Why did Jesus die?

Anthony Perez9 said:But Harold Reyes3 actually has a point. I mean, Jesus swore by God three separate times that He’d spare Him from the agony of the cross. In the end, He just sort of mumbled, "Thy will be done," leaving it up to God's call.

So, what was God's actual will? Muslims claim God answered the painful cries of His beloved prophet, Jesus. Maybe Christians just read the room wrong. 🤷

Harold Reyes3:
You'll get a detailed answer from the Gospel you Christians don't recognize, the Gospel of Barnabas, so we can see what it says about this case.

Who should we believe—the Bible we have today, which is full of errors even regarding Jesus' crucifixion, or the Gospel of Barnabas, which doesn't have those contradictions? After all, the Quran also supports the Gospel of Barnabas..

You really shouldn't have gone there. It's been explained a thousand times already: that thing is clearly a forgery.

Anthony Perez9, you absolute legend!!! 😁
Was Jesus actually afraid of dying? Or was he just feeling the weight of it all?
Did it really haunt him that much?
I mean, didn't he predict several times that he’d be betrayed and condemned?
Isn't that literally why he came here in the first place??

-Jesus wasn't praying to escape death itself, but rather to be cleared of the charges used against him during that midnight trial. If you look at the context, it's pretty obvious what his actual request was.

((Taken from: CD 31 M.G.P. 4444 and translated into my humble American English))
Biblical scholars go into way more detail than this, but honestly, the gist is right there above.
Since you're so neutral and unshakable, Anthony Perez9, 🙂 I could send you a much more detailed breakdown in German via your inbox.

Big regards to a great forum regular👍

Look, Harold Reyes3, I’m going to set aside your accusations about the Bible—specifically how you cherry-pick verses whenever it suits your narrative—and your nonsense regarding the Quran, where you claim Muhammad was inspired by Satan to speak about Allah's daughters before Gabriel had to step in and correct him. I'll save that fight for another day and a different thread because we are clearly drifting OFF topic here. And for heaven's sake, don't bring up pork—Jesus didn't die because of bacon!

Harold Reyes3 said:

All you Christians—or whatever you call yourselves...
Oh right, those are your favorite verses, and they can't be mistakes (of course, a mistake is just anything that doesn't fit your narrative... 🙄 )
You know perfectly well that anyone who believes Jesus is God will be rejected on Judgment Day, right?

Look, I’m telling you again, argue all you want👍 but it is what it is.

I’ve only shown you a tiny fraction of the massive list of errors out there, yet you still just shrug. Whenever you actually open the Bible, you just sniff and skim right over them like they aren't even there.👍

You know perfectly well that anyone who believes Jesus is God will be rejected on Judgment Day, right?

That’s exactly my point! He’s going to reject every Christian who claims he is God. Jesus never claimed to be God himself; I have mountains of evidence from the Bible, the Quran, and plain old logic proving he isn't.

Can you seriously picture Jesus being God? Like, the God who created the entire universe being a tiny baby in diapers having his butt wiped by his mom after a diaper change?🙄

Secondly, there is a ton of biblical proof that Jesus isn't God. If you’ve already locked your mind against that, there’s no changing it if you leave your brain in the closet.

Here is what Jesus says:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"".

Who is Jesus ascending to? Some other God, or himself? Use some logic!

Jesus says God is one, but you guys try to invent two, three, or more of them.🙄

Either Jesus lacks knowledge, or you believe in a God who doesn't know things.

Mark 13:32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, only the Father."

Jesus doesn't know, but the Father does. Does that sound like Jesus is God to you?🙄

Jesus also says:
John 14:28 "...For the Father is greater than I""

If Jesus equals the Father/God, why does Jesus say Jesus < Father?

Again, zero logic here.

Was Jesus a man???

According to the Bible, yes.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"

And then there is this verse elsewhere:

Hosea 11:9 "...for I am God, not a man"

So, you can conclude that:

The man Jesus

God is not a man.

Which leads me to the conclusion that God is not Jesus.

It’s incredibly simple. Just open the Bible and check for yourself. How hard can that be to understand?

And Jesus says he will reject Christians on Judgment Day. Here is the proof from the Bible: it's happening precisely because you call him God.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

Anyway, getting back ON-TOPIC:
How do you interpret the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah suffering and being killed?
Specifically Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22?

Let me see what it says—go find those texts for me.

You only ever show up here acting like you’re some kind of expert because you have a handful of specific sources you copy-paste whenever it suits your agenda. It’s honestly pathetic. I’m saying this because you clearly don't even know about Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53—two absolutely massive pillars in the Old Testament that detail the suffering and death of the Messiah. How can you claim to know anything when you're missing such elementary biblical truths? And yet, you have the nerve to lecture Christians who live by the Bible every single day—people who draw actual strength, hope, and purpose from these words. You're trying to lecture us on the crucifixion when you don't even grasp the basics of what the Bible actually says about it. Get real.

Since you clearly can't be bothered to actually read what's written in those sections I mentioned, fine—here they are in their entirety:

The Book of Isaiah, 52:13 - 53:12

Look, my Servant is going to make it happen. He’s going to rise up, be exalted, and glorified!

Just like everyone else who saw him—they were absolutely horrified. His face was so grotesquely disfigured that he didn't even look human anymore. It was haunting.

He’s going to leave nations absolutely stunned. We're talking about kings being rendered speechless, just sitting there in total silence because they're finally facing truths that nobody ever dared to mention. They'll be grappling with things they never even dreamed existed. It makes you wonder: who could actually find the faith to believe what's been laid out before them? Who's truly prepared to witness the hand of Jehovah?

He stood there before us like a dry, withered root clawing its way out of parched earth. There wasn't a shred of beauty in him, nothing to catch the eye, let alone anything remotely attractive that would make you want to look twice. He was despised, totally cast aside by everyone. It hurts, man—it really does. To be someone who’s just constantly suffering, where people won't even look you in the eye because they're turning away... He was looked down on, rejected by the world.

He carried our sicknesses right on His own shoulders. He took all our pain upon Himself while we just sat there, thinking God was out to punish and humiliate Him. It was Him who was pierced because of our sins—He was the one torn apart by our sheer cruelty. The punishment fell on Him so that we could finally have peace, and He’s the one who healed our wounds.

We were all just wandering around like lost sheep, everyone doing their own thing and heading in completely different directions. Then Jehovah stepped in and laid that whole mess of lawlessness right on us. They beat him senseless, but he didn't say a damn word. He just took it. It was like watching a lamb being led to the slaughter—completely silent, totally submissive, just like a sheep standing there while they shear it. He wouldn't even open his mouth. They used brute force and rigged trials to finish him off. I mean, seriously, who’s actually going to stand up for him? Who cares about what happens to him? And now, he’s just gone, wiped right out of this living world, all because of the sins of his people. Just gone.

They decided to bury him right alongside the criminals, even though his grave should have been reserved for the wealthy—and the kicker is, he never did anything wrong, nor did he ever utter a single lie.

Will Jehovah actually be pleased with crushing someone through nothing but pure agony? I mean, seriously? Is he really going to watch someone sacrifice their entire life just for a pension? We'll just have to wait and see if the kids end up paying the price, or if they somehow manage to drag out their days. In the end, I guess Jehovah's will just gets its way regardless.

It’s only through the absolute agony of the soul that we finally see the light and truly feast on the knowledge of it. My righteous Servant will justify many, taking all their guilt upon himself.That’s why I’m going to leave him an incredible inheritance—I'll let him divide the spoils using everything I've built. I stepped up and put my life on the line, even when people branded me one of the villains, just so I could carry the weight of everyone else's sins and stand up for the wrongdoers.

Prophet Isaiah wrote this stuff around 700 B.C. Paul Kern12 already went on about how reliable this text actually is.

The second section is even older. We’re talking about stuff written around 1000 BC by King David himself—the man Jesus is physically descended from, the "Son of David."
Psalm 22 is in green, and I added the fulfillment of the prophecy in blue...
You be the judge.

Psalm. David's.
(2) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You feel so far from my cries.
At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice: "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" Which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)
(3) My God, I scream all day long, but you don't answer; I cry out through the night, and there's no rest.
(4) And yet, you dwell in the Holy Place, the Hope of Israel!
(5) In you our ancestors put their trust, they trusted in you, and you delivered them;
(6) They cried out to you and were saved; they trusted in you and were not put to shame.
(7) But I am a worm, not a man, the laughingstock of people and the scorn of nations.
(8) Those who lead me around mock me, jeering at me, wagging their lips and shaking their heads:
Passersby stood there mocking him, wagging their heads: "You who tear down the Temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!" (Matthew 27:39-40)
(9) "He trusts in Jehovah; let Him deliver Him now, let Him save Him if He delights in him!"
It was the same with the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders, mocking and saying: "He saved others, but he can't save himself! He is the King of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now so we can believe in him! He trusted in God! Let Him deliver Him now if He delights in him! He said, 'I am the Son of God!'" (Matthew 27:41-43)
(10) From my mother's womb you have been my strength; you gave me peace on my mother's breast.
(11) I was entrusted to you from my mother's womb; from my mother's arms, you are my God.
But the angel said to her: "Do not be afraid, Mary! You have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. (Luke 1:30-32)
(12) Don't pull away from me, trouble is close, and there's no one left to help me.
Then all his disciples deserted him and fled. (Matthew 26:56)
(13) Many bulls surround me; powerful oxen hem me in.
(14) Their jaws tear into me like a lion ripping its prey and roaring.
(15) Like water poured out, all my bones are out of joint;
...but then one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed. (John 19:34)
my heart feels like wax, melting in my chest.
And he took Peter, James, and John with him. He was seized by terror and anguish, so he said to them: "My soul is deeply grieved!" (Mark 14:33-34)
(16) My throat is dry like a clay pot, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you have cast me into the dust of death.
Afterward, since Jesus knew that everything had been fulfilled to meet the Scriptures, he said: "I am thirsty." (John 19:28)
(17) A pack of dogs surrounds me; a gang of criminals hems me in. They pierced my hands and feet,
And when they arrived at the place called Calvary, there they crucified him. (Luke 23:33)
He replied to them: "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, or put my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)
(18) I could count every single one of my bones, yet they just stare at me and gawk.
The people stood there watching... (Luke 23:35)
(19) They divide my clothes among themselves and cast lots for my garment.
As for the soldiers, after they crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four parts—one for each soldier. But they took his tunic, which was seamless, woven from top to bottom in one piece. So they said to each other, "Let's not tear it, but rather cast lots for it to see who gets it." (John 19:23-24)
(20) But you, O Jehovah, do not stay far away; my strength, hurry and help me!
(21) Tear my soul away with a sword, rescue my life from the jaws of the dogs.
(22) Save me from the mouths of lions and my wretched soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
(23) And now, I will declare your name to my brothers; I will praise you in the midst of the congregation.
Look, I’m just handing back what was given to me in the first place: Christ died for our sins, just like the Scriptures say; He was buried and rose again on the third day according to the Word; then He appeared to Peter, and then to the twelve. After that, He showed Himself to over five hundred brothers at once—most of them are still around today, and some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, and then to all the apostles. Finally, as if I were the very last of the last, He appeared to me. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8)
(24) "You who fear Jehovah, praise Him! All of you from Jacob's lineage, sing His praises! Every descendant of Israel, tremble before Him! (25) Because He hasn't looked away or forgotten the suffering of the lowly; He hasn't hidden His face from them; when they called out to Him, He heard."
(26) That’s why I’ll praise You in the great assembly, fulfilling Your vows before Your faithful people.
(27) The poor will eat their fill and praise Jehovah, those who seek Him: may your hearts live forever!
(28) All the corners of the earth will remember Him and turn back to Jehovah; every pagan family will fall down before Him.
(29) For the kingdom belongs to Jehovah; He rules over the nations.
(30) Everyone dwelling in the earth will bow to Him alone, and everyone who descends into the dust will bow before Him. And my soul will live for Him,
(31) and my children will serve Him. They will tell the Lord's story
(32) to the next generation, preaching His righteousness to the people to come: "This is what Jehovah has done!"

Cheers
mš

Quote:

Alex Ramos91 says: cut... Psalm. David's. (2) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You are far from my cries for help. At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" Which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46) cut... Cheers mš

Forgive me for jumping into your conversation with Harold Reyes3. I had a question pop into my head while reading your post. Why is it phrased here as: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Does Eli literally mean God?

And then there's this quote from Jehovah: "My Servant will justify many and take their guilt upon himself." — A servant? Or the Son? Or am I missing something? Please clarify if I've got it wrong.

Also: "My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer; I cry out at night, but I find no rest."

And: "From my mother's womb, I have been yours; from my mother's breast, you are my God."

So, the question is: Why is God being addressed as God in all these places?

One last thing—do you know how this part goes in the original: "He will be great and will be called the Only Begotten Son."?

Best regards.

You’re acting like someone who just cherry-picks specific verses to suit your own agenda. I say this because you aren't even aware of Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53—two massive pillars in the OT that describe a Messiah destined to suffer and die. You’re missing these fundamental parts of the Bible, yet you have the nerve to lecture Christians who live by these scriptures every single day for strength and purpose... especially regarding the death of Jesus, a topic where you clearly lack the basic biblical foundation.

It isn't about digging through the Bible; why should I have to hunt for proof when I can just cite the Bible and the Quran to back my points? I post my arguments here so you don't have to go digging through books just to call me out. 🙄

Let’s use some actual logic here. What does it even mean for Jesus to die for our sins?

What kind of "sins" are we talking about? We know there is no concept of original sin stemming from Adam and Eve, because Jesus says children go to heaven. That proves they are sinless—after all, how could anyone enter heaven carrying sin?

Second, since we’ve cleared up the whole original sin issue, what sins are left? It's obviously the things we do now and the things we'll do in the future. Why is the idea that Jesus carries our sins so dangerous? Because it creates a loophole. Someone might think, "Hey, if He died for my sins, I can do whatever I want as long as I believe." People could murder, rape, steal, or abuse, thinking Jesus will just shoulder the blame.
It’s totally illogical. Believe whatever you want, but to me, common sense aligns much better with what God says in the Quran. Take a good look at it—I think anyone using their head will see what

God says in the Quran:

15. Whoever follows the straight path does so for their own benefit, but whoever wanders astray does so to their own detriment. And no sinner shall bear the burden of another. And We never punish a nation until We have sent a messenger!

160. Whoever does a good deed will be rewarded tenfold, but whoever does an evil deed will only be punished according to its weight, and no injustice will be done to them.

I think anyone—whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Hindu—would agree with what God is saying here.

And no sinner shall bear the burden of another.

To me, that’s just pure logic and common sense. You answer for your own actions, not someone else.

JESUS IS NOT A SINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

JESUS IS NOT A SINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter. Nobody is going to carry someone else's baggage; that's the whole point.

Just because Jesus is sinless doesn't mean he's going to take the fall for all our mistakes.

God says:

41. If they try to drag you into their lies, just tell them: "My business is mine, and yours is yours; you aren't responsible for my actions, and I’m not responsible for yours."

42. Some people show up just to listen. But can you actually make the deaf hear, especially when they lack common sense?

43. Then there are those who just watch you. Can you really guide the blind toward the right path if they have no reason?

44. Truly, Allah will never treat people unfairly; we are the ones creating our own mess..

25. Say: "You won't be held accountable for our sins, and we won't be held accountable for yours."

26. Say: "Our Lord will gather us all and judge us fairly. He is the righteous, all-knowing Judge."

There is absolutely zero logic in thinking Jesus would shoulder other people's sins. First off, that would be totally unfair to him. Why should Jesus take the blame for someone committing a crime just to satisfy their impulses? What does he have to do with someone murdering an innocent person, stealing, or beating someone up?

I feel like I've watched this exact same argument loop about ten times now, just like a broken record stuck in a groove somewhere in the Midwest.

Harold Reyes3 said:

You’re acting like someone who just cherry-picks specific verses to suit your own agenda. I say this because you aren't even aware of Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53—two massive pillars in the OT that describe a Messiah destined to suffer and die. You’re missing these fundamental parts of the Bible, yet you have the nerve to lecture Christians who live by these scriptures every single day for strength and purpose... especially regarding the death of Jesus, a topic where you clearly lack the basic biblical foundation.

It isn't about digging through the Bible; why should I have to hunt for proof when I can just cite the Bible and the Quran to back my points? I post my arguments here so you don't have to go digging through books just to call me out. 🙄

Let’s use some actual logic here. What does it even mean for Jesus to die for our sins?

What kind of "sins" are we talking about? We know there is no concept of original sin stemming from Adam and Eve, because Jesus says children go to heaven. That proves they are sinless—after all, how could anyone enter heaven carrying sin?

Second, since we’ve cleared up the whole original sin issue, what sins are left? It's obviously the things we do now and the things we'll do in the future. Why is the idea that Jesus carries our sins so dangerous? Because it creates a loophole. Someone might think, "Hey, if He died for my sins, I can do whatever I want as long as I believe." People could murder, rape, steal, or abuse, thinking Jesus will just shoulder the blame.
It’s totally illogical. Believe whatever you want, but to me, common sense aligns much better with what God says in the Quran. Take a good look at it—I think anyone using their head will see what

God says in the Quran:

15. Whoever follows the straight path does so for their own benefit, but whoever wanders astray does so to their own detriment. And no sinner shall bear the burden of another. And We never punish a nation until We have sent a messenger!

160. Whoever does a good deed will be rewarded tenfold, but whoever does an evil deed will only be punished according to its weight, and no injustice will be done to them.

I think anyone—whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Hindu—would agree with what God is saying here.

And no sinner shall bear the burden of another.

To me, that’s just pure logic and common sense. You answer for your own actions, not someone else.

Biblical Christianity doesn't teach the concept of original sin. We haven't inherited sin itself, but rather a sinful nature—a tendency toward it. A small child isn't a sinner; they become a sinner as they grow up. Just as a child isn't held accountable by secular laws until a certain age, perhaps they aren't held accountable by God either. However, they carry the seed of a sinful nature within them—which, I suspect, becomes more apparent as they mature. They begin to rebel against parents, school, authority in general, and eventually, against God. I could elaborate on this further if you're interested.

Anyone who confesses Jesus as their Savior, repents, and relies on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross receives His righteousness. For God has said: "The wages of sin is death." Jesus didn't die for His own sins—since He had none—but for the sins of those who believe in Him (though, unfortunately, I think there are very few true Christians who truly accept Him). I am not referring to "nominal Christians" here. Anyone who accepts Him is born again—born from above, from God. Through this, they become God's children. God no longer views them through the lens of their imperfections, but through His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, God sees them as clean. A true, born-again Christian wouldn't intentionally sin! They wouldn't just do whatever they please, committing murder, theft, or rape. Those "Christians" who behave that way are merely proving that they were never truly born again.
For example: Imagine you, Harold Reyes3, were adopted by the Queen of England and recognized as her son. You are still the same old Harold Reyes—but now, you are a prince. It no longer suits you to get drunk, or act out, or behave crudely... simply because you are a prince. That is, of course, a bit of a caricature, but I am trying to bring the concept closer to what I mean.

Harold Reyes3 said:Well, look at the Quran: if you set up partners alongside God, you're essentially calling God a liar. God says He stands alone, with no other gods, yet people claim otherwise. By doing that, you're telling God He's wrong and stripping Him of His rightful place by giving that devotion to made-up idols instead.
That is a direct hit against God.

And when it comes to sins involving hurting others? Those are huge sins too! God commands us to do good for people—helping the poor, our families, orphans, the sick, and so on.

That’s just a direct hit on your own abilities; you clearly see the situation for what it actually is.

Kenneth Barnes7 said:Quote:

Alex Ramos91 says: cut... Psalm. David's. (2) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You are far from my cries for help. At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" Which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46) cut... Cheers mš

Forgive me for jumping into your conversation with Harold Reyes3. I had a question pop into my head while reading your post. Why is it phrased here as: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Does Eli literally mean God?

And then there's this quote from Jehovah: "My Servant will justify many and take their guilt upon himself." — A servant? Or the Son? Or am I missing something? Please clarify if I've got it wrong.

Also: "My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer; I cry out at night, but I find no rest."

And: "From my mother's womb, I have been yours; from my mother's breast, you are my God."

So, the question is: Why is God being addressed as God in all these places?

One last thing—do you know how this part goes in the original: "He will be great and will be called the Only Begotten Son."?

Best regards.

Right back at you, Kenneth Barnes7. 🙂

It’s a fair enough question, I guess, but honestly, this is veering into OFF topic territory—not that this miserable pig isn't already taking us there—but we really should stick to the point: Why did Jesus die?

If I’m following your logic, you're basically asking whether Jesus is actually God himself, or just a man for whom God (Allah/Jehovah) was God. If there’s a specific thread for that kind of stuff, put it there so we can keep the debate going. (And if there isn't one, go ahead and start it)...

Look, what I’m trying to get at here is this: How else are you supposed to interpret these glaring Old Testament prophecies about a Messiah who has to suffer and die for the sins of others, unless they were perfectly fulfilled through the life and work of Jesus Christ? 😉

Harold Reyes3 said:

You’re acting like someone who just cherry-picks specific verses to suit your own agenda. I say this because you aren't even aware of Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53—two massive pillars in the OT that describe a Messiah destined to suffer and die. You’re missing these fundamental parts of the Bible, yet you have the nerve to lecture Christians who live by these scriptures every single day for strength and purpose... especially regarding the death of Jesus, a topic where you clearly lack the basic biblical foundation.

It isn't about digging through the Bible; why should I have to hunt for proof when I can just cite the Bible and the Quran to back my points? I post my arguments here so you don't have to go digging through books just to call me out. 🙄

Let’s use some actual logic here. What does it even mean for Jesus to die for our sins?

What kind of "sins" are we talking about? We know there is no concept of original sin stemming from Adam and Eve, because Jesus says children go to heaven. That proves they are sinless—after all, how could anyone enter heaven carrying sin?

Second, since we’ve cleared up the whole original sin issue, what sins are left? It's obviously the things we do now and the things we'll do in the future. Why is the idea that Jesus carries our sins so dangerous? Because it creates a loophole. Someone might think, "Hey, if He died for my sins, I can do whatever I want as long as I believe." People could murder, rape, steal, or abuse, thinking Jesus will just shoulder the blame.
It’s totally illogical. Believe whatever you want, but to me, common sense aligns much better with what God says in the Quran. Take a good look at it—I think anyone using their head will see what

God says in the Quran:

15. Whoever follows the straight path does so for their own benefit, but whoever wanders astray does so to their own detriment. And no sinner shall bear the burden of another. And We never punish a nation until We have sent a messenger!

160. Whoever does a good deed will be rewarded tenfold, but whoever does an evil deed will only be punished according to its weight, and no injustice will be done to them.

I think anyone—whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Hindu—would agree with what God is saying here.

And no sinner shall bear the burden of another.

To me, that’s just pure logic and common sense. You answer for your own actions, not someone else.

You’re dodging the question again, 🤦

I asked for your take on the Old Testament prophecies, and all I get back is this endless philosophical rambling...

I am repeating the exact same question from my last post: how else can you interpret these blatant Old Testament prophecies about a Messiah who is destined to suffer and die for the sins of others, if not by seeing them fulfilled through the life and work of Jesus Christ?

Once we actually deal with that, then maybe we can move on to how Jesus could die for someone else's sins. 😉

Alex Ramos91 said:Right back at you, Kenneth Barnes7. 🙂

It’s a fair enough question, I guess, but honestly, this is veering into OFF topic territory—not that this miserable pig isn't already taking us there—but we really should stick to the point: Why did Jesus die?

If I’m following your logic, you're basically asking whether Jesus is actually God himself, or just a man for whom God (Allah/Jehovah) was God. If there’s a specific thread for that kind of stuff, put it there so we can keep the debate going. (And if there isn't one, go ahead and start it)...

Look, what I’m trying to get at here is this: How else are you supposed to interpret these glaring Old Testament prophecies about a Messiah who has to suffer and die for the sins of others, unless they were perfectly fulfilled through the life and work of Jesus Christ? 😉

It’s pretty straightforward. The Old Testament is basically a Jewish text that uses the "Servant of God" as an allegory for Israel, representing God's faithful people.
There aren't any prophecies about Jesus.

Those Gnostic types basically twisted the mentions of God's Servant just to suit their own agenda. They just fabricated the whole story about Jesus in the New Testament.They just took those details and baked them right into the narrative like they were actual facts. It was probably some guy named Mark writing it as an allegory, but then someone else came along and took him way too literally.

It's a pretty straightforward explanation—even someone without a brain could wrap their head around it.

If that's not the case, we're screwed. Spot-on prophecies that nail hundreds of tiny details. Some of them were fulfilled in Jesus centuries ago—though it’s all pretty debatable. Then you have this book that exists mainly to broadcast prophecies about Jesus, basically keeping the Jewish people trapped in a massive delusion.

Sure, it’s absurd, but people will believe just about anything when it comes to faith. It's like how some Muslims see Muhammad in the New Testament, while Christians find Jesus in the Old Testament—or even those Sai Baba followers. History just keeps looping back on itself.

Anthony Perez9 said:It’s pretty straightforward. The Old Testament is basically a Jewish text that uses the "Servant of God" as an allegory for Israel, representing God's faithful people.
There aren't any prophecies about Jesus.

Those Gnostic types basically twisted the mentions of God's Servant just to suit their own agenda. They just fabricated the whole story about Jesus in the New Testament.They just took those details and baked them right into the narrative like they were actual facts. It was probably some guy named Mark writing it as an allegory, but then someone else came along and took him way too literally.

It's a pretty straightforward explanation—even someone without a brain could wrap their head around it.

If that's not the case, we're screwed. Spot-on prophecies that nail hundreds of tiny details. Some of them were fulfilled in Jesus centuries ago—though it’s all pretty debatable. Then you have this book that exists mainly to broadcast prophecies about Jesus, basically keeping the Jewish people trapped in a massive delusion.

Sure, it’s absurd, but people will believe just about anything when it comes to faith. It's like how some Muslims see Muhammad in the New Testament, while Christians find Jesus in the Old Testament—or even those Sai Baba followers. History just keeps looping back on itself.

But he was pierced for the sins of his people. (Isaiah)

You’ve already rambled about this rare occurrence, but you haven't convinced me! 😛

Alex Ramos91 said:Right back at you, Kenneth Barnes7. 🙂

It’s a fair enough question, I guess, but honestly, this is veering into OFF topic territory—not that this miserable pig isn't already taking us there—but we really should stick to the point: Why did Jesus die?

If I’m following your logic, you're basically asking whether Jesus is actually God himself, or just a man for whom God (Allah/Jehovah) was God. If there’s a specific thread for that kind of stuff, put it there so we can keep the debate going. (And if there isn't one, go ahead and start it)...

Look, what I’m trying to get at here is this: How else are you supposed to interpret these glaring Old Testament prophecies about a Messiah who has to suffer and die for the sins of others, unless they were perfectly fulfilled through the life and work of Jesus Christ? 😉

Look, I asked what I asked. Why address God with those specific words? I wasn't trying to hijack the thread, nor do I think a new one is necessary right now. I just wanted a quick clarification that I believe is appropriate here—something that won't devolve into trolling or massive derailments. I'm asking about the circumstances of Jesus' crucifixion and the events surrounding it, specifically regarding the quotes you brought up. I don't see how answering my question constitutes being OFF topic. I hope the moderators agree.

For instance, St. Augustine said: ""He does not call Himself Father in relation to Himself, but only in relation to the Son; viewed in Himself, He is simply God."

So, how does He view His relationship with His Son? How does He perceive that bond?

Also, Matthew 24:35-36 states: 35. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36. "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

How can the knowledge of the Father and the Son be different if they are one?

My intention here is simple: I want to understand the Christian perspective on these things. Honestly, there's no malice intended. Anyone who knows me on this forum knows I never attack "others." If anyone finds these questions offensive, I sincerely apologize.

Best regards. 🙂

P.S. If the admins decide this is OFF topic, I'd ask them to move it to the main Christianity thread. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

Kenneth Barnes7 said:Look, I asked what I asked. Why address God with those specific words? I wasn't trying to hijack the thread, nor do I think a new one is necessary right now. I just wanted a quick clarification that I believe is appropriate here—something that won't devolve into trolling or massive derailments. I'm asking about the circumstances of Jesus' crucifixion and the events surrounding it, specifically regarding the quotes you brought up. I don't see how answering my question constitutes being OFF topic. I hope the moderators agree.

For instance, St. Augustine said: ""He does not call Himself Father in relation to Himself, but only in relation to the Son; viewed in Himself, He is simply God."

So, how does He view His relationship with His Son? How does He perceive that bond?

Also, Matthew 24:35-36 states: 35. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36. "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

How can the knowledge of the Father and the Son be different if they are one?

My intention here is simple: I want to understand the Christian perspective on these things. Honestly, there's no malice intended. Anyone who knows me on this forum knows I never attack "others." If anyone finds these questions offensive, I sincerely apologize.

Best regards. 🙂

P.S. If the admins decide this is OFF topic, I'd ask them to move it to the main Christianity thread. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

Look, I never thought you had bad intentions 😉 moreover, I said your questions were fair, but I also told Harold Reyes3 that I wanted to go through these specific texts first before we dive into the whole debate about whether Jesus is God and/or man.

Fine, if you really want me to get straight to the point:

As the Son of God, Jesus has been the Father's Son for all eternity. Before anything was ever created—before the heavens or the earth even existed—God existed in a relationship of eternal love, fellowship, and life between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If that wasn't the case, God couldn't be what the Bible says He is: Love.

Love is God’s core attribute (alongside His holiness). God was love long before He made the universe or humanity. To truly *be* love, He had to have someone to love and someone to receive that love from. Otherwise, God's primary nature would depend on His creation—but God doesn't depend on anything He created. In other words, even if God hadn't created the world or humans, He still would have been love.

We can look at the relationship between the Father and the Son through the lens of a human father and son. A human son shares the same human nature as his father. And just because a son is subordinate to his father because he's the head of the family doesn't make him any less of a human being. Subordination doesn't imply inferiority..

In the exact same way, Jesus (the Son) possesses the same divine nature as His Father, but the fact that He submits to the Father's will doesn't mean He is inferior in His divine essence. 🙂

Furthermore, just as my father is my human ancestor, the Father is Jesus' God.

In the fullness of time, the Father decided to fix the problem of sin and the sinful nature of mankind, so He sent His Son to Earth in human form to live the kind of human life He originally intended for us. By becoming incarnate, Jesus took His divine nature and "clothed" Himself in humanity, complete with all its limitations.

It’s summed up perfectly in these words:
(6) Being in very nature God, he did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage, (7) rather, he made himself "empty," taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness; (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that "Jesus Christ is Lord," to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

While on Earth, Jesus was 100% man. That’s why He felt hunger and exhaustion... He was tempted by the exact same things we face in this world. No one can look at God now and say, "Man, You have no idea what I'm going through!" God knows. He doesn't just know intellectually; He has experienced everything we endure firsthand. The only difference is, He never sinned.

In His human nature (while He "emptied" His divine nature), even His omniscience was limited. He had to rely entirely on God just like any human, and as I mentioned, He lived out the human life God originally designed for us.

That’s why Jesus has every right to say, "Follow me!" He isn't some general standing on a hill watching a battle and barking orders and laws; He’s more like a captain on the front lines, calling those entrusted to him to follow His lead by charging forward first and shouting, "Follow me!"

Because Jesus and God in Jesus are one, He serves as the ultimate source of inspiration and strength. It’s what gives us the guts to live a life that actually pleases God by following Jesus' lead and leaning on the power of the Holy Spirit available to any believer through Him. 😍

By living a perfect human life, Jesus was completely flawless, which meant He could actually die in our place. Think about it—He was the true fulfillment of all those Old Testament animal sacrifices; those were just shadows of the reality that was coming. And the biggest foreshadowing of all was when God told Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son (that's the very first time we see the word "love" mentioned in the Bible). But just as God stopped Abraham from actually killing his son, God fulfilled that picture Himself right there in the region of Moriah by sacrificing His own Son. He laid the sins of the entire world on Him and took the judgment.

Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear...

Now, look, this doesn't mean everyone gets a free pass automatically. This is a gift being offered to humanity—God's grace. It’s up to the individual to reach out and take it by faith. To anyone who feels like they can't handle their own darkness anymore, or is exhausted from trying to earn God's favor and salvation through their own "good works," Jesus says: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)

When someone comes to Jesus, confesses their sins, and turns away from them, they receive forgiveness and undergo a total transformation (being born again). They get a new nature that actually loves God's righteousness. They don't try to live holy lives to *earn* salvation; they live that way because they *already have* salvation and are secure in a new relationship with the Father in God's family, knowing the truth of these words:
(33) Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? No one! (34) Who is the judge? Christ Jesus died, > He rose again, and He is even at the right hand of God—He is literally standing up for us! (35) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Trouble? Anxiety? Persecution? Hunger? Poverty? Death? The sword? (36) As it is written: "For your sake we face death daily; we are considered sheep to be slaughtered." (37) In all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. (38) I am absolutely certain: neither death nor life, nor angels nor authorities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, (39) neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)

Sorry if that went on a bit long; I was really trying to steer this back on topic—focusing on Jesus' sacrifice and what it actually produces...

Hope you don't mind the rant. 😉

Best,
Alex Ramos91

ps: If you want to read about Jesus' divine and human nature, there's a article over on a site that specializes in Jehovah's Witnesses...

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, I never thought you had bad intentions 😉 moreover, I said your questions were fair, but I also told Harold Reyes3 that I wanted to go through these specific texts first before we dive into the whole debate about whether Jesus is God and/or man.

Fine, if you really want me to get straight to the point:

As the Son of God, Jesus has been the Father's Son for all eternity. Before anything was ever created—before the heavens or the earth even existed—God existed in a relationship of eternal love, fellowship, and life between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If that wasn't the case, God couldn't be what the Bible says He is: Love.

Love is God’s core attribute (alongside His holiness). God was love long before He made the universe or humanity. To truly *be* love, He had to have someone to love and someone to receive that love from. Otherwise, God's primary nature would depend on His creation—but God doesn't depend on anything He created. In other words, even if God hadn't created the world or humans, He still would have been love.

We can look at the relationship between the Father and the Son through the lens of a human father and son. A human son shares the same human nature as his father. And just because a son is subordinate to his father because he's the head of the family doesn't make him any less of a human being. Subordination doesn't imply inferiority..

In the exact same way, Jesus (the Son) possesses the same divine nature as His Father, but the fact that He submits to the Father's will doesn't mean He is inferior in His divine essence. 🙂

Furthermore, just as my father is my human ancestor, the Father is Jesus' God.

In the fullness of time, the Father decided to fix the problem of sin and the sinful nature of mankind, so He sent His Son to Earth in human form to live the kind of human life He originally intended for us. By becoming incarnate, Jesus took His divine nature and "clothed" Himself in humanity, complete with all its limitations.

It’s summed up perfectly in these words:
(6) Being in very nature God, he did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage, (7) rather, he made himself "empty," taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness; (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that "Jesus Christ is Lord," to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

While on Earth, Jesus was 100% man. That’s why He felt hunger and exhaustion... He was tempted by the exact same things we face in this world. No one can look at God now and say, "Man, You have no idea what I'm going through!" God knows. He doesn't just know intellectually; He has experienced everything we endure firsthand. The only difference is, He never sinned.

In His human nature (while He "emptied" His divine nature), even His omniscience was limited. He had to rely entirely on God just like any human, and as I mentioned, He lived out the human life God originally designed for us.

That’s why Jesus has every right to say, "Follow me!" He isn't some general standing on a hill watching a battle and barking orders and laws; He’s more like a captain on the front lines, calling those entrusted to him to follow His lead by charging forward first and shouting, "Follow me!"

Because Jesus and God in Jesus are one, He serves as the ultimate source of inspiration and strength. It’s what gives us the guts to live a life that actually pleases God by following Jesus' lead and leaning on the power of the Holy Spirit available to any believer through Him. 😍

By living a perfect human life, Jesus was completely flawless, which meant He could actually die in our place. Think about it—He was the true fulfillment of all those Old Testament animal sacrifices; those were just shadows of the reality that was coming. And the biggest foreshadowing of all was when God told Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son (that's the very first time we see the word "love" mentioned in the Bible). But just as God stopped Abraham from actually killing his son, God fulfilled that picture Himself right there in the region of Moriah by sacrificing His own Son. He laid the sins of the entire world on Him and took the judgment.

Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear...

Now, look, this doesn't mean everyone gets a free pass automatically. This is a gift being offered to humanity—God's grace. It’s up to the individual to reach out and take it by faith. To anyone who feels like they can't handle their own darkness anymore, or is exhausted from trying to earn God's favor and salvation through their own "good works," Jesus says: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)

When someone comes to Jesus, confesses their sins, and turns away from them, they receive forgiveness and undergo a total transformation (being born again). They get a new nature that actually loves God's righteousness. They don't try to live holy lives to *earn* salvation; they live that way because they *already have* salvation and are secure in a new relationship with the Father in God's family, knowing the truth of these words:
(33) Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? No one! (34) Who is the judge? Christ Jesus died, > He rose again, and He is even at the right hand of God—He is literally standing up for us! (35) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Trouble? Anxiety? Persecution? Hunger? Poverty? Death? The sword? (36) As it is written: "For your sake we face death daily; we are considered sheep to be slaughtered." (37) In all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. (38) I am absolutely certain: neither death nor life, nor angels nor authorities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, (39) neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)

Sorry if that went on a bit long; I was really trying to steer this back on topic—focusing on Jesus' sacrifice and what it actually produces...

Hope you don't mind the rant. 😉

Best,
Alex Ramos91

ps: If you want to read about Jesus' divine and human nature, there's a article over on a site that specializes in Jehovah's Witnesses...

So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

Here you go, fellow forum members. This is exactly why Christ died.

Christians physically shielding Muslims during prayer.

Paul Kern12 said:Biblical Christianity doesn't teach the concept of original sin. We haven't inherited sin itself, but rather a sinful nature—a tendency toward it. A small child isn't a sinner; they become a sinner as they grow up. Just as a child isn't held accountable by secular laws until a certain age, perhaps they aren't held accountable by God either. However, they carry the seed of a sinful nature within them—which, I suspect, becomes more apparent as they mature. They begin to rebel against parents, school, authority in general, and eventually, against God. I could elaborate on this further if you're interested.

Anyone who confesses Jesus as their Savior, repents, and relies on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross receives His righteousness. For God has said: "The wages of sin is death." Jesus didn't die for His own sins—since He had none—but for the sins of those who believe in Him (though, unfortunately, I think there are very few true Christians who truly accept Him). I am not referring to "nominal Christians" here. Anyone who accepts Him is born again—born from above, from God. Through this, they become God's children. God no longer views them through the lens of their imperfections, but through His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, God sees them as clean. A true, born-again Christian wouldn't intentionally sin! They wouldn't just do whatever they please, committing murder, theft, or rape. Those "Christians" who behave that way are merely proving that they were never truly born again.
For example: Imagine you, Harold Reyes3, were adopted by the Queen of England and recognized as her son. You are still the same old Harold Reyes—but now, you are a prince. It no longer suits you to get drunk, or act out, or behave crudely... simply because you are a prince. That is, of course, a bit of a caricature, but I am trying to bring the concept closer to what I mean.

We didn't inherit sin itself; we inherited a sinful nature—a built-in tendency toward it. Think about a toddler. A little kid isn't a sinner. They become sinners as they grow up. Just like a child isn't held legally accountable under U.S. law until they reach a certain age, they aren't held accountable before God either. But even then, that seed of a sinful nature is already there, starting to show its face as they mature. That’s when the rebellion kicks in—against parents, school, authority figures, and eventually, against God. I can dive deeper into this if you want!

It’s just one bit of nonsense after another. I totally agree. 🙄That’s completely irrelevant.
So, you're saying Jesus took on our sins—that inherent tendency we all have to mess up—right? But how does that work? Whether someone identifies as Muslim or Christian, people sin regardless. Nobody on this planet is perfect; not me, and certainly not you. So, what exactly is it that you mean when you say Jesus "took" them?

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their Savior, repents, and puts their full faith in His sacrifice on the cross receives His righteousness. It’s just how it works! After all, God said: The price for sin is death. "

Where is the logic in all of this? Seriously! If I locked myself in a room right now and stayed there for my entire life, I’d still end up dead. It doesn't matter if I lived a perfectly clean life or made a thousand mistakes. Everyone dies eventually—whether they were a saint or a sinner. So, if we follow that line of reasoning, why does death even exist for someone who has never committed a single sin? Just look at newborns! They haven't done anything wrong, yet they're part of this cycle. Come on, tell me you don't see how illogical that is!

Let me lay it out for you: the idea that death is the payment for sin? You'll find explanations for that in the Quran. When an unbeliever dies, they go through intense agony. It might not look like much from the outside because they’re paralyzed, but as the soul leaves the body, it’s like pulling wool out of a thorn bush—pure pain. That suffering is the direct result of their sins. Death itself isn't the punishment; hell is. Hell is where the actual sentence for those sins is carried out, not the moment of death.
On the flip side, a believer passes away peacefully. Even if a massive semi-truck were to hit them, it wouldn't matter; their soul slips out of the body as smoothly as water sliding off a surface.

If death were already the price paid for sin, then what's the point of hell? What, is it just for a weekend field trip or a picnic?🙄 Give me a break.

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their Savior, repents, and puts their faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross receives His righteousness.

Where does it actually say that in the Bible? Where does Jesus say, "When I die on the cross, you get my righteousness and I will be your Savior"? It’s nowhere. That whole concept is just something people made up based on their own personal interpretations to suit their needs.

And honestly, what you wrote contradicts the Bible anyway. You called Jesus the Savior, but the Bible says God is the only Savior, not Jesus.

Hannah Nelson4 said:Here you go, fellow forum members. This is exactly why Christ died.

Christians physically shielding Muslims during prayer.

That's not quite right. It’s really just a confirmation of what Allah said in the Quran.

You’re definitely going to find that the biggest headaches for believers are Jews and pagans; and you'll certainly discover that they are... For believers, the closest friends are those who say, "We are Christians."It’s because they have priests and monks among them who refuse to bow down.

Alex Ramos91 said:You’re dodging the question again, 🤦

I asked for your take on the Old Testament prophecies, and all I get back is this endless philosophical rambling...

I am repeating the exact same question from my last post: how else can you interpret these blatant Old Testament prophecies about a Messiah who is destined to suffer and die for the sins of others, if not by seeing them fulfilled through the life and work of Jesus Christ?

Once we actually deal with that, then maybe we can move on to how Jesus could die for someone else's sins. 😉

Look, that first part isn't even about Jesus, and it doesn't even mention his name. Anyone could have just scribbled whatever they wanted to make sure the pieces fit perfectly.

When you try to build a logical argument, things start to feel off. Why would Jesus die for anyone? It doesn't seem to add up. If He died for my sins, but I’m still out here making mistakes, then what was the point? What exactly did He carry on His shoulders if the sins are still happening? Are we talking about imaginary problems?

Second off, Jesus never actually says, "I’m going to die on a cross to carry your sins." That's just people speculating! It’s all "maybe this" or "maybe that," and yet you guys take it as gospel truth.

It’s not just that, either. Seriously, look at how much proof from the Bible I’ve laid out showing that Jesus couldn't have actually died on the cross. Just go back, read through my whole argument again, and then let me know what you think!

Looking for some proof from the Bible and the Quran that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross? Let's dive into it!

God says:

Look at what they’re saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!" But let's get the facts straight—they didn't actually kill him, nor did they crucify him. It was all an illusion. The people who disagreed with him were just stuck in their own doubts; they had no real knowledge of what happened, only wild guesses. There is absolutely no doubt that they didn't kill him.(Quran)

As Muslims, we believe that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross. Instead, we believe God made it so that someone else took his place, and that person was the one crucified. Since I know you guys don't follow the Quran, I'll give you some proof from the Bible to show why Jesus wasn't the one who died.

46 At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a powerful voice: "Eli, Eli, lema sabahtani?" That translates to: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?"

What do you guys make of Jesus sounding so distressed during the crisis? If he already knew he was going to be sacrificed by God, why the struggle? Personally, if I knew for a fact that God had planned my own sacrifice, I wouldn't be crying out, "Why have you forsaken me?" It just doesn't add up to me!

40 When He arrived, He gave them a quick heads-up: "Keep praying so you don't fall into temptation!" Then, He stepped away from the crowd—fast enough that you could have tossed a stone at Him—dropped to His knees, and prayed: "Father! If it’s possible, please take this cup away from me. But not my will, let Yours be done instead!" Right then, an angel appeared from the heavens to give Him strength.(Bible)

It’s clear that Jesus didn't want to face the cross. When he asked, "Take this cup from me," an angel appeared right then to give him strength. To me, that shows God actually heard his plea. Now, you might be wondering, "How can you be so sure his prayer was answered?" Well, just look at this proof from the Bible.

7 During his time here on Earth, he spent his days crying out and pleading with everything he had to the One who held the power to save him from death. And because he was so incredibly devoted, God heard him.Hebrews 5:7

"He could have saved him from death, and because of his devotion, he was heard." This part makes it crystal clear that Jesus' prayer actually worked. It means he didn't die from the crisis. If he had passed away, there wouldn't be any point in saying the prayer was answered!

Does prayer actually work? Let’s look at Luke 11:9-13. It’s basically the ultimate blueprint for getting what you need from God. Think of it like this: if you go to a vending machine and it eats your dollar, you aren't just going to sit there staring at it—you're going to keep pressing those buttons! Or better yet, if you ask a friend for a favor, they’ll usually step up for you. The logic here is simple: Ask, and it'll be given. Seek, and you'll find. Knock, and the door will swing wide open. It’s that direct. Jesus makes a great point about how even imperfect people know how to give good gifts to their kids. If a human parent wouldn't hand their toddler a snake when they asked for a snack, why would we ever doubt that God wants to pour out His goodness on us? He isn't playing games. He's ready to give us the Holy Spirit, which is the greatest gift of all. Just keep showing up. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will you give him a snake?

/ "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find", just more evidence that Jesus' plea for salvation from death was answered perfectly

39 But He answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

/ Look closely at this now. Jonah spent three days and three nights inside the whale, and after that time, Jonah stayed alive—he didn't die. That means Jesus will also stay for that long and remain alive! While Jonah was in the fish, he was alive and didn't die. So, Jesus will stay in the earth and won't die either. Just like Jonah came out of the fish still living, Jesus came out of the earth still living. See how this prophecy about Jesus lines up perfectly?

Check this out

19 That evening, on the first day of the week, while the disciples were locking the doors because they were afraid of the locals, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 When He said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples were overjoyed to see the Lord. 21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

/ You see, Jesus is still alive. He didn't come back as some ghost; He had a physical body. In the Bible, Jesus said 36 "Indeed, we cannot die anymore: we are like angels and are God's children, for we are children of the resurrection." Someone who dies doesn't have a body—they become like angels—but look, Jesus had a body, which means He didn't die

While they were discussing this, Jesus stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 37 They were startled and terrified, thinking they were seeing a spirit. 38 But Jesus said to them, "Why are you afraid? Why do doubts fill your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet! It is I! Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I do." 40 Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet. 41 And while they were still too full of joy to believe and were simply staring in amazement, He said to them, "Do you have anything to eat here?" 42 They gave Him a piece of cooked fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them. 44 Then He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything in Moses' Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled concerning me.(Bible)

/ This text says it all. The disciples think they're seeing a ghost, but Jesus responds, "It is I! Touch me"

If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, his dead body must not remain on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone hanging on a tree is under God's curse.(Bible)

/ If they had actually crucified Jesus, He would have been a false prophet according to this: "If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Americans believe, that He was completely free from sin.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings(Bible)

Jesus says: Come and learn what this means: Mercy is what I desire, not sacrifice(Bible)

/ See, even Jesus wasn't about the sacrifice, yet Christians stubbornly insist that God sacrificed Jesus.

Did you know that Jesus' crucifixion is actually Paul's teaching? And remember, Paul never even saw Jesus in person

8 Speaking of Jesus Christ, who was raised from the dead, from the lineage of David—according to my gospel(Bible)

/ Here is your proof that this is Paul's teaching: "according to my gospel"

13 Then they brought little children to Him so He could place His hands on them and pray. But the disciples rebuked them. 14 Jesus said to them, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!"(Bible)

/ Here is proof against those Christians who argue that everyone is born sinful. Look, Jesus says, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!" That means children are without sin and deserve Paradise if they die in that state.

Did you know that Paul’s teachings don't actually line up with what Jesus taught?

Paul writes:
"Therefore, everyone who believes is justified, regardless of anything they couldn't achieve through the Law of Moses"! (Bible)

Basically, Paul is tossing out the Law of Moses, but look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17: "Don't think I came to get rid of the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest letter or stroke will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So, anyone who breaks even the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be the least in the kingdom of heaven."! (Bible).

So, which do you prioritize? Paul’s doctrine or Jesus’ teaching? Personally, I'm sticking with Jesus.

Now, here's the kicker: why do Christians insist on believing in Jesus being crucified? It's a huge point because the idea is that Jesus carries our sins—sins we inherited from Adam and Eve. But wait, Jesus said children go to heaven because they are without sin. If that's true, it completely contradicts the whole Christian foundation.

Think about it this way: would God really let one of His most beloved creations, Jesus, be killed while nearly naked on a cross just to humiliate Him? No way. God is powerful enough to save Him from His enemies.