you're afraid of the fallout, afraid of the district inspectors. Why be afraid if you have the facts on your side? Why be afraid if the law is on your side? What happened? Some Martin Luther King Jr. type or a drunk shows up and starts yelling at you, and you're just standing there helpless? There is such a thing as a formal disciplinary record. As a teacher, you need to document it and justify it with solid arguments. A three-person committee should decide on these matters, and sure, a parent has the right to appeal. They have the right to call the board. So why resist the process? That's what the work should be about. That’s the core issue. Part of the problem is that nobody taught you this in college—nobody taught you how to actually be a homeroom teacher, what to do during advisory periods, let alone how to approach a specific problem or how to handle a parent. Some of you start the conversation with "I called you here to tell you your child is a problem..." Try instead: "I invited you here so we could work together to find a solution for certain issues regarding your child's learning and behavior." Or, "This happened, and I'm asking for your help so we can fix it together." Isn't that approach better? And you should do it the moment you detect the issue, not when everything has already gone to hell. Try using that approach, and even the aggressive ones will run out of ammunition for their outbursts.

I find it somewhat fascinating, I suppose, how the conclusion always seems to be that none of us learned a single useful thing in college, whether we're talking about our actual subject matter or the pedagogical side of teaching.🙄
We act like our specific subject is the only thing that matters, yet we struggle with lesson planning, don't work particularly hard, spend more time relaxing than prepping, demand impossible things from students, have no clue how to run a classroom, can't talk to kids effectively, and apparently don't know how to handle parents either. It’s almost as if we’re entirely unqualified for the jobs we hold.
But then again, if we're all so incompetent, where are all those "seasoned experts" hiding??😕
If you're all such master educators, why aren't you actually working in the school system trying to fix the educational framework instead of just typing away on internet forums?🤷

urbantinker8 said:I find it somewhat fascinating, I suppose, how the conclusion always seems to be that none of us learned a single useful thing in college, whether we're talking about our actual subject matter or the pedagogical side of teaching.🙄
We act like our specific subject is the only thing that matters, yet we struggle with lesson planning, don't work particularly hard, spend more time relaxing than prepping, demand impossible things from students, have no clue how to run a classroom, can't talk to kids effectively, and apparently don't know how to handle parents either. It’s almost as if we’re entirely unqualified for the jobs we hold.
But then again, if we're all so incompetent, where are all those "seasoned experts" hiding??😕
If you're all such master educators, why aren't you actually working in the school system trying to fix the educational framework instead of just typing away on internet forums?🤷

Fine, so what's your role here as an educator? What are you actually doing about it? What are your colleagues doing? Am I generalizing? Maybe. But can you honestly tell me I'm wrong? Believe me, only a minority of you are like this, but it's true. A huge chunk of teachers dream of becoming principals. You ditch teaching to worry about toilet paper supplies and office equipment. If you happen to have a decent counselor on staff, even better. Most of them have no idea what they're getting into, other than a bigger paycheck and supposedly "less work"—that principal title. Any school lucky enough to have a real principal—someone who knows the laws, understands their authority, knows how to apply it, and actually wants to make the system work—is winning. Someone who has a solid team of counselors, psychologists, and specialists. That team should lead the school, while you teachers focus on teaching and flagging issues when they arise. That is how a school works; it's more than just delivering a lecture. Look, I'm not a principal or a specialist, but I know a little bit about how the system is supposed to function. It baffles me that you all seem to know it too, yet you avoid it at all costs. Why? So nobody yells at you? So you don't have to deal with a district inspection? So that besides teaching and grading tests, you don't have to perform the actual duties required of you? Isn't that the reality? And I don't need to be an expert to see it; I see it every day just by sending my kid to school.

Do you ever feel like parents and everyone else in the community find it just as fascinating as I do? It’s wild how teachers tend to view themselves as the ultimate victims of "the system." They push back against any kind of oversight—like, heaven forbid we offer a little constructive feedback!—and then they immediately band together to protect their own interests. They place this massive emphasis on the "dignity" of their profession, which often feels like an excuse to look down on parents, students, and other specialists who are actually supposed to be working right alongside them. It’s like they’ve cast themselves in this permanent role of the misunderstood martyr... 🤷

urbantinker8 said:I find it somewhat fascinating, I suppose, how the conclusion always seems to be that none of us learned a single useful thing in college, whether we're talking about our actual subject matter or the pedagogical side of teaching.🙄
We act like our specific subject is the only thing that matters, yet we struggle with lesson planning, don't work particularly hard, spend more time relaxing than prepping, demand impossible things from students, have no clue how to run a classroom, can't talk to kids effectively, and apparently don't know how to handle parents either. It’s almost as if we’re entirely unqualified for the jobs we hold.
But then again, if we're all so incompetent, where are all those "seasoned experts" hiding??😕
If you're all such master educators, why aren't you actually working in the school system trying to fix the educational framework instead of just typing away on internet forums?🤷

This is a textbook example of academic passive-aggression.

Who actually went around claiming that no one in the teaching profession isn't doing their job properly? Of course, no such claims were ever made—but then again, who cares? We’re going to react with that classic, predictable blend of union solidarity and cult-like psychology.

It all boils down to one simple reality: when I pointed out the fact that every single educator knows perfectly well they are sitting in the faculty lounge at the same table as people who, quite frankly, should be banned from teaching immediately, my response was—well, nothing. Just two silences and a tired, "No institution works; we are an institution, but we have no authority and our hands are tied, and blah, blah, blah..."

Meanwhile, everyone in these schools knows everything: they know who is just showing up to collect a paycheck and pension while counting down the minutes until they can go home to run the side business they actually live off of; they know who shows up in sweatpants; they know who drinks because they've given up on even bothering with the dress code; they know who was discharged from a psychiatric ward but refuses to take medical leave because their doctor suggested "occupational therapy"; they know who sits there idly while students run wild; and they know who fights retirement tooth and nail even though the kids are driving them absolutely insane...

But this silence is so deeply ingrained that people won't even break it on a (more-than-) anonymous forum.

And why is this silence so destructive? Because this kind of solidarity with the slackers throws all those countless hardworking professionals under the bus. By staying silent, educators are grouping themselves in the same bucket as the failures—including the Smith (there's always a Smith) whom the students actually adore and whose classroom atmosphere is wonderful despite being strict and demanding. She’s the only one who doesn't have issues with Mark from 8th grade, whom everyone else rolls their eyes at and kicks out of class daily, or that Jordan (there's always a Jordan) who exhausts himself trying to make sure even the very last student understands basic geometry, or that Perry (there's always a Perry) who organizes two million different extracurricular activities just to ensure the kids aren't hanging out by the wall in front of the local Walmart with some local troublemaker named Fisher.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Ugh, you are so exhausting. Just because people are aging or dealing with health issues doesn't mean they're doing a bad job; I specifically wrote that NO ONE had complained about anyone, as far as I know.

Besides, you'll be old one day too, and maybe even sick, so I don't get why you lack even a shred of basic empathy for a situation that is completely unavoidable.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Nagasak is focusing on the "trying their best" part, not the "it isn't good" part.

If someone is trying their absolute hardest, then what they produce is quality work. If they need medical leave, we find a substitute.

Empathy is fine, sure. But how is it even possible that one set of standards applies to employees in the private sector, while a completely different rulebook exists for teachers? Tell me, how many people do you think would survive in a corporate environment like Google or Goldman Sachs under the principle of "just try your best, and that’s enough"?

It’s beyond me why teachers expect parents or students to just swallow some subpar situation simply because "that's how things are" and nothing can be done about it. Unacceptable.

And why on earth should certain kids and their parents be forced to suffer just because some professor is incompetent and useless? Does that fact somehow make things easier when they try to move on to higher education?

Paul Wilson72 said:It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

If you didn't manage to grasp a single point from my previous post, there really wasn't a need to shout it to the heavens.

nimblelynx7 said:Empathy is fine, sure. But how is it even possible that one set of standards applies to employees in the private sector, while a completely different rulebook exists for teachers? Tell me, how many people do you think would survive in a corporate environment like Google or Goldman Sachs under the principle of "just try your best, and that’s enough"?

It’s beyond me why teachers expect parents or students to just swallow some subpar situation simply because "that's how things are" and nothing can be done about it. Unacceptable.

And why on earth should certain kids and their parents be forced to suffer just because some professor is incompetent and useless? Does that fact somehow make things easier when they try to move on to higher education?

Nobody should have to suffer because of someone else. But tell me, what would your "solution" actually look like?

To put it bluntly, if we follow your logic, all school problems would vanish simply by firing every incompetent teacher. Suddenly, Mike and Steve would stop fighting and smashing desks, everyone would miraculously start studying, and those losers from the PTSD-related organization wouldn't be hanging around the halls anymore. It’ll be such a utopia that the Department of Social Services won't even have a job left. 🤷

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Nobody should have to suffer because of someone else. But tell me, what would your "solution" actually look like?

To put it bluntly, if we follow your logic, all school problems would vanish simply by firing every incompetent teacher. Suddenly, Mike and Steve would stop fighting and smashing desks, everyone would miraculously start studying, and those losers from the PTSD-related organization wouldn't be hanging around the halls anymore. It’ll be such a utopia that the Department of Social Services won't even have a job left. 🤷

The Passive Aggression of the Education Department, Part II.

BTW—which incompetent teachers are we actually talking about here? I thought you claimed they didn't even exist—since, apparently, nobody has filed a single complaint?

Nicholas King said:The Passive Aggression of the Education Department, Part II.

BTW—which incompetent teachers are we actually talking about here? I thought you claimed they didn't even exist—since, apparently, nobody has filed a single complaint?

And what's the actual goal here? Are we just going to drag this out indefinitely by insisting that teachers are both the cause and the cure for every single failure in the American school system?