Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

Emily Gonzalez51 said:It is utterly baffling to me how anyone could equate a botched dental job or some subpar service with the fundamental importance of upbringing and education. 😕 You are comparing apples to oranges here.

What I did was draw a distinction between messing around with "technology" and actually critiquing the disastrous results when that technology is poorly applied.

Upbringing and education aren't some sacred, untouchable mysteries where the outcomes can't be clearly identified or subjected to rigorous critical analysis. The idea held by a certain subset of enlightened types—that they are somehow the chosen ones passing down Thought and Truth from one generation to the next to a bunch of unworthy nobodies—is frankly nothing more than a joke.

Nicholas King said:What I did was draw a distinction between messing around with "technology" and actually critiquing the disastrous results when that technology is poorly applied.

Upbringing and education aren't some sacred, untouchable mysteries where the outcomes can't be clearly identified or subjected to rigorous critical analysis. The idea held by a certain subset of enlightened types—that they are somehow the chosen ones passing down Thought and Truth from one generation to the next to a bunch of unworthy nobodies—is frankly nothing more than a joke.

Fine, if you go to a steakhouse and the meal is garbage, you blame the chef. But if a kid grows up without a shred of work ethic or basic manners, I suppose you'll just point the finger at the teacher?

Can you try being reasonable instead of getting so defensive? We are discussing whether education and upbringing are subjects that can be studied and evaluated. Are you honestly suggesting the teacher carries the entire burden for a child's development?

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Fine, if you go to a steakhouse and the meal is garbage, you blame the chef. But if a kid grows up without a shred of work ethic or basic manners, I suppose you'll just point the finger at the teacher?

Can you try being reasonable instead of getting so defensive? We are discussing whether education and upbringing are subjects that can be studied and evaluated. Are you honestly suggesting the teacher carries the entire burden for a child's development?

Let’s be real here: talking to you feels like I’m constantly one step away from losing my cool entirely. I honestly can't decide which is worse—the possibility that you simply don't grasp a single word I'm saying, or the fact that you seem to think playing the part of a completely unhinged, sarcastic, passive-aggressive clown is somehow witty or charming.

The whole narrative you're pushing—this idea of "ill-mannered, uneducated kids with no work ethic" being dumped into the hands of "poor, martyred educators"—is quite possibly the most exhausting trope in the entire American teaching profession today.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Fine, if you go to a steakhouse and the meal is garbage, you blame the chef. But if a kid grows up without a shred of work ethic or basic manners, I suppose you'll just point the finger at the teacher?

Can you try being reasonable instead of getting so defensive? We are discussing whether education and upbringing are subjects that can be studied and evaluated. Are you honestly suggesting the teacher carries the entire burden for a child's development?

Was I being unclear in my last post? Is there anything confusing about where I stand?

Let me be crystal clear: nobody in the school system is responsible for raising my kids (even though the Elementary School Act explicitly says they are). They don't have to teach them basic manners, how to say please or thank you, or how to stop interrupting. I'm talking about *my* child here. But let's step back and look at the big picture of the American education system and face reality. My sincere apologies to anyone caught up in this debate—professionals or otherwise. Seriously, can someone actually give me a realistic take on what's happening in our schools? I'm not looking for a black-and-white debate. I want your actual opinions and concrete solutions to these specific issues. Or fine, let's flip it: someone write a post about everything that's working great in schools, and we can just sit around praising those things. I'm only interested in critical perspectives and actual ways to fix things.

Kate Cox2 said:Of course, I don't expect anyone to suddenly achieve spiritual enlightenment overnight, but perhaps—just perhaps—people might take a moment to actually reflect on their own behavior.

The police were called—though, let's be honest, they didn't actually do a damn thing—and the countersuit was never even filed. To what end? I can't speak to exactly how NASA handles things in this specific instance, but I certainly know how they operate in others; you file a report, and of course, NASA just sits on its hands. Nothing changes. Things remain exactly as they were.

This is actually a pretty useful and interesting read regarding how the police handle these types of situations.

Nicholas King said:Let’s be real here: talking to you feels like I’m constantly one step away from losing my cool entirely. I honestly can't decide which is worse—the possibility that you simply don't grasp a single word I'm saying, or the fact that you seem to think playing the part of a completely unhinged, sarcastic, passive-aggressive clown is somehow witty or charming.

The whole narrative you're pushing—this idea of "ill-mannered, uneducated kids with no work ethic" being dumped into the hands of "poor, martyred educators"—is quite possibly the most exhausting trope in the entire American teaching profession today.

I’m sorry if you took that personally, but teachers aren't meant to be surrogate parents, nor is it their job to instill basic discipline. That responsibility falls squarely on the parents, and they need to handle it early on, because once it's too late, the damage is already done.

Nicholas King said:This is actually a pretty useful and interesting read regarding how the police handle these types of situations.

Thanks for the link, Nicholas. It’s all laid out there plain and simple. Honestly, I don't see the issue here.

Jessica Howard5 said:Thanks for the link, Nicholas. It’s all laid out there plain and simple. Honestly, I don't see the issue here.

It’s just pure myth-making, plus there's more to it.☕ 🙂

Emily Gonzalez51 said:I’m sorry if you took that personally, but teachers aren't meant to be surrogate parents, nor is it their job to instill basic discipline. That responsibility falls squarely on the parents, and they need to handle it early on, because once it's too late, the damage is already done.

Here's the issue... people who think kids are strictly a problem, and that's actually the problem for everyone else. Every single person working in education who thinks that way.

Sarah James4 said:Here's the issue... people who think kids are strictly a problem, and that's actually the problem for everyone else. Every single person working in education who thinks that way.

Come on, people, get a grip. Who actually claims kids are the sole problem here? Let's look at the big picture. A few questions for you:

How do you fix things when the teacher is the problem? (not saying anyone is, obviously)

How do you fix things when the kid is the problem? (not saying any kid is, obviously)

How do you fix things when the parent is the problem? (not saying any parent is, obviously)

So, please, enlighten me with some answers to these questions if you don't mind.

Jessica Howard5 said:Come on, people, get a grip. Who actually claims kids are the sole problem here? Let's look at the big picture. A few questions for you:

How do you fix things when the teacher is the problem? (not saying anyone is, obviously)

How do you fix things when the kid is the problem? (not saying any kid is, obviously)

How do you fix things when the parent is the problem? (not saying any parent is, obviously)

So, please, enlighten me with some answers to these questions if you don't mind.

1. Look, there's this whole thing with evaluating if someone is even fit for the job... and that falls squarely on the principal's shoulders. Period. I sent one person for an evaluation once and, guess what? Total radio silence. The paperwork just came back in the mail, completely untouched... the exact same stuff we sent out.
So, who screwed the pooch there?! Is it the school, the teachers, or the specialists?
Also, regarding how the goalposts keep moving—like everyone being expected to work until they're 80... personally, I know I won't be able to do what I do now once I hit 65. How am I supposed to change that, and whose fault is it? What's the move in that situation?
Honestly, what would anyone do in that spot, regardless of their job?

2. Trying to deal with a kid who "can't behave" is basically impossible if the parents aren't on board. You can talk to the kid until you're blue in the face, but if they don't have support at home, you're stuck. There's zero help, and all you're doing is playing firefighter... basically just trying to stop the bleeding so the other kids don't suffer...
You don't even get the chance to bring in a specialist or try therapy if the parent refuses to take them.

3. At that point, the only thing left is to talk to the parent over and over again, and then maybe report them to the Department of Social Services, and that's pretty much it—unless there's violence, in which case you call the police. If things get serious, the Department of Social Services has to step in because they're the ones with the authority to actually go into homes and monitor families.

Sean Fox said:1. Look, there's this whole thing with evaluating if someone is even fit for the job... and that falls squarely on the principal's shoulders. Period. I sent one person for an evaluation once and, guess what? Total radio silence. The paperwork just came back in the mail, completely untouched... the exact same stuff we sent out.
So, who screwed the pooch there?! Is it the school, the teachers, or the specialists?
Also, regarding how the goalposts keep moving—like everyone being expected to work until they're 80... personally, I know I won't be able to do what I do now once I hit 65. How am I supposed to change that, and whose fault is it? What's the move in that situation?
Honestly, what would anyone do in that spot, regardless of their job?

2. Trying to deal with a kid who "can't behave" is basically impossible if the parents aren't on board. You can talk to the kid until you're blue in the face, but if they don't have support at home, you're stuck. There's zero help, and all you're doing is playing firefighter... basically just trying to stop the bleeding so the other kids don't suffer...
You don't even get the chance to bring in a specialist or try therapy if the parent refuses to take them.

3. At that point, the only thing left is to talk to the parent over and over again, and then maybe report them to the Department of Social Services, and that's pretty much it—unless there's violence, in which case you call the police. If things get serious, the Department of Social Services has to step in because they're the ones with the authority to actually go into homes and monitor families.

Thanks for the replies😁. Does anyone else have experience dealing with this stuff? Please write it down (briefly explain the case or situation—how it was resolved or why it wasn't). Please, this will actually help all of us instead of just talking in circles and blaming each other. 🤷 Thanks in advance😍

I’ve read through everything—maybe I misinterpreted some of it, but here are the facts as I understand them
1. There isn't actually a provision in the elementary school system for suspending a student for just a week or so; I'm honestly not sure if that was just some proposed legislative idea or what.🤷
The most severe disciplinary action available is transferring them to a different school. Period.
And when I say "different school," I mean a facility specifically designed for kids with behavioral disorders—those students who require constant support from specialized developmental specialists.
2. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that the police would show up at a school, tell a janitor to clear out, and then leave without filing an official report.
That is nothing short of pure incompetence on the part of both the school administration and the responding officers.
I have said this a hundred times already: there should be no action taken without a paper trail.
Last year, the police were frequent visitors at my school because we were dealing with some serious issues.
Parents are summoned immediately, everyone sits down with the pedagogical staff to draft a formal report, and then a request for a family welfare investigation is filed with the Department of Social Services (which usually involves the police as well).
City Hall is notified via emergency channels, and in coordination with the Department of Social Services and the school, they seek to have the student evaluated by an institution like Kukuljevic.
During this process, the student continues to attend classes, though they are under intense supervision.
It is quite common—standard, really—for these students to struggle with psychological or even physiological challenges, which necessitates implementing new teaching methods; parents are required to be heavily involved, and if things spiral out of control, the student is transferred to a more suitable school.
We have dealt with cases involving parents carrying firearms and physical altercations between students, so you have to handle these situations with extreme caution and intelligence.
The police are legally obligated to respond, and frankly, in my area, they are fast and actually do their jobs properly.
For instance, we actually abolished having students on hall duty because they need to be in class, not wasting their day standing at the entrance.
Besides, it’s precisely because of those types of parents that even the security staff at the gate doesn't feel entirely safe.
We are responsible for every single child in our care, and we are painfully aware of that weight.

Jason Ortiz5 said:I just wanted to chime in here as a parent. Since I’m the one who is legally and morally on the hook for my kid in every possible way, it honestly scares me a bit. It feels like there are people involved in our kids' education who are actually terrified of being held accountable. They push back against any kind of oversight and act like their work is perfect by default, no questions asked.

These folks basically expect parents to hand over their most precious thing—their children—with zero hesitation. But then, if those same parents try to ask a question or offer an opinion, suddenly they're the problem. It's like you aren't even allowed to doubt a teacher's word; you have to treat everything they say as this absolute, unbiased truth. And God forbid you actually have a concern or question about how someone is teaching. If you do, you're immediately labeled as "uncooperative," or worse—called incompetent, unprofessional, arrogant, or even aggressive.

Yeah, sure. That’s a known fact. Just like it’s a "known fact" that we parents are all failures who don't know how to raise kids, teach them to be rude, or care about them. Then we get kids coming home from school acting like they own the place (because someone representing the Children's Rights Advocate visited their office in Indianapolis), but when I ask my kids if anyone mentioned responsibilities, they haven't a clue. All they remember is the number of some blue telephone. So I went to the store, bought a blue phone, and told them, "I'm the boss here, and things are done my way, so call it a blue phone as much as you want." Look, let's actually have a normal conversation about school using topics like School-Child or School-Parent. I'm only interested in solutions. Please, state a specific problem, then let's see how it was handled. Parents have a right to know how the system functions.
Second thing: at my job, I am constantly being evaluated. My results are measurable. Why do you employees in educational institutions think you should be exempt from that? Why are you so afraid when someone calls for an inspection to assess your work? Why can't your performance be measured? You already undergo external evaluations, so your work is technically assessed, but beyond raw data, there's never any actual praise or reprimands or sanctions.
So, what would happen if every one of you had a formal performance review at least every four years? What if, based on those reviews, you could actually earn a promotion to a mentor position, or lose your job because you failed to meet basic standards? Stop attacking us parents and our kids. I’d really like to hear some thoughts on this.

Performance reviews definitely exist.
Of course they do. But somehow, they always wind up landing on my desk in administration, where they spend all their time obsessively scrutinizing employment contracts and paperwork instead of actually doing anything useful.
That’s usually where their focus lies. You almost never see them actually step foot inside a classroom. Technically, those evaluations should be handled by specialists from the Department of Education, but let's be honest—that practically never happens.
They only bother showing up when someone is being promoted to a mentor or an advisory role.
My principal is incredibly intense when it comes to teacher performance and oversight. He’ll personally grab the gradebooks and attendance rosters just to micromanage everything we do.
We’ve had people fired—one for physically lunging at a student and even once for leaving kids completely unsupervised.
God forbid he catches a single kid wandering aimlessly through the hallway during class time.

Charles Murphy6 said:Performance reviews definitely exist.
Of course they do. But somehow, they always wind up landing on my desk in administration, where they spend all their time obsessively scrutinizing employment contracts and paperwork instead of actually doing anything useful.
That’s usually where their focus lies. You almost never see them actually step foot inside a classroom. Technically, those evaluations should be handled by specialists from the Department of Education, but let's be honest—that practically never happens.
They only bother showing up when someone is being promoted to a mentor or an advisory role.
My principal is incredibly intense when it comes to teacher performance and oversight. He’ll personally grab the gradebooks and attendance rosters just to micromanage everything we do.
We’ve had people fired—one for physically lunging at a student and even once for leaving kids completely unsupervised.
God forbid he catches a single kid wandering aimlessly through the hallway during class time.

I wouldn't even say he's "hardcore," I'd just say he's doing his actual job. I mean, the law clearly states his responsibilities, which include reviewing pedagogical paperwork and dropping in on classes every now and then... but then you have those principals who just sit there playing it safe (and I'm saying this strictly based on my experience with a few of them) 🙂: that's the part that absolutely drives me crazy in this job... 🙂😂🤣
I'm probably gonna get fired for talking back to my boss, so I'll let you guys know how that goes and if the system actually works or whatever. 🤣

Jessica Howard5 said:Yeah, sure. That’s a known fact. Just like it’s a "known fact" that we parents are all failures who don't know how to raise kids, teach them to be rude, or care about them. Then we get kids coming home from school acting like they own the place (because someone representing the Children's Rights Advocate visited their office in Indianapolis), but when I ask my kids if anyone mentioned responsibilities, they haven't a clue. All they remember is the number of some blue telephone. So I went to the store, bought a blue phone, and told them, "I'm the boss here, and things are done my way, so call it a blue phone as much as you want." Look, let's actually have a normal conversation about school using topics like School-Child or School-Parent. I'm only interested in solutions. Please, state a specific problem, then let's see how it was handled. Parents have a right to know how the system functions.
Second thing: at my job, I am constantly being evaluated. My results are measurable. Why do you employees in educational institutions think you should be exempt from that? Why are you so afraid when someone calls for an inspection to assess your work? Why can't your performance be measured? You already undergo external evaluations, so your work is technically assessed, but beyond raw data, there's never any actual praise or reprimands or sanctions.
So, what would happen if every one of you had a formal performance review at least every four years? What if, based on those reviews, you could actually earn a promotion to a mentor position, or lose your job because you failed to meet basic standards? Stop attacking us parents and our kids. I’d really like to hear some thoughts on this.

Honestly, I’d totally love for them to bring that in... I wish these kinds of things happened at every single job, including schools. I mean, maybe it wouldn't fix everything with a difficult (whatever you want to call them😉) kid, but it would at least weed out who's actually good at their job and who isn't...
it feels completely stupid to me that my friend, who works in finance, gets a year-end bonus while I just get stuck with the short end of the stick. It's not like I'm any less valuable or doing a bad job, but it's just always 🙂

Charles Murphy6 said:Performance reviews definitely exist.
Of course they do. But somehow, they always wind up landing on my desk in administration, where they spend all their time obsessively scrutinizing employment contracts and paperwork instead of actually doing anything useful.
That’s usually where their focus lies. You almost never see them actually step foot inside a classroom. Technically, those evaluations should be handled by specialists from the Department of Education, but let's be honest—that practically never happens.
They only bother showing up when someone is being promoted to a mentor or an advisory role.
My principal is incredibly intense when it comes to teacher performance and oversight. He’ll personally grab the gradebooks and attendance rosters just to micromanage everything we do.
We’ve had people fired—one for physically lunging at a student and even once for leaving kids completely unsupervised.
God forbid he catches a single kid wandering aimlessly through the hallway during class time.

An Austrian colleague once told me that it’s actually bad teaching to deny a student with ADHD or focus issues the chance to walk around—even if they're just heading to the restroom or grabbing a sponge to wash—but here, we can't even let a kid take an hour-long bathroom break.
I mean, anyone can hold it for 45 minutes. 🤷

Ela, I think there’s been a massive misunderstanding here. It would be absolutely horrific to deny a child with specific physical needs, like bladder issues, access to the restroom.
However, when it comes to kids with ADHD, I have to disagree with the idea that they should just be allowed to wander out of the classroom whenever they feel the need to blow off some steam.
Why?
Because teachers are legally responsible for those students during their class period. What if a kid decides to bolt out of the school building and something happens to them? Look, I might be speaking hypothetically, but that is a very real risk.

When I make this point, I’m specifically talking about those teachers who kick out the disruptive students just to get some peace and quiet—basically tossing them out of the room so their lesson can proceed without interruption.
But they are still held accountable for those kids.
One thing I genuinely respect is when a teacher is having an absolute nightmare of a day and just says to the class, "Look, guys, I'm having a rough one today, something bad happened and I really need you all to bear with me." I'm talking about middle schoolers here.
It’s incredible, honestly, how much empathy they show.
That is completely fair, unlike those people who walk into work stressed out from their own personal drama and let the whole school hear them screaming at the top of their lungs...