Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

rowdypanther12 said:Are you actually suggesting that the military shouldn't be a training ground for abusing subordinates?
This feels like that debate over corporal punishment taken to an extreme—if you're totally against it, you might as well let a kid climb on the ceiling and crap on everyone's heads.

What I'm saying is that school is becoming the one place where a functional hierarchy simply doesn't exist anymore...
If you walk into a courtroom wearing shorts, they won't even let you in. But walk into a school? These kids run the show.
Try to speak up during a debate, and you get one warning before being sent to detention overnight. Walk into a school, and you can't even get a word in edgewise...
In the military, rank is clearly defined and you know exactly how to address a superior. In a school, it’s a free-for-all. Nowadays, kids act like we're all just part of some big, equalist herd rather than students in an educational institution...
Take what happened a few days ago. Students from the high school next door were mowing grass inside our school's perimeter. When the faculty head asked them to move outside the line, they basically told her it was none of her business and said she should call 911 if she had a problem. Such arrogance and pure disrespect—and this is over things that are still illegal and could lead to actual criminal charges. But no, they have no fear, no shame, nothing. It's tragic, really. I truly feel for those kids, honestly...

You’re leaning into extremes again. It’s either going to be a professor who rules with an iron fist until the students are terrified, or one who’s so hands-off that nobody learns anything at all.🤷

Good grief, rowdypanther12, there’s really no point in arguing with you... I’m pointing out the extreme outcomes, but those extremes only happen when people stubbornly ignore a whole string of smaller issues along the way...

No, you’re describing that old-school, rigid approach where the teacher is basically an absolute authority figure—law, god, and corporal punishment all rolled into one—leaving kids trembling in fear. It sounds like something out of a school from the early 1900s, complete with rulers used for discipline.
I believe the relationship in a classroom should be a partnership built on mutual respect, rather than being rooted in fear.
That said, I also think there have to be actual consequences for breaking rules, provided the students clearly understand what those rules are.
And I don't mean vague threats like, "You won't find a job later in life if you don't get better grades," but rather consequences that happen right then and there.

Paul Wilson72 said:What I'm saying is that school is becoming the one place where a functional hierarchy simply doesn't exist anymore...
If you walk into a courtroom wearing shorts, they won't even let you in. But walk into a school? These kids run the show.
Try to speak up during a debate, and you get one warning before being sent to detention overnight. Walk into a school, and you can't even get a word in edgewise...
In the military, rank is clearly defined and you know exactly how to address a superior. In a school, it’s a free-for-all. Nowadays, kids act like we're all just part of some big, equalist herd rather than students in an educational institution...
Take what happened a few days ago. Students from the high school next door were mowing grass inside our school's perimeter. When the faculty head asked them to move outside the line, they basically told her it was none of her business and said she should call 911 if she had a problem. Such arrogance and pure disrespect—and this is over things that are still illegal and could lead to actual criminal charges. But no, they have no fear, no shame, nothing. It's tragic, really. I truly feel for those kids, honestly...

The constant obsession with comparing schools to the military 🤦, along with your rather blatant advocacy for corporal punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under this PDF), essentially kills any chance of having a meaningful conversation with you.

Goodbye.

I’ve got no clue what methods a school should use to shut down misbehavior, but I know one thing for sure. Back when I was in school—the exact same school I'm talking about now—all they had on staff was a full-time psychologist and a principal. Despite that, there were zero issues in the classroom. And believe me, we had kids in eighth grade already getting recruited for the military. Some of them were barely four years younger than their young teachers. Yet, authority still existed. There was a clear system of warnings and disciplinary actions. You went from a teacher's warning to being threatened with expulsion. Expulsion meant "one more mistake and you're out," and that actually happened. Formal reprimands were read aloud at the end of every quarter via a bulletin posted in the classrooms. Back then, no sane kid would ever dream of siding with the troublemakers. You had authority at home and authority at school. Now? It's total shit.
Our school psychologist had this specific move: during long breaks, she’d pull five or six troublemakers into her office. She’d make them answer questions, draw something, or just talk to her while the rest of us "normal kids" enjoyed a peaceful break. Also, God help you if you acted out during class; the teacher would send you straight to the principal's office, which was a nightmare for whoever got sent. It was basically brainwashing, followed by a formal note sent home to parents. That’s how we handled bullshit back then. Can schools even do that anymore?

Jessica Howard5 said:I’ve got no clue what methods a school should use to shut down misbehavior, but I know one thing for sure. Back when I was in school—the exact same school I'm talking about now—all they had on staff was a full-time psychologist and a principal. Despite that, there were zero issues in the classroom. And believe me, we had kids in eighth grade already getting recruited for the military. Some of them were barely four years younger than their young teachers. Yet, authority still existed. There was a clear system of warnings and disciplinary actions. You went from a teacher's warning to being threatened with expulsion. Expulsion meant "one more mistake and you're out," and that actually happened. Formal reprimands were read aloud at the end of every quarter via a bulletin posted in the classrooms. Back then, no sane kid would ever dream of siding with the troublemakers. You had authority at home and authority at school. Now? It's total shit.
Our school psychologist had this specific move: during long breaks, she’d pull five or six troublemakers into her office. She’d make them answer questions, draw something, or just talk to her while the rest of us "normal kids" enjoyed a peaceful break. Also, God help you if you acted out during class; the teacher would send you straight to the principal's office, which was a nightmare for whoever got sent. It was basically brainwashing, followed by a formal note sent home to parents. That’s how we handled bullshit back then. Can schools even do that anymore?

This constant nostalgia for the "good old days"—it always leads to the same logical dead end. If things were supposedly better "back then," if there was that famous sense of order and discipline people love to whine about, then—theoretically speaking—one would expect that people raised within such a system (and just to be clear: I am not referring to the political "old days") would turn out to be wonderful, decent, exemplary human beings and parents.

Yet, on the flip side, you seem to persistently insist on blaming parents as the critical weak link in the upbringing chain—the component that most frequently fails.

The contradiction—and frankly, the absurdity—of advocating for those "good old days" is this: weren't those very parents, whom you are currently lamenting, actually products of that "wonderful" old system? They were shaped by the exact same system you claim is so desirable.

😂 That psychologist sounds pretty intense! Don't be too hard on her, though—if you push her the wrong way, you might end up stuck coloring in a workbook instead of getting some actual peace and quiet during your break 🤣

Nicholas King said:This constant nostalgia for the "good old days"—it always leads to the same logical dead end. If things were supposedly better "back then," if there was that famous sense of order and discipline people love to whine about, then—theoretically speaking—one would expect that people raised within such a system (and just to be clear: I am not referring to the political "old days") would turn out to be wonderful, decent, exemplary human beings and parents.

Yet, on the flip side, you seem to persistently insist on blaming parents as the critical weak link in the upbringing chain—the component that most frequently fails.

The contradiction—and frankly, the absurdity—of advocating for those "good old days" is this: weren't those very parents, whom you are currently lamenting, actually products of that "wonderful" old system? They were shaped by the exact same system you claim is so desirable.

Yeah, you're right. When I look back at my own youth and see those people, you can see the results in the next generation. You see the direct influence of how their parents acted back then on how their kids behave now. But back then, schools actually had authority; they handled disciplinary issues much more effectively than they do today. Now? It's nowhere near as efficient. I don't know if the issue is just that the staff has changed—younger generations coming in with different training. Kids are mostly the same on average. Sure, parents and home life are key. But what about the school? If the school washes its hands of discipline and stops trying to maintain order in classrooms and hallways, what's left? What about the rest of the decent kids attending class? A small minority starts terrorizing the majority. I mean that regarding both the parents and their problematic kids. Some refuse to face the fact that their kid is a nightmare at school because they act like an angel at home. Others won't accept that their kids need extra guidance or refuse to listen to helpful suggestions. So what? Do we just let them keep terrorizing everyone until they finish middle school? I have to wonder if the school even has the knowledge, the authority, the legal tools, or—if they actually wanted to—the will to make the school a decent place for all students to be. Regardless of what happens at home.

rowdypanther12 said:No, you’re describing that old-school, rigid approach where the teacher is basically an absolute authority figure—law, god, and corporal punishment all rolled into one—leaving kids trembling in fear. It sounds like something out of a school from the early 1900s, complete with rulers used for discipline.
I believe the relationship in a classroom should be a partnership built on mutual respect, rather than being rooted in fear.
That said, I also think there have to be actual consequences for breaking rules, provided the students clearly understand what those rules are.
And I don't mean vague threats like, "You won't find a job later in life if you don't get better grades," but rather consequences that happen right then and there.

No, I’m actually advocating for a strict approach when it comes to students whose behavior warrants it. For those who understand where the line is drawn, however, maintaining a collaborative partnership—both with the students themselves and their parents—isn't just possible; it's exactly what we do.

Look, everyone agrees that breaking the rules should carry consequences, but the moment you ask what those actually look like, people freeze. They have no clue. It’s funny how things change; back when I was a kid, getting sent to the principal's office was a genuine mark of shame. Now? People just laugh it off. Even disciplinary measures feel different. To be honest, I don't recall anyone from my generation ever being truly disciplined or even expelled. Back then, issues were handled on the spot, right then and there. You dealt with it immediately instead of waiting for a mountain of paperwork to move through some bureaucratic system. Nowadays, these "reprimands" are handed out by the dozens, sometimes hundreds, all in a single year. It just doesn't hold any weight anymore.

Nicholas King said:The constant obsession with comparing schools to the military 🤦, along with your rather blatant advocacy for corporal punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under this PDF), essentially kills any chance of having a meaningful conversation with you.

Goodbye.

We can finally move forward once people like you suggest a concrete measure that is actually enforceable—something that effectively prevents these incidents from happening again. But since you don't have a solution, and instead are just advocating for letting the bullying of other kids continue just so we can "save" one pathetic aggressor, I can only come to two conclusions: either this kid was a problem back in elementary school, or he’s just following in his family's footsteps. ☕

Jessica Howard5 said:I’ve got no clue what methods a school should use to shut down misbehavior, but I know one thing for sure. Back when I was in school—the exact same school I'm talking about now—all they had on staff was a full-time psychologist and a principal. Despite that, there were zero issues in the classroom. And believe me, we had kids in eighth grade already getting recruited for the military. Some of them were barely four years younger than their young teachers. Yet, authority still existed. There was a clear system of warnings and disciplinary actions. You went from a teacher's warning to being threatened with expulsion. Expulsion meant "one more mistake and you're out," and that actually happened. Formal reprimands were read aloud at the end of every quarter via a bulletin posted in the classrooms. Back then, no sane kid would ever dream of siding with the troublemakers. You had authority at home and authority at school. Now? It's total shit.
Our school psychologist had this specific move: during long breaks, she’d pull five or six troublemakers into her office. She’d make them answer questions, draw something, or just talk to her while the rest of us "normal kids" enjoyed a peaceful break. Also, God help you if you acted out during class; the teacher would send you straight to the principal's office, which was a nightmare for whoever got sent. It was basically brainwashing, followed by a formal note sent home to parents. That’s how we handled bullshit back then. Can schools even do that anymore?

Not only can schools still do that today, they actually do—it's just that it doesn't have any impact on behavior anymore. Kids find it all hilarious now. Honestly, it’s almost tragicomic to me. I'm writing this to you as a stranger, but my dear friend, in plain English: keep doing exactly what you're doing. Today, those warnings and reprimands basically translate to "keep acting out, we don't care."

Jessica Howard5 said:Yeah, you're right. When I look back at my own youth and see those people, you can see the results in the next generation. You see the direct influence of how their parents acted back then on how their kids behave now. But back then, schools actually had authority; they handled disciplinary issues much more effectively than they do today. Now? It's nowhere near as efficient. I don't know if the issue is just that the staff has changed—younger generations coming in with different training. Kids are mostly the same on average. Sure, parents and home life are key. But what about the school? If the school washes its hands of discipline and stops trying to maintain order in classrooms and hallways, what's left? What about the rest of the decent kids attending class? A small minority starts terrorizing the majority. I mean that regarding both the parents and their problematic kids. Some refuse to face the fact that their kid is a nightmare at school because they act like an angel at home. Others won't accept that their kids need extra guidance or refuse to listen to helpful suggestions. So what? Do we just let them keep terrorizing everyone until they finish middle school? I have to wonder if the school even has the knowledge, the authority, the legal tools, or—if they actually wanted to—the will to make the school a decent place for all students to be. Regardless of what happens at home.

Well, looking at some of these forums, it really does seem like a tiny minority can hold the majority hostage, ruining classes with their behavior and making kids feel anxious or sick to their stomachs just thinking about coming to school because they don't know what the bully will do next.
Of course, the moment you speak plainly and honestly—saying that these aggressive kids need specialized classrooms or specific interventions—you suddenly become the villain.
As for the schools, they have plenty of ways to file paperwork, hold meetings, and go through endless bureaucracy. Technically, a Principal has the power to expel problematic students, but they rarely have the heart or the drive to actually do it. And as for a peaceful coexistence between teachers and a mix of good and bad students? Guess what, that's a total fairy tale.

To be honest, nobody seems to respond to the parents here who actually have children being victimized by these bullies. It feels like it's being ignored. These kids don't just want to learn; they want peace and cooperation. Instead, there seems to be this persistent effort to protect the aggressors.

I see people bringing up detention again.
Detention isn't some catch-all solution for every kid acting out. We certainly didn't just throw them in there without cause. Everything we do is based on specific observations; if issues are identified, we follow those findings. Students are actually transitioned to different schools equipped with specialized departments and educators trained in behavioral psychology—people who truly understand how to handle specific types of conduct.

And please, I am asking you to seriously stop making comparisons to the "good old days" or reminiscing about "discipline that worked." Such rhetoric will be met with sanctions—we won't tolerate that kind of talk here.

Jessica Howard5 said:Yeah, you're right. When I look back at my own youth and see those people, you can see the results in the next generation. You see the direct influence of how their parents acted back then on how their kids behave now. But back then, schools actually had authority; they handled disciplinary issues much more effectively than they do today. Now? It's nowhere near as efficient. I don't know if the issue is just that the staff has changed—younger generations coming in with different training. Kids are mostly the same on average. Sure, parents and home life are key. But what about the school? If the school washes its hands of discipline and stops trying to maintain order in classrooms and hallways, what's left? What about the rest of the decent kids attending class? A small minority starts terrorizing the majority. I mean that regarding both the parents and their problematic kids. Some refuse to face the fact that their kid is a nightmare at school because they act like an angel at home. Others won't accept that their kids need extra guidance or refuse to listen to helpful suggestions. So what? Do we just let them keep terrorizing everyone until they finish middle school? I have to wonder if the school even has the knowledge, the authority, the legal tools, or—if they actually wanted to—the will to make the school a decent place for all students to be. Regardless of what happens at home.

I would say that while the knowledge and the desire might be there, the authority and the legal tools certainly aren't.
The core of the entire issue, I think, is this lack of authority that seems to stem from the general climate of our society.
Like I mentioned before—if a child (and it’s not just happening at home) constantly hears people mocking and belittling teachers and the school system itself, then naturally, they’re going to react with sarcasm to any attempt to correct their behavior, whether that's done gently or through actual consequences.
And as for those parents who simply refuse to listen to feedback—which, unfortunately, seems to be far too many—there isn't much you can do. Really, nothing at all.

Honestly, I always get a good laugh whenever someone starts waxing poetic about the "good old days." 🤣

See, I actually went to school during those supposedly "magical" years. And right here in Indianapolis, too. Looking back, it wasn't some perfect utopia—it was a total mixed bag, just like it is now. We had drug users in our classes, bullying was everywhere, guys were getting into fights, girls were scrapping... there were kids being picked on both physically and mentally. I even remember teachers practically running out of the classroom in tears.

If you ask me, that environment is exactly what produced the little monsters we see in middle school today... 😉

Back when I was in school, we had exactly one troublemaker in our class, and he ended up getting expelled after he torched the school's woodshop.

Now a whole mob of followers is rallying around one truly problematic student, which makes the entire situation much worse...

rowdypanther12 said:🤷
I don't really see how that would be enough to make my parents change how they handle things.
But even if it was, you're still basically giving a kid a free week to just sit around, watch TV, and surf the web—assuming the parents can even keep them in the house long enough to supervise them.🤷

Look, if they get suspended from school twice and then just end up at a boarding school, and even *that* doesn't touch them, then these parents clearly have no clue how to handle their own kids.

jadetinker85 said:Back when I was in school, we had exactly one troublemaker in our class, and he ended up getting expelled after he torched the school's woodshop.

So you're telling me everyone else was just perfect little angels?

I don't know, man. Why does that sound so hard to believe? 🤷

It’s honestly hard to wrap your head around how bad things have gotten until you actually talk to people who’ve been in the education system for, like, thirty years. They see the shift. I mean, isn't the fact that they're cutting out outdoor learning programs and field trips enough of a red flag? Even fewer teachers want to lead senior trips anymore. At my local high school, they just scrapped them entirely.
Yeah, we definitely did some wild stuff back in the day, but at least we didn't have to worry about a teacher getting sued or losing their entire career just for reacting to something.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Honestly, I always get a good laugh whenever someone starts waxing poetic about the "good old days." 🤣

See, I actually went to school during those supposedly "magical" years. And right here in Indianapolis, too. Looking back, it wasn't some perfect utopia—it was a total mixed bag, just like it is now. We had drug users in our classes, bullying was everywhere, guys were getting into fights, girls were scrapping... there were kids being picked on both physically and mentally. I even remember teachers practically running out of the classroom in tears.

If you ask me, that environment is exactly what produced the little monsters we see in middle school today... 😉

I remember those types of characters from back then, too. I remember fights breaking out right in front of the school because kids from other schools showed up specifically to scrap. There was never a shortage of reasons—losing an interscholastic game, some girl walking with a guy from our school... it was always happening (unfortunately), and it’ll keep happening. But that stuff happened both inside and outside of school, and that's a police matter. Same goes for neighborhood gangs; they've always existed and always will. That's also a police matter. What actually worries me is how indifferent schools have become toward handling problems within their own walls. Nowadays, it's become trendy to say, "We can't," "We aren't allowed," "We don't have the authority..." or "That's not our business, we aren't here to raise other people's kids..."
That's what bugs me. Invoking the "old days" only works in the sense that back then, schools actually knew how, wanted to, and were able to deal with things. What has actually changed about kids from then to now? Almost nothing. They're basically the same, just with smartphones and TVs added to the mix...
Bottom line: the kids haven't changed much, but the schools have (in terms of approach, willpower, and problem-solving). So let's stop judging the kids. They need help—every single one of them, including both the victims and the bullies. I just think that with the increasingly common attitude among educators that this isn't their job or responsibility, we're seeing worse and worse results, and the gap between the two groups of kids and their parents is just widening.

Jason Ortiz5 said:So you're telling me everyone else was just perfect little angels?

I don't know, man. Why does that sound so hard to believe? 🤷

Fair point. Somehow, I always seemed to end up in the "good" classes—at least behaviorally. Back in middle school, our class was actually voted the best and won a free day off as a reward. We ended up complaining about it because we were already such a mismatched group anyway. 😁