Why did Jesus die?

Harold Reyes3 said:Look, that first part isn't even about Jesus, and it doesn't even mention his name. Anyone could have just scribbled whatever they wanted to make sure the pieces fit perfectly.

When you try to build a logical argument, things start to feel off. Why would Jesus die for anyone? It doesn't seem to add up. If He died for my sins, but I’m still out here making mistakes, then what was the point? What exactly did He carry on His shoulders if the sins are still happening? Are we talking about imaginary problems?

Second off, Jesus never actually says, "I’m going to die on a cross to carry your sins." That's just people speculating! It’s all "maybe this" or "maybe that," and yet you guys take it as gospel truth.

It’s not just that, either. Seriously, look at how much proof from the Bible I’ve laid out showing that Jesus couldn't have actually died on the cross. Just go back, read through my whole argument again, and then let me know what you think!

Looking for some proof from the Bible and the Quran that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross? Let's dive into it!

God says:

Look at what they’re saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!" But let's get the facts straight—they didn't actually kill him, nor did they crucify him. It was all an illusion. The people who disagreed with him were just stuck in their own doubts; they had no real knowledge of what happened, only wild guesses. There is absolutely no doubt that they didn't kill him.(Quran)

As Muslims, we believe that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross. Instead, we believe God made it so that someone else took his place, and that person was the one crucified. Since I know you guys don't follow the Quran, I'll give you some proof from the Bible to show why Jesus wasn't the one who died.

46 At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a powerful voice: "Eli, Eli, lema sabahtani?" That translates to: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?"

What do you guys make of Jesus sounding so distressed during the crisis? If he already knew he was going to be sacrificed by God, why the struggle? Personally, if I knew for a fact that God had planned my own sacrifice, I wouldn't be crying out, "Why have you forsaken me?" It just doesn't add up to me!

40 When He arrived, He gave them a quick heads-up: "Keep praying so you don't fall into temptation!" Then, He stepped away from the crowd—fast enough that you could have tossed a stone at Him—dropped to His knees, and prayed: "Father! If it’s possible, please take this cup away from me. But not my will, let Yours be done instead!" Right then, an angel appeared from the heavens to give Him strength.(Bible)

It’s clear that Jesus didn't want to face the cross. When he asked, "Take this cup from me," an angel appeared right then to give him strength. To me, that shows God actually heard his plea. Now, you might be wondering, "How can you be so sure his prayer was answered?" Well, just look at this proof from the Bible.

7 During his time here on Earth, he spent his days crying out and pleading with everything he had to the One who held the power to save him from death. And because he was so incredibly devoted, God heard him.Hebrews 5:7

"He could have saved him from death, and because of his devotion, he was heard." This part makes it crystal clear that Jesus' prayer actually worked. It means he didn't die from the crisis. If he had passed away, there wouldn't be any point in saying the prayer was answered!

Does prayer actually work? Let’s look at Luke 11:9-13. It’s basically the ultimate blueprint for getting what you need from God. Think of it like this: if you go to a vending machine and it eats your dollar, you aren't just going to sit there staring at it—you're going to keep pressing those buttons! Or better yet, if you ask a friend for a favor, they’ll usually step up for you. The logic here is simple: Ask, and it'll be given. Seek, and you'll find. Knock, and the door will swing wide open. It’s that direct. Jesus makes a great point about how even imperfect people know how to give good gifts to their kids. If a human parent wouldn't hand their toddler a snake when they asked for a snack, why would we ever doubt that God wants to pour out His goodness on us? He isn't playing games. He's ready to give us the Holy Spirit, which is the greatest gift of all. Just keep showing up. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will you give him a snake?

/ "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find", just more evidence that Jesus' plea for salvation from death was answered perfectly

39 But He answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

/ Look closely at this now. Jonah spent three days and three nights inside the whale, and after that time, Jonah stayed alive—he didn't die. That means Jesus will also stay for that long and remain alive! While Jonah was in the fish, he was alive and didn't die. So, Jesus will stay in the earth and won't die either. Just like Jonah came out of the fish still living, Jesus came out of the earth still living. See how this prophecy about Jesus lines up perfectly?

Check this out

19 That evening, on the first day of the week, while the disciples were locking the doors because they were afraid of the locals, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 When He said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples were overjoyed to see the Lord. 21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

/ You see, Jesus is still alive. He didn't come back as some ghost; He had a physical body. In the Bible, Jesus said 36 "Indeed, we cannot die anymore: we are like angels and are God's children, for we are children of the resurrection." Someone who dies doesn't have a body—they become like angels—but look, Jesus had a body, which means He didn't die

While they were discussing this, Jesus stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 37 They were startled and terrified, thinking they were seeing a spirit. 38 But Jesus said to them, "Why are you afraid? Why do doubts fill your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet! It is I! Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I do." 40 Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet. 41 And while they were still too full of joy to believe and were simply staring in amazement, He said to them, "Do you have anything to eat here?" 42 They gave Him a piece of cooked fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them. 44 Then He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything in Moses' Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled concerning me.(Bible)

/ This text says it all. The disciples think they're seeing a ghost, but Jesus responds, "It is I! Touch me"

If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, his dead body must not remain on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone hanging on a tree is under God's curse.(Bible)

/ If they had actually crucified Jesus, He would have been a false prophet according to this: "If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Americans believe, that He was completely free from sin.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings(Bible)

Jesus says: Come and learn what this means: Mercy is what I desire, not sacrifice(Bible)

/ See, even Jesus wasn't about the sacrifice, yet Christians stubbornly insist that God sacrificed Jesus.

Did you know that Jesus' crucifixion is actually Paul's teaching? And remember, Paul never even saw Jesus in person

8 Speaking of Jesus Christ, who was raised from the dead, from the lineage of David—according to my gospel(Bible)

/ Here is your proof that this is Paul's teaching: "according to my gospel"

13 Then they brought little children to Him so He could place His hands on them and pray. But the disciples rebuked them. 14 Jesus said to them, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!"(Bible)

/ Here is proof against those Christians who argue that everyone is born sinful. Look, Jesus says, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!" That means children are without sin and deserve Paradise if they die in that state.

Did you know that Paul’s teachings don't actually line up with what Jesus taught?

Paul writes:
"Therefore, everyone who believes is justified, regardless of anything they couldn't achieve through the Law of Moses"! (Bible)

Basically, Paul is tossing out the Law of Moses, but look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17: "Don't think I came to get rid of the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest letter or stroke will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So, anyone who breaks even the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be the least in the kingdom of heaven."! (Bible).

So, which do you prioritize? Paul’s doctrine or Jesus’ teaching? Personally, I'm sticking with Jesus.

Now, here's the kicker: why do Christians insist on believing in Jesus being crucified? It's a huge point because the idea is that Jesus carries our sins—sins we inherited from Adam and Eve. But wait, Jesus said children go to heaven because they are without sin. If that's true, it completely contradicts the whole Christian foundation.

Think about it this way: would God really let one of His most beloved creations, Jesus, be killed while nearly naked on a cross just to humiliate Him? No way. God is powerful enough to save Him from His enemies.

Look, man, when you’re talking about the undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired—I mean, look at the connection between Isaiah and those scrolls we found at Qumran—it's just pure nonsense to sit around debating it. Honestly, most of this chatter is just mindless scribbling that doesn't even deserve a second thought. It's laughable.

Look, my friend, you’re being totally unfair with how you treat the Bible. You just cherry-pick these tiny little details whenever they happen to back up your point, and then you toss everything else aside as garbage because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you’re going to claim the whole thing has been tampered with or rewritten, why are you even citing it in the first place? It makes zero sense. If you insist the text isn't reliable, then you have absolutely no ground to stand on when you quote it. By your own logic, the very verses you're using could be just as "faked" as the ones you're criticizing. Do you even have an ounce of intellectual honesty left to admit that?

Besides, what kind of God are we talking about here? A God who wasn't powerful enough to protect His own written Word? I mean, seriously. Even if you try to argue that it survived through centuries of human scribes—you know, accounting for those little "accidental" copying errors, like those discrepancies with the numbers—is God really not capable of making sure the actual message doesn't get lost? It's a ridiculous question. If He's God, He should be able to preserve the core truth regardless of a few typos.

So, you’re actually sitting there telling me that God is powerless to handle something like this? Seriously? Isn't that basically an insult to God?

Look, my friend, you really need to go back and re-read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Seriously. Those are the exact spots in the Bible where so many of God's enemies have ended up dropping to their knees before Him—the One who created everything and owns it all.

Harold Reyes3 said:Look, that first part isn't even about Jesus, and it doesn't even mention his name. Anyone could have just scribbled whatever they wanted to make sure the pieces fit perfectly.

When you try to build a logical argument, things start to feel off. Why would Jesus die for anyone? It doesn't seem to add up. If He died for my sins, but I’m still out here making mistakes, then what was the point? What exactly did He carry on His shoulders if the sins are still happening? Are we talking about imaginary problems?

Second off, Jesus never actually says, "I’m going to die on a cross to carry your sins." That's just people speculating! It’s all "maybe this" or "maybe that," and yet you guys take it as gospel truth.

It’s not just that, either. Seriously, look at how much proof from the Bible I’ve laid out showing that Jesus couldn't have actually died on the cross. Just go back, read through my whole argument again, and then let me know what you think!

Looking for some proof from the Bible and the Quran that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross? Let's dive into it!

God says:

Look at what they’re saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!" But let's get the facts straight—they didn't actually kill him, nor did they crucify him. It was all an illusion. The people who disagreed with him were just stuck in their own doubts; they had no real knowledge of what happened, only wild guesses. There is absolutely no doubt that they didn't kill him.(Quran)

As Muslims, we believe that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross. Instead, we believe God made it so that someone else took his place, and that person was the one crucified. Since I know you guys don't follow the Quran, I'll give you some proof from the Bible to show why Jesus wasn't the one who died.

46 At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a powerful voice: "Eli, Eli, lema sabahtani?" That translates to: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?"

What do you guys make of Jesus sounding so distressed during the crisis? If he already knew he was going to be sacrificed by God, why the struggle? Personally, if I knew for a fact that God had planned my own sacrifice, I wouldn't be crying out, "Why have you forsaken me?" It just doesn't add up to me!

40 When He arrived, He gave them a quick heads-up: "Keep praying so you don't fall into temptation!" Then, He stepped away from the crowd—fast enough that you could have tossed a stone at Him—dropped to His knees, and prayed: "Father! If it’s possible, please take this cup away from me. But not my will, let Yours be done instead!" Right then, an angel appeared from the heavens to give Him strength.(Bible)

It’s clear that Jesus didn't want to face the cross. When he asked, "Take this cup from me," an angel appeared right then to give him strength. To me, that shows God actually heard his plea. Now, you might be wondering, "How can you be so sure his prayer was answered?" Well, just look at this proof from the Bible.

7 During his time here on Earth, he spent his days crying out and pleading with everything he had to the One who held the power to save him from death. And because he was so incredibly devoted, God heard him.Hebrews 5:7

"He could have saved him from death, and because of his devotion, he was heard." This part makes it crystal clear that Jesus' prayer actually worked. It means he didn't die from the crisis. If he had passed away, there wouldn't be any point in saying the prayer was answered!

Does prayer actually work? Let’s look at Luke 11:9-13. It’s basically the ultimate blueprint for getting what you need from God. Think of it like this: if you go to a vending machine and it eats your dollar, you aren't just going to sit there staring at it—you're going to keep pressing those buttons! Or better yet, if you ask a friend for a favor, they’ll usually step up for you. The logic here is simple: Ask, and it'll be given. Seek, and you'll find. Knock, and the door will swing wide open. It’s that direct. Jesus makes a great point about how even imperfect people know how to give good gifts to their kids. If a human parent wouldn't hand their toddler a snake when they asked for a snack, why would we ever doubt that God wants to pour out His goodness on us? He isn't playing games. He's ready to give us the Holy Spirit, which is the greatest gift of all. Just keep showing up. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will you give him a snake?

/ "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find", just more evidence that Jesus' plea for salvation from death was answered perfectly

39 But He answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

/ Look closely at this now. Jonah spent three days and three nights inside the whale, and after that time, Jonah stayed alive—he didn't die. That means Jesus will also stay for that long and remain alive! While Jonah was in the fish, he was alive and didn't die. So, Jesus will stay in the earth and won't die either. Just like Jonah came out of the fish still living, Jesus came out of the earth still living. See how this prophecy about Jesus lines up perfectly?

Check this out

19 That evening, on the first day of the week, while the disciples were locking the doors because they were afraid of the locals, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 When He said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples were overjoyed to see the Lord. 21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

/ You see, Jesus is still alive. He didn't come back as some ghost; He had a physical body. In the Bible, Jesus said 36 "Indeed, we cannot die anymore: we are like angels and are God's children, for we are children of the resurrection." Someone who dies doesn't have a body—they become like angels—but look, Jesus had a body, which means He didn't die

While they were discussing this, Jesus stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 37 They were startled and terrified, thinking they were seeing a spirit. 38 But Jesus said to them, "Why are you afraid? Why do doubts fill your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet! It is I! Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I do." 40 Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet. 41 And while they were still too full of joy to believe and were simply staring in amazement, He said to them, "Do you have anything to eat here?" 42 They gave Him a piece of cooked fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them. 44 Then He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything in Moses' Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled concerning me.(Bible)

/ This text says it all. The disciples think they're seeing a ghost, but Jesus responds, "It is I! Touch me"

If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, his dead body must not remain on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone hanging on a tree is under God's curse.(Bible)

/ If they had actually crucified Jesus, He would have been a false prophet according to this: "If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Americans believe, that He was completely free from sin.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings(Bible)

Jesus says: Come and learn what this means: Mercy is what I desire, not sacrifice(Bible)

/ See, even Jesus wasn't about the sacrifice, yet Christians stubbornly insist that God sacrificed Jesus.

Did you know that Jesus' crucifixion is actually Paul's teaching? And remember, Paul never even saw Jesus in person

8 Speaking of Jesus Christ, who was raised from the dead, from the lineage of David—according to my gospel(Bible)

/ Here is your proof that this is Paul's teaching: "according to my gospel"

13 Then they brought little children to Him so He could place His hands on them and pray. But the disciples rebuked them. 14 Jesus said to them, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!"(Bible)

/ Here is proof against those Christians who argue that everyone is born sinful. Look, Jesus says, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!" That means children are without sin and deserve Paradise if they die in that state.

Did you know that Paul’s teachings don't actually line up with what Jesus taught?

Paul writes:
"Therefore, everyone who believes is justified, regardless of anything they couldn't achieve through the Law of Moses"! (Bible)

Basically, Paul is tossing out the Law of Moses, but look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17: "Don't think I came to get rid of the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest letter or stroke will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So, anyone who breaks even the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be the least in the kingdom of heaven."! (Bible).

So, which do you prioritize? Paul’s doctrine or Jesus’ teaching? Personally, I'm sticking with Jesus.

Now, here's the kicker: why do Christians insist on believing in Jesus being crucified? It's a huge point because the idea is that Jesus carries our sins—sins we inherited from Adam and Eve. But wait, Jesus said children go to heaven because they are without sin. If that's true, it completely contradicts the whole Christian foundation.

Think about it this way: would God really let one of His most beloved creations, Jesus, be killed while nearly naked on a cross just to humiliate Him? No way. God is powerful enough to save Him from His enemies.

Let me ask you something first.
What exactly is your problem with my sin? Seriously, what are you even getting at here?
What exactly gives God the right to just hand out forgiveness like it’s nothing? On what basis can He even do that?

Harold Reyes3 Asks:
Look, here’s another thing: nowhere in the actual teachings does Jesus say, "I'm going to die on a cross to carry all your sins." That whole concept isn't even His words—it's just a bunch of people speculating. It's all "maybe this happened" or "maybe that was the reason," and yet you guys just swallow it whole and believe it like it's gospel truth.

I don't even know if there’s any point in me quoting the Bible where Jesus says it himself. 🤷
Look, I’m honestly just worried that if I quote you, you’re gonna jump down my throat again and claim someone else wrote it for me... so, honestly? It’s probably better for both of us if I just don't bother quoting anything.
On that Day, you’re going to have a lot less to answer for when you stand before Jesus.

Look, I'm asking a straight-up question here: what if I walk in and prove, without a single shred of doubt using proof from the Bible, that Jesus actually said he was going to die for other people's sins?

Harold Reyes3 said:Look, that first part isn't even about Jesus, and it doesn't even mention his name. Anyone could have just scribbled whatever they wanted to make sure the pieces fit perfectly.

When you try to build a logical argument, things start to feel off. Why would Jesus die for anyone? It doesn't seem to add up. If He died for my sins, but I’m still out here making mistakes, then what was the point? What exactly did He carry on His shoulders if the sins are still happening? Are we talking about imaginary problems?

Second off, Jesus never actually says, "I’m going to die on a cross to carry your sins." That's just people speculating! It’s all "maybe this" or "maybe that," and yet you guys take it as gospel truth.

It’s not just that, either. Seriously, look at how much proof from the Bible I’ve laid out showing that Jesus couldn't have actually died on the cross. Just go back, read through my whole argument again, and then let me know what you think!

Looking for some proof from the Bible and the Quran that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross? Let's dive into it!

God says:

Look at what they’re saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!" But let's get the facts straight—they didn't actually kill him, nor did they crucify him. It was all an illusion. The people who disagreed with him were just stuck in their own doubts; they had no real knowledge of what happened, only wild guesses. There is absolutely no doubt that they didn't kill him.(Quran)

As Muslims, we believe that Jesus wasn't actually killed on the cross. Instead, we believe God made it so that someone else took his place, and that person was the one crucified. Since I know you guys don't follow the Quran, I'll give you some proof from the Bible to show why Jesus wasn't the one who died.

46 At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a powerful voice: "Eli, Eli, lema sabahtani?" That translates to: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?"

What do you guys make of Jesus sounding so distressed during the crisis? If he already knew he was going to be sacrificed by God, why the struggle? Personally, if I knew for a fact that God had planned my own sacrifice, I wouldn't be crying out, "Why have you forsaken me?" It just doesn't add up to me!

40 When He arrived, He gave them a quick heads-up: "Keep praying so you don't fall into temptation!" Then, He stepped away from the crowd—fast enough that you could have tossed a stone at Him—dropped to His knees, and prayed: "Father! If it’s possible, please take this cup away from me. But not my will, let Yours be done instead!" Right then, an angel appeared from the heavens to give Him strength.(Bible)

It’s clear that Jesus didn't want to face the cross. When he asked, "Take this cup from me," an angel appeared right then to give him strength. To me, that shows God actually heard his plea. Now, you might be wondering, "How can you be so sure his prayer was answered?" Well, just look at this proof from the Bible.

7 During his time here on Earth, he spent his days crying out and pleading with everything he had to the One who held the power to save him from death. And because he was so incredibly devoted, God heard him.Hebrews 5:7

"He could have saved him from death, and because of his devotion, he was heard." This part makes it crystal clear that Jesus' prayer actually worked. It means he didn't die from the crisis. If he had passed away, there wouldn't be any point in saying the prayer was answered!

Does prayer actually work? Let’s look at Luke 11:9-13. It’s basically the ultimate blueprint for getting what you need from God. Think of it like this: if you go to a vending machine and it eats your dollar, you aren't just going to sit there staring at it—you're going to keep pressing those buttons! Or better yet, if you ask a friend for a favor, they’ll usually step up for you. The logic here is simple: Ask, and it'll be given. Seek, and you'll find. Knock, and the door will swing wide open. It’s that direct. Jesus makes a great point about how even imperfect people know how to give good gifts to their kids. If a human parent wouldn't hand their toddler a snake when they asked for a snack, why would we ever doubt that God wants to pour out His goodness on us? He isn't playing games. He's ready to give us the Holy Spirit, which is the greatest gift of all. Just keep showing up. 7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will you give him a snake?

/ "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find", just more evidence that Jesus' plea for salvation from death was answered perfectly

39 But He answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

/ Look closely at this now. Jonah spent three days and three nights inside the whale, and after that time, Jonah stayed alive—he didn't die. That means Jesus will also stay for that long and remain alive! While Jonah was in the fish, he was alive and didn't die. So, Jesus will stay in the earth and won't die either. Just like Jonah came out of the fish still living, Jesus came out of the earth still living. See how this prophecy about Jesus lines up perfectly?

Check this out

19 That evening, on the first day of the week, while the disciples were locking the doors because they were afraid of the locals, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 When He said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples were overjoyed to see the Lord. 21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

/ You see, Jesus is still alive. He didn't come back as some ghost; He had a physical body. In the Bible, Jesus said 36 "Indeed, we cannot die anymore: we are like angels and are God's children, for we are children of the resurrection." Someone who dies doesn't have a body—they become like angels—but look, Jesus had a body, which means He didn't die

While they were discussing this, Jesus stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 37 They were startled and terrified, thinking they were seeing a spirit. 38 But Jesus said to them, "Why are you afraid? Why do doubts fill your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet! It is I! Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I do." 40 Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet. 41 And while they were still too full of joy to believe and were simply staring in amazement, He said to them, "Do you have anything to eat here?" 42 They gave Him a piece of cooked fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them. 44 Then He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: everything in Moses' Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled concerning me.(Bible)

/ This text says it all. The disciples think they're seeing a ghost, but Jesus responds, "It is I! Touch me"

If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, his dead body must not remain on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone hanging on a tree is under God's curse.(Bible)

/ If they had actually crucified Jesus, He would have been a false prophet according to this: "If anyone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Americans believe, that He was completely free from sin.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings(Bible)

Jesus says: Come and learn what this means: Mercy is what I desire, not sacrifice(Bible)

/ See, even Jesus wasn't about the sacrifice, yet Christians stubbornly insist that God sacrificed Jesus.

Did you know that Jesus' crucifixion is actually Paul's teaching? And remember, Paul never even saw Jesus in person

8 Speaking of Jesus Christ, who was raised from the dead, from the lineage of David—according to my gospel(Bible)

/ Here is your proof that this is Paul's teaching: "according to my gospel"

13 Then they brought little children to Him so He could place His hands on them and pray. But the disciples rebuked them. 14 Jesus said to them, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!"(Bible)

/ Here is proof against those Christians who argue that everyone is born sinful. Look, Jesus says, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these!" That means children are without sin and deserve Paradise if they die in that state.

Did you know that Paul’s teachings don't actually line up with what Jesus taught?

Paul writes:
"Therefore, everyone who believes is justified, regardless of anything they couldn't achieve through the Law of Moses"! (Bible)

Basically, Paul is tossing out the Law of Moses, but look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17: "Don't think I came to get rid of the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest letter or stroke will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So, anyone who breaks even the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be the least in the kingdom of heaven."! (Bible).

So, which do you prioritize? Paul’s doctrine or Jesus’ teaching? Personally, I'm sticking with Jesus.

Now, here's the kicker: why do Christians insist on believing in Jesus being crucified? It's a huge point because the idea is that Jesus carries our sins—sins we inherited from Adam and Eve. But wait, Jesus said children go to heaven because they are without sin. If that's true, it completely contradicts the whole Christian foundation.

Think about it this way: would God really let one of His most beloved creations, Jesus, be killed while nearly naked on a cross just to humiliate Him? No way. God is powerful enough to save Him from His enemies.

This kind of copy-pasting is such a tedious way to have a debate. It’s honestly like tilting at windmills. If I bother to answer, I just know I'll be hit with another ton of copy-pasted junk from some random source five minutes later...
If you aren't actually competent enough to discuss a topic, then go do your own independent research first before showing up here with your "opinions."

Best,
mš

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

You actually called it—you totally predicted what I was getting at earlier regarding God being the very essence of love. Think about it: if God has the power to give and receive love, He couldn't have just existed in total isolation. From the very beginning, there’s been this eternal relationship, this constant flow of love, fellowship, and life shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, we're talking about three distinct persons here—but make no mistake, it’s still just one God.

I know you’re probably going to jump down my throat and claim there are three different gods involved here, but that’s just not what Christians believe. Period. They believe there is only one God, and they stand firmly behind the Jewish Shema—you know, that whole "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one" thing. one".
If you want to actually wrap your head around how Christians believe in one God existing in three distinct persons, it might help to look at how the same word is used for different things. one In the original Hebrew, you see it right there in Genesis 2:23: "That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One. The body.

Look, I’m not trying to sit here and give you some exhaustive, deep-dive lecture on the Trinity right now—honestly, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I mean, who among us actually has the capacity to fully wrap their head around God? It's impossible. But what I *am* trying to get through to you is this simple point: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, yet they are one single God!

Here it is, including the graphics: Check this out: http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

Look, you can flip the script on this if you want. But think about it: He existed from eternity in perfect unity with the Father—surrounded by glory, holiness, and absolute purity. And then? He walked away from all that just to settle here on this fallen, filthy planet among people who hated Him and spat in His face.

Just imagine how you'd actually "cope" if you were ripped out of your comfortable little bubble and tossed straight into the absolute gutter of Kolkata. I’m talking about the kind of place where the stench hits you like a physical wall, where the streets are crawling with scavengers picking through remains while rats feast on the scraps. You’re being swarmed from every single direction by people begging for help, but here’s the kicker: you don't even have your damn credit card on you. You're forced to live in the exact same filth and misery as everyone else, and most of them? They wouldn't care if you were the nicest person on Earth—they'd probably kill you just for the hell of it.

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

He knew. He was saying this stuff when he was just twelve years old, back when he stayed in Jerusalem to debate those legal scholars in the temple. And when Joseph and Mary came looking for him, he told them not to sweat it because he had to be in His Father's house—meaning the temple, which at that time was the House of the Lord.

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

I think I already partially answered that by stating the Son is a distinct person from God the Father.
But this specifically refers to Jesus as a man. As a man, he is exalted (through the resurrection and ascension), and as the greatest of all human sons, he deserves a kingdom and authority over this world and all people. And as the man who loves righteousness and hates wickedness(Hebrews 1:9), he will judge on the day of judgment.

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

As a man, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit; He was conceived through Him. During Jesus' earthly ministry, the Holy Spirit dwelt within Him, so in a sense, the Holy Spirit was among the disciples through Jesus.
Near the end of His earthly life, Jesus promised His disciples that once He went to the Father, He would send a new Advocate who was already among them (the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus). He even said it was better for them that He go to the Father, otherwise, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be able to dwell in His disciples.
For the Holy Spirit to live in people, their sins have to be cleansed, and they need to receive a new heart—which was achieved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
And now, Jesus isn't limited to a single human body; instead, through the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer every single day, He dwells in every individual believer. 😍
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

This right here—I believe it’s literal because that’s exactly how Stephen saw Him before those people killed him:
When they heard this, they were gnashed their teeth at him. (55) But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand (56) and said: "Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand." (57) Then they were filled with rage, they gnashed their teeth at him, and they both rushed upon him. (Acts 7)

But look, the real point isn't just the vision—it's what it signifies. That Jesus is at God's right hand as the Father's Son. It means everything the Father has belongs to Him; He shares in the Father's rule, power, and authority. He is exalted above every other name.

Kenneth Barnes7 said:So, you're saying Jesus took on a human nature while maintaining His divine essence, yet He still spoke to God as a man... Does that mean God incarnated just to have a conversation with Himself? In His human form, was He limited, essentially talking to His own omnipotence?

So, you're saying Jesus lived the perfect life and all that. But look, when people watch from the sidelines, they say, "Well, he was the son of God, so maybe things weren't actually that hard for him," since he already understood the whole point of the Calvary. Or did he not? Did he not know as a man, or did he not know as God? Or are those two things just inseparable?

So you're saying his knowledge was limited. Yet he still knew he was the son of God?

You're quoting this: "He, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. (7) Being found in appearance as a man, (8) he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross. (9) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (11) And every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So, it wasn't about maintaining equality with God, but rather about Him becoming an ordinary man—and that’s exactly why God exalted Him and granted Him a name above all names. How could God exalt Himself? And what does it actually mean that God exalted Him and gave Him this name above every other name?

And one final question: What was the relationship between the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

And finally, regarding that quote: "Who can bring charges against God’s chosen? God justifies! (34) Who is there to condemn? Jesus Christ died, moreover, He rose again; He is even now at God's right hand—He truly intercedes for us!"

"Here God"? I assume we aren't being literal here, but I still have to ask—how exactly does this work for us? Does God possess these two sides within Himself, while Christ's role is to advocate on our behalf? Is it because He understands us better since He lived as a man? Does that mean He knows us better than God does Himself?

I hope this post doesn't drag on too much. Just answer the questions whenever you can—feel free to take them one by one. 🙂

Hey there. 🙂

P.S. If some moderator decides to swoop in and claim this is off topic—and therefore doesn't belong here—feel free to move us or just start a new thread. I'll be waiting for the notification. 🙂 Thanks. 🙂

I have to admit, I actually enjoy responding to you. You just carry a different spirit than most of the other Muslims on here.🙂

I really hope you read this entire thing and actually take it to heart. I'm sure you still have questions, so just keep writing, and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm able.

Best regards,
mš

ps: If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your take on those passages from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 regarding the Messiah's suffering at some point.

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, man, when you’re talking about the undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired—I mean, look at the connection between Isaiah and those scrolls we found at Qumran—it's just pure nonsense to sit around debating it. Honestly, most of this chatter is just mindless scribbling that doesn't even deserve a second thought. It's laughable.

Look, my friend, you’re being totally unfair with how you treat the Bible. You just cherry-pick these tiny little details whenever they happen to back up your point, and then you toss everything else aside as garbage because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you’re going to claim the whole thing has been tampered with or rewritten, why are you even citing it in the first place? It makes zero sense. If you insist the text isn't reliable, then you have absolutely no ground to stand on when you quote it. By your own logic, the very verses you're using could be just as "faked" as the ones you're criticizing. Do you even have an ounce of intellectual honesty left to admit that?

Besides, what kind of God are we talking about here? A God who wasn't powerful enough to protect His own written Word? I mean, seriously. Even if you try to argue that it survived through centuries of human scribes—you know, accounting for those little "accidental" copying errors, like those discrepancies with the numbers—is God really not capable of making sure the actual message doesn't get lost? It's a ridiculous question. If He's God, He should be able to preserve the core truth regardless of a few typos.

So, you’re actually sitting there telling me that God is powerless to handle something like this? Seriously? Isn't that basically an insult to God?

Look, my friend, you really need to go back and re-read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Seriously. Those are the exact spots in the Bible where so many of God's enemies have ended up dropping to their knees before Him—the One who created everything and owns it all.

Let me ask you something first.
What exactly is your problem with my sin? Seriously, what are you even getting at here?
What exactly gives God the right to just hand out forgiveness like it’s nothing? On what basis can He even do that?

Harold Reyes3 Asks:
Look, here’s another thing: nowhere in the actual teachings does Jesus say, "I'm going to die on a cross to carry all your sins." That whole concept isn't even His words—it's just a bunch of people speculating. It's all "maybe this happened" or "maybe that was the reason," and yet you guys just swallow it whole and believe it like it's gospel truth.

I don't even know if there’s any point in me quoting the Bible where Jesus says it himself. 🤷
Look, I’m honestly just worried that if I quote you, you’re gonna jump down my throat again and claim someone else wrote it for me... so, honestly? It’s probably better for both of us if I just don't bother quoting anything.
On that Day, you’re going to have a lot less to answer for when you stand before Jesus.

Look, I'm asking a straight-up question here: what if I walk in and prove, without a single shred of doubt using proof from the Bible, that Jesus actually said he was going to die for other people's sins?

This kind of copy-pasting is such a tedious way to have a debate. It’s honestly like tilting at windmills. If I bother to answer, I just know I'll be hit with another ton of copy-pasted junk from some random source five minutes later...
If you aren't actually competent enough to discuss a topic, then go do your own independent research first before showing up here with your "opinions."

Best,
mš

Here is why God changed the revelations.

And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a guardian over it. So judge them by what God has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from the truth that has come to you. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation, but He tests you in what He has given you so that you may aspire to good. And to God is your return, and He will inform you about that over which you used to differ. (5:48)

It’s a test, Alex Ramos91, a test!!!
It is stated clearly that God allowed previous Revelations to be distorted as a way to test us. After all, what good is free will if we can't choose between good and evil? There has to be a test from God so we can earn our righteousness or our sins!

Jose Young4 said:Here is why God changed the revelations.

And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a guardian over it. So judge them by what God has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from the truth that has come to you. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation, but He tests you in what He has given you so that you may aspire to good. And to God is your return, and He will inform you about that over which you used to differ. (5:48)

It’s a test, Alex Ramos91, a test!!!
It is stated clearly that God allowed previous Revelations to be distorted as a way to test us. After all, what good is free will if we can't choose between good and evil? There has to be a test from God so we can earn our righteousness or our sins!

Distorting the Bible is definitely a massive test—just like how the revelations of the satanic hierarchy, such as the Quran, serve as tests. But all that nonsense is in the past; serious people don't waste their time arguing over those smoke screens. The biggest deceptions and traps are still ahead for this current generation, right before this world's satanic system finally collapses.

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, man, when you’re talking about the undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired—I mean, look at the connection between Isaiah and those scrolls we found at Qumran—it's just pure nonsense to sit around debating it. Honestly, most of this chatter is just mindless scribbling that doesn't even deserve a second thought. It's laughable.

Look, my friend, you’re being totally unfair with how you treat the Bible. You just cherry-pick these tiny little details whenever they happen to back up your point, and then you toss everything else aside as garbage because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you’re going to claim the whole thing has been tampered with or rewritten, why are you even citing it in the first place? It makes zero sense. If you insist the text isn't reliable, then you have absolutely no ground to stand on when you quote it. By your own logic, the very verses you're using could be just as "faked" as the ones you're criticizing. Do you even have an ounce of intellectual honesty left to admit that?

Besides, what kind of God are we talking about here? A God who wasn't powerful enough to protect His own written Word? I mean, seriously. Even if you try to argue that it survived through centuries of human scribes—you know, accounting for those little "accidental" copying errors, like those discrepancies with the numbers—is God really not capable of making sure the actual message doesn't get lost? It's a ridiculous question. If He's God, He should be able to preserve the core truth regardless of a few typos.

So, you’re actually sitting there telling me that God is powerless to handle something like this? Seriously? Isn't that basically an insult to God?

Look, my friend, you really need to go back and re-read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Seriously. Those are the exact spots in the Bible where so many of God's enemies have ended up dropping to their knees before Him—the One who created everything and owns it all.

Let me ask you something first.
What exactly is your problem with my sin? Seriously, what are you even getting at here?
What exactly gives God the right to just hand out forgiveness like it’s nothing? On what basis can He even do that?

Harold Reyes3 Asks:
Look, here’s another thing: nowhere in the actual teachings does Jesus say, "I'm going to die on a cross to carry all your sins." That whole concept isn't even His words—it's just a bunch of people speculating. It's all "maybe this happened" or "maybe that was the reason," and yet you guys just swallow it whole and believe it like it's gospel truth.

I don't even know if there’s any point in me quoting the Bible where Jesus says it himself. 🤷
Look, I’m honestly just worried that if I quote you, you’re gonna jump down my throat again and claim someone else wrote it for me... so, honestly? It’s probably better for both of us if I just don't bother quoting anything.
On that Day, you’re going to have a lot less to answer for when you stand before Jesus.

Look, I'm asking a straight-up question here: what if I walk in and prove, without a single shred of doubt using proof from the Bible, that Jesus actually said he was going to die for other people's sins?

This kind of copy-pasting is such a tedious way to have a debate. It’s honestly like tilting at windmills. If I bother to answer, I just know I'll be hit with another ton of copy-pasted junk from some random source five minutes later...
If you aren't actually competent enough to discuss a topic, then go do your own independent research first before showing up here with your "opinions."

Best,
mš

Look, man, when you’re talking about the undeniable proof that the Bible is divinely inspired—take the connection between Isaiah and those scrolls found at Qumran—you're looking at evidence so massive it makes all this other nitpicking look absolutely ridiculous in a single sentence!

If this is truly divine inspiration, then why on earth are there so many contradictions in the Bible? One verse says one thing, and then the very next one completely contradicts it!

Claiming the text has been altered doesn't mean much if you can't point to a single shred of evidence. If you're going to make that argument, you have to back it up. Otherwise, it’s just as easy to claim the very parts you're citing were changed too! Do you actually have the intellectual honesty to address that flaw in your logic?

If one verse says one thing and another says something else, how are we supposed to know which part of Jesus is the truth? It’s simple: we have the Quran from God to clear everything up. Think of it like a master key. If a Bible verse aligns perfectly with the Quran, then we know it's accurate. But if a verse contradicts the Quran, then that verse has been distorted. Without a solid point of reference, you're just lost in the woods. For us Muslims, the Quran is that ultimate guide.

Besides, what kind of God lacks the power to preserve His own written word? Even if we account for the history of human transcription—maybe a few accidental typos here and there regarding certain numbers—isn't God powerful enough to ensure the core message isn't lost?

Well, Jose Young4 put it perfectly.

"And We have sent down to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the scripture and as a guardian over it. So judge by that which God has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from the truth that has come to you. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation, but He is testing you with what He has given you, so race to do good. To God all will return, and He will inform you about that over which you used to differ". (5:48)

God could have easily preserved the Bible, and then there wouldn't be any need for the Quran. But God said He would protect the Quran from being corrupted, and that's why nothing else is being revealed to us now.

You're basically telling me the whole time that God is incapable of doing such a thing. Isn't that an insult to Him?

Not at all. You just assumed that’s what I said. The Bible was changed because that's what God intended, since nothing happens without His will. God isn't weak, and I never claimed He was.

Let me ask you this first.
What about your sin?
On what basis can God forgive you?

My sin can manifest in different ways, either through punishment or forgiveness.

Punishment can happen in this life (illness, poverty, accidents, etc.), at the moment of death, or in the afterlife (hell, the grave, or on the day of judgment).

Or, there is forgiveness from God if I ask for it in prayer. God forgives if you turn to Him with sincere repentance, or if you perform a good deed afterward—like giving money to the poor, for example—which wipes the sin away.

On that Day, you will be less accountable before Jesus.

You won't be accountable to Jesus at all; you'll be accountable to God. It won't be Jesus judging you, it'll be God. Just like God will judge Jesus, Muhammad, and everyone else on the day of judgment.

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, man, when you’re talking about the undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired—I mean, look at the connection between Isaiah and those scrolls we found at Qumran—it's just pure nonsense to sit around debating it. Honestly, most of this chatter is just mindless scribbling that doesn't even deserve a second thought. It's laughable.

Look, my friend, you’re being totally unfair with how you treat the Bible. You just cherry-pick these tiny little details whenever they happen to back up your point, and then you toss everything else aside as garbage because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you’re going to claim the whole thing has been tampered with or rewritten, why are you even citing it in the first place? It makes zero sense. If you insist the text isn't reliable, then you have absolutely no ground to stand on when you quote it. By your own logic, the very verses you're using could be just as "faked" as the ones you're criticizing. Do you even have an ounce of intellectual honesty left to admit that?

Besides, what kind of God are we talking about here? A God who wasn't powerful enough to protect His own written Word? I mean, seriously. Even if you try to argue that it survived through centuries of human scribes—you know, accounting for those little "accidental" copying errors, like those discrepancies with the numbers—is God really not capable of making sure the actual message doesn't get lost? It's a ridiculous question. If He's God, He should be able to preserve the core truth regardless of a few typos.

So, you’re actually sitting there telling me that God is powerless to handle something like this? Seriously? Isn't that basically an insult to God?

Look, my friend, you really need to go back and re-read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Seriously. Those are the exact spots in the Bible where so many of God's enemies have ended up dropping to their knees before Him—the One who created everything and owns it all.

Let me ask you something first.
What exactly is your problem with my sin? Seriously, what are you even getting at here?
What exactly gives God the right to just hand out forgiveness like it’s nothing? On what basis can He even do that?

Harold Reyes3 Asks:
Look, here’s another thing: nowhere in the actual teachings does Jesus say, "I'm going to die on a cross to carry all your sins." That whole concept isn't even His words—it's just a bunch of people speculating. It's all "maybe this happened" or "maybe that was the reason," and yet you guys just swallow it whole and believe it like it's gospel truth.

I don't even know if there’s any point in me quoting the Bible where Jesus says it himself. 🤷
Look, I’m honestly just worried that if I quote you, you’re gonna jump down my throat again and claim someone else wrote it for me... so, honestly? It’s probably better for both of us if I just don't bother quoting anything.
On that Day, you’re going to have a lot less to answer for when you stand before Jesus.

Look, I'm asking a straight-up question here: what if I walk in and prove, without a single shred of doubt using proof from the Bible, that Jesus actually said he was going to die for other people's sins?

This kind of copy-pasting is such a tedious way to have a debate. It’s honestly like tilting at windmills. If I bother to answer, I just know I'll be hit with another ton of copy-pasted junk from some random source five minutes later...
If you aren't actually competent enough to discuss a topic, then go do your own independent research first before showing up here with your "opinions."

Best,
mš

Listen, calling my own writing "boring" is wild. I wrote this stuff myself eight years ago, so I'll copy-paste it whenever I feel like it! 😂😂

Am I not allowed to copy-paste my own work???

Alex Ramos91 said:You actually called it—you totally predicted what I was getting at earlier regarding God being the very essence of love. Think about it: if God has the power to give and receive love, He couldn't have just existed in total isolation. From the very beginning, there’s been this eternal relationship, this constant flow of love, fellowship, and life shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, we're talking about three distinct persons here—but make no mistake, it’s still just one God.

I know you’re probably going to jump down my throat and claim there are three different gods involved here, but that’s just not what Christians believe. Period. They believe there is only one God, and they stand firmly behind the Jewish Shema—you know, that whole "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one" thing. one".
If you want to actually wrap your head around how Christians believe in one God existing in three distinct persons, it might help to look at how the same word is used for different things. one In the original Hebrew, you see it right there in Genesis 2:23: "That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One. The body.

Look, I’m not trying to sit here and give you some exhaustive, deep-dive lecture on the Trinity right now—honestly, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I mean, who among us actually has the capacity to fully wrap their head around God? It's impossible. But what I *am* trying to get through to you is this simple point: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, yet they are one single God!

Here it is, including the graphics: Check this out: http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif

Look, you can flip the script on this if you want. But think about it: He existed from eternity in perfect unity with the Father—surrounded by glory, holiness, and absolute purity. And then? He walked away from all that just to settle here on this fallen, filthy planet among people who hated Him and spat in His face.

Just imagine how you'd actually "cope" if you were ripped out of your comfortable little bubble and tossed straight into the absolute gutter of Kolkata. I’m talking about the kind of place where the stench hits you like a physical wall, where the streets are crawling with scavengers picking through remains while rats feast on the scraps. You’re being swarmed from every single direction by people begging for help, but here’s the kicker: you don't even have your damn credit card on you. You're forced to live in the exact same filth and misery as everyone else, and most of them? They wouldn't care if you were the nicest person on Earth—they'd probably kill you just for the hell of it.

He knew. He was saying this stuff when he was just twelve years old, back when he stayed in Jerusalem to debate those legal scholars in the temple. And when Joseph and Mary came looking for him, he told them not to sweat it because he had to be in His Father's house—meaning the temple, which at that time was the House of the Lord.

I think I already partially answered that by stating the Son is a distinct person from God the Father.
But this specifically refers to Jesus as a man. As a man, he is exalted (through the resurrection and ascension), and as the greatest of all human sons, he deserves a kingdom and authority over this world and all people. And as the man who loves righteousness and hates wickedness(Hebrews 1:9), he will judge on the day of judgment.

As a man, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit; He was conceived through Him. During Jesus' earthly ministry, the Holy Spirit dwelt within Him, so in a sense, the Holy Spirit was among the disciples through Jesus.
Near the end of His earthly life, Jesus promised His disciples that once He went to the Father, He would send a new Advocate who was already among them (the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus). He even said it was better for them that He go to the Father, otherwise, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be able to dwell in His disciples.
For the Holy Spirit to live in people, their sins have to be cleansed, and they need to receive a new heart—which was achieved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
And now, Jesus isn't limited to a single human body; instead, through the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer every single day, He dwells in every individual believer. 😍
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

This right here—I believe it’s literal because that’s exactly how Stephen saw Him before those people killed him:
When they heard this, they were gnashed their teeth at him. (55) But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand (56) and said: "Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand." (57) Then they were filled with rage, they gnashed their teeth at him, and they both rushed upon him. (Acts 7)

But look, the real point isn't just the vision—it's what it signifies. That Jesus is at God's right hand as the Father's Son. It means everything the Father has belongs to Him; He shares in the Father's rule, power, and authority. He is exalted above every other name.

I have to admit, I actually enjoy responding to you. You just carry a different spirit than most of the other Muslims on here.🙂

I really hope you read this entire thing and actually take it to heart. I'm sure you still have questions, so just keep writing, and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm able.

Best regards,
mš

ps: If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your take on those passages from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 regarding the Messiah's suffering at some point.

Hmm... you missed my earlier point about God being the God of love. For God to express and receive love, He couldn't have been alone. From eternity past, there has been a relationship of love, fellowship, and life between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, we are talking about three persons—but still one God.

It's like saying 1+1+1=1 👍 pure logic. 👎

I know you might tell me now that this means there are three gods, but that isn't what Christians believe. They believe God is one and agree with the Jewish Shema—“Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
To make it easier to grasp how Christians believe in one God in three persons, consider this: the exact same word used for one in the original Hebrew is also used in Genesis 2:23, which says: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

I think that statement actually undermines the Trinity and makes Christianity look like a polytheistic religion.

You say a man and woman are one body when they are together, but if you ask anyone how many people are in that union, everyone will say two. It's the same way; any logical person would say three gods in one God is illogical. But they won't say three gods in one God—they'll say it's just one God. It's logic beyond logic. 😁 It'll melt your brain trying to understand this. 🙄

My goal right now isn't to fully explain the Trinity to you (honestly, I couldn't even if I tried—who can fully explain God?) but simply to help you see that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, yet one God!

Beliefs like this do more harm to Christianity than anything else in the world. When I read the testimonies of new Muslims who converted from Christianity, it's often because they couldn't wrap their heads around the Trinity and these other complexities. Honestly, you're doing us a huge favor by overcomplicating things; people are going to keep drifting away because they don't understand, and they'll choose Islam because it feels much more logical than Christianity.

God is one. Jesus is His messenger, not a god or a son, and the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. That’s the bottom line—no need to overthink it with all that Trinity talk or complicated philosophy.

Alex Ramos91 said:You actually called it—you totally predicted what I was getting at earlier regarding God being the very essence of love. Think about it: if God has the power to give and receive love, He couldn't have just existed in total isolation. From the very beginning, there’s been this eternal relationship, this constant flow of love, fellowship, and life shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, we're talking about three distinct persons here—but make no mistake, it’s still just one God.

I know you’re probably going to jump down my throat and claim there are three different gods involved here, but that’s just not what Christians believe. Period. They believe there is only one God, and they stand firmly behind the Jewish Shema—you know, that whole "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one" thing. one".
If you want to actually wrap your head around how Christians believe in one God existing in three distinct persons, it might help to look at how the same word is used for different things. one In the original Hebrew, you see it right there in Genesis 2:23: "That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One. The body.

Look, I’m not trying to sit here and give you some exhaustive, deep-dive lecture on the Trinity right now—honestly, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I mean, who among us actually has the capacity to fully wrap their head around God? It's impossible. But what I *am* trying to get through to you is this simple point: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, yet they are one single God!

Here it is, including the graphics: Check this out: http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif

Look, you can flip the script on this if you want. But think about it: He existed from eternity in perfect unity with the Father—surrounded by glory, holiness, and absolute purity. And then? He walked away from all that just to settle here on this fallen, filthy planet among people who hated Him and spat in His face.

Just imagine how you'd actually "cope" if you were ripped out of your comfortable little bubble and tossed straight into the absolute gutter of Kolkata. I’m talking about the kind of place where the stench hits you like a physical wall, where the streets are crawling with scavengers picking through remains while rats feast on the scraps. You’re being swarmed from every single direction by people begging for help, but here’s the kicker: you don't even have your damn credit card on you. You're forced to live in the exact same filth and misery as everyone else, and most of them? They wouldn't care if you were the nicest person on Earth—they'd probably kill you just for the hell of it.

He knew. He was saying this stuff when he was just twelve years old, back when he stayed in Jerusalem to debate those legal scholars in the temple. And when Joseph and Mary came looking for him, he told them not to sweat it because he had to be in His Father's house—meaning the temple, which at that time was the House of the Lord.

I think I already partially answered that by stating the Son is a distinct person from God the Father.
But this specifically refers to Jesus as a man. As a man, he is exalted (through the resurrection and ascension), and as the greatest of all human sons, he deserves a kingdom and authority over this world and all people. And as the man who loves righteousness and hates wickedness(Hebrews 1:9), he will judge on the day of judgment.

As a man, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit; He was conceived through Him. During Jesus' earthly ministry, the Holy Spirit dwelt within Him, so in a sense, the Holy Spirit was among the disciples through Jesus.
Near the end of His earthly life, Jesus promised His disciples that once He went to the Father, He would send a new Advocate who was already among them (the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus). He even said it was better for them that He go to the Father, otherwise, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be able to dwell in His disciples.
For the Holy Spirit to live in people, their sins have to be cleansed, and they need to receive a new heart—which was achieved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
And now, Jesus isn't limited to a single human body; instead, through the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer every single day, He dwells in every individual believer. 😍
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

This right here—I believe it’s literal because that’s exactly how Stephen saw Him before those people killed him:
When they heard this, they were gnashed their teeth at him. (55) But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand (56) and said: "Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand." (57) Then they were filled with rage, they gnashed their teeth at him, and they both rushed upon him. (Acts 7)

But look, the real point isn't just the vision—it's what it signifies. That Jesus is at God's right hand as the Father's Son. It means everything the Father has belongs to Him; He shares in the Father's rule, power, and authority. He is exalted above every other name.

I have to admit, I actually enjoy responding to you. You just carry a different spirit than most of the other Muslims on here.🙂

I really hope you read this entire thing and actually take it to heart. I'm sure you still have questions, so just keep writing, and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm able.

Best regards,
mš

ps: If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your take on those passages from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 regarding the Messiah's suffering at some point.

First off, just to be clear: I’m not going to paraphrase you. It’s easier if I just copy your words directly here before I respond. If you don't mind. 😁

Right at the start of your post, you claim: "You overlooked my earlier point about God being love itself—that for God to express and receive love, He couldn't have been alone."

Honestly, I didn't skip that part. I could have easily fired back at you, but I didn't want to sound accusatory—not even once. But fine, since you're asking, here’s my response. In that post, you claimed: "A If God is love, then He had to have someone to give that love to—and someone to receive it. If God’s primary attribute were dependent on creation, then He wouldn't be God. He doesn't need us to exist. If God hadn't bothered creating the world and humanity, He still could have been love. Period."

You're being a little unclear; honestly, you're just contradicting yourself. Look at the bolded parts!
Make up your mind. Could love exist if man hadn't created it, or could it not?

You claim God can't be dependent on His creation, yet you contradict yourself in the next breath: "He had to have someone to love and receive love from." 🤷 😕

I didn't respond to that, mostly just to avoid dealing with that tone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, let's keep moving:

You claim Genesis 2:23 and then quote: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." — that’s actually Genesis 2:24, but let's not split hairs. 😁
You could respond like this: They might be "one body" metaphorically, sure, but realistically? They are TWO. It’s just a figure of speech. If you apply that same logic to Jesus and God—well, they might share a unique bond, but again, they are TWO.

Looking at that chart you posted—it basically says the Father isn't the Holy Spirit and isn't Jesus, yet they’re all labeled as God. So, "God" is just a shared title, but they aren't the same entity? That's how the graphic lays it out. My question is: are they one or are they not? Are they one, yet distinct?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look at it from another perspective. He existed eternally in perfect communion with the Father—wrapped in glory, holiness, and purity—only to abandon all that to dwell on this fallen, filthy planet among people who hated him and spat in his face...

So, you’re saying Jesus walked away from that community—abandoned the glory, the holiness, and the purity—essentially separating Himself from the Father? I get what you're getting at regarding how monumental that act of renunciation was, but I have to push back. You can't just split one God into different pieces, not when we're talking about His absolute fullness and perfection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you claim he knew he was the Son of God. But if he's actually God himself, how could his knowledge be limited? Or was that lack of omniscience just the "humanity" part of him?
If that's the case, what exactly was this "divine" element within him? What specific attributes of God did he possess?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You claim: "And since he loves righteousness more than all others and hates wickedness (Hebrews 1:9), he will judge on the day of judgment."

Judge as a man? How can someone judge as a mere man if they lack the attribute of omniscience inherent to a human form?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Furthermore, you say: "Toward the end of his earthly life, Jesus promised his disciples that when he returned to the Father, he would send them a new defender."

Ah, there’s that famous word "defender" again... In the original Greek, as many likely know, it’s "parakletos." On this link, the meaning is explained precisely like this: "summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor"

"called, summoned to someone's side, called to their aid
a) one who prays for another before a judge, a defense attorney, a legal representative, an advocate
b) ONE WHO INTERCEDES FOR ANOTHER, a mediator"

In Islam, the only individual granted the right to intercede on the Day of Judgment is the Prophet. Given that Jesus says this person will come after him, it's clear he isn't talking about himself. In Islamic tradition, many refer to the Prophet as a "shefadzija"—one who intercedes. I don't want to take up too much space by quoting the Quran or the sayings of the Prophet, but that is fundamental Islamic doctrine.

How would you interpret this? As mere deception or something else? To reiterate, in the American standard translations, that word is explicitly rendered as "defender."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, you asked for my thoughts on the passages at the very end. So, let's see. 🙂

Isaiah 53 (link)

First off, there are several things here that simply don't align with Islam. Taking on someone else's guilt, someone else's sins. The Quran explicitly states that everyone will carry their own burden.

It's a bit illogical: God, out of goodness, sacrifices his son only to then resurrect him and raise him to his right hand. If he had truly sacrificed him, he should have just left it at that for the "dramatic effect"... It claims he sacrificed him, yet then brings him back to life... 🤷

And Psalm 22 (link)

It says in verses 23 and 24: "I will proclaim your name to my brothers
and praise you before the whole community:
24 You who fear God, praise him!
All you people of Jacob, sing his praise!
All you people of Israel, revere him!"

Why should they fear "Love"? Why fear Him if He is Love?

Besides, the whole narrative sounds like God calling out rather than a son addressing a father...
"10 You, you drew me from my mother's womb
and made me secure against her breast.
11 From birth, I have been yours;
from my mother's womb, you are my God!"

Apologies for the delay and the length of this post. Best regards.
😉

P.S. I tried using these dashes to separate the sections; hopefully, it's easy enough to follow. 🙂

Alex Ramos91 said:You actually called it—you totally predicted what I was getting at earlier regarding God being the very essence of love. Think about it: if God has the power to give and receive love, He couldn't have just existed in total isolation. From the very beginning, there’s been this eternal relationship, this constant flow of love, fellowship, and life shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, we're talking about three distinct persons here—but make no mistake, it’s still just one God.

I know you’re probably going to jump down my throat and claim there are three different gods involved here, but that’s just not what Christians believe. Period. They believe there is only one God, and they stand firmly behind the Jewish Shema—you know, that whole "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one" thing. one".
If you want to actually wrap your head around how Christians believe in one God existing in three distinct persons, it might help to look at how the same word is used for different things. one In the original Hebrew, you see it right there in Genesis 2:23: "That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." One. The body.

Look, I’m not trying to sit here and give you some exhaustive, deep-dive lecture on the Trinity right now—honestly, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I mean, who among us actually has the capacity to fully wrap their head around God? It's impossible. But what I *am* trying to get through to you is this simple point: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, yet they are one single God!

Here it is, including the graphics: Check this out: http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif

Look, you can flip the script on this if you want. But think about it: He existed from eternity in perfect unity with the Father—surrounded by glory, holiness, and absolute purity. And then? He walked away from all that just to settle here on this fallen, filthy planet among people who hated Him and spat in His face.

Just imagine how you'd actually "cope" if you were ripped out of your comfortable little bubble and tossed straight into the absolute gutter of Kolkata. I’m talking about the kind of place where the stench hits you like a physical wall, where the streets are crawling with scavengers picking through remains while rats feast on the scraps. You’re being swarmed from every single direction by people begging for help, but here’s the kicker: you don't even have your damn credit card on you. You're forced to live in the exact same filth and misery as everyone else, and most of them? They wouldn't care if you were the nicest person on Earth—they'd probably kill you just for the hell of it.

He knew. He was saying this stuff when he was just twelve years old, back when he stayed in Jerusalem to debate those legal scholars in the temple. And when Joseph and Mary came looking for him, he told them not to sweat it because he had to be in His Father's house—meaning the temple, which at that time was the House of the Lord.

I think I already partially answered that by stating the Son is a distinct person from God the Father.
But this specifically refers to Jesus as a man. As a man, he is exalted (through the resurrection and ascension), and as the greatest of all human sons, he deserves a kingdom and authority over this world and all people. And as the man who loves righteousness and hates wickedness(Hebrews 1:9), he will judge on the day of judgment.

As a man, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit; He was conceived through Him. During Jesus' earthly ministry, the Holy Spirit dwelt within Him, so in a sense, the Holy Spirit was among the disciples through Jesus.
Near the end of His earthly life, Jesus promised His disciples that once He went to the Father, He would send a new Advocate who was already among them (the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus). He even said it was better for them that He go to the Father, otherwise, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be able to dwell in His disciples.
For the Holy Spirit to live in people, their sins have to be cleansed, and they need to receive a new heart—which was achieved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
And now, Jesus isn't limited to a single human body; instead, through the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer every single day, He dwells in every individual believer. 😍
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23)

This right here—I believe it’s literal because that’s exactly how Stephen saw Him before those people killed him:
When they heard this, they were gnashed their teeth at him. (55) But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand (56) and said: "Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand." (57) Then they were filled with rage, they gnashed their teeth at him, and they both rushed upon him. (Acts 7)

But look, the real point isn't just the vision—it's what it signifies. That Jesus is at God's right hand as the Father's Son. It means everything the Father has belongs to Him; He shares in the Father's rule, power, and authority. He is exalted above every other name.

I have to admit, I actually enjoy responding to you. You just carry a different spirit than most of the other Muslims on here.🙂

I really hope you read this entire thing and actually take it to heart. I'm sure you still have questions, so just keep writing, and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm able.

Best regards,
mš

ps: If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your take on those passages from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 regarding the Messiah's suffering at some point.

Wait, you're actually using the Shema as proof for the Trinity????
What are you even talking about here?? Is your Hebrew just something you pulled off a random website??
Deuteronomy 6:4
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh ehad

That Hebrew word *Ehad* that you're forcefully pulling out of context actually means: one, unique, single, a single entity/being!!!
And honestly, you made a huge mistake by ignoring the nouns right before the word *ehad*. "YAHWEH EHAD" means Yahweh is single alone—as in, the one and only...
So, there is a real difference in Genesis 2:23 when you actually look at the Hebrew text:
עלכן יעזבאיש אתאביו ואתאמו ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד
alken yazaviš, etaviv ve etimov, vedavak beištov, vehaiu levasar ehad
a man and a woman become one flesh when they have a child....
(sourced from: M.G.P.4444)

Best,

Getting through this whole massive debate is going to take a ton of my time, and unfortunately, I'm spread pretty thin right now. So, let's touch base again around Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest 👋

Alex Ramos91 said:Getting through this whole massive debate is going to take a ton of my time, and unfortunately, I'm spread pretty thin right now. So, let's touch base again around Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest 👋

No worries, we aren't going anywhere. 🙂 Looking forward to more discussion, learning, and getting to know everyone better...

Peace be with you! 🙂

Christ washed away our sins through his own blood, granting us the gift of eternal life

Linda Walker37 said:Christ washed away our sins through his own blood, granting us the gift of eternal life

So what's the catch? Does that mean we can just go wild and commit any sin imaginable?🙄

If I go out and kill someone, am I somehow justified before God? "Who kills a man, goes crazy," right? Chill out! Don't you realize Jesus already washed those sins away?

Besides, people always drone on about Jesus's blood instead of explaining how you actually earn eternal life. Look, Heaven is about God's grace through action. You get there by doing good deeds—being kind to people, helping the poor, looking after orphans and the sick, honoring your parents, being a good neighbor, and staying away from sin. That’s the real path to eternal life in Heaven, not some talk about blood.

Harold Reyes3 said:So what's the catch? Does that mean we can just go wild and commit any sin imaginable?🙄

If I go out and kill someone, am I somehow justified before God? "Who kills a man, goes crazy," right? Chill out! Don't you realize Jesus already washed those sins away?

Besides, people always drone on about Jesus's blood instead of explaining how you actually earn eternal life. Look, Heaven is about God's grace through action. You get there by doing good deeds—being kind to people, helping the poor, looking after orphans and the sick, honoring your parents, being a good neighbor, and staying away from sin. That’s the real path to eternal life in Heaven, not some talk about blood.

I mean, atheists do that too (well, at least a few of them that I’ve run into)....

Even atheists do that (at least a few I know)....

Look, there’s actually a massive distinction here, and let me break it down for you.

When a Muslim does something good, they have to do it solely for God to help others. They shouldn't be doing it just to impress people or to build a reputation as a generous person. They aren't looking for social status or a "good guy" label from the neighbors. That's where the big difference lies.

Now, when an atheist does a good deed, they might genuinely want to help someone without seeking any kind of worldly glory. But since they only care about this life—not the afterlife, not God, and don't believe in a spiritual realm where deeds are rewarded—they won't get anything beyond what happens here on Earth.

Compare that to a believer. A believer performs good deeds strictly in the name of God to please Him. They aren't trying to boost their ego or manipulate how the community perceives them. You know the type: "Look at me giving! Now everyone will think I'm such a saint." If that's the motivation, those deeds are just for show. There's no reward waiting for them on Judgment Day. But if they do it purely for God, seeking His approval rather than public applause or thanks, they earn rewards both in this life and the next.

That’s the fundamental gap between an atheist philanthropist and a believer philanthropist.

God says in the Quran:

20. Whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter—We will increase them in it; and whoever desires the reward of this world—We will give them their share therein, but they will have no enjoyment in the Hereafter.
.

This part applies to the believer philanthropist:
Whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter – We will increase them in it.

They get rewarded in this life AND the next.

And this is for the atheist philanthropist:

but whoever desires the reward of this world—We will give them their share, but they will have no part in the Hereafter.

Harold Reyes3 said:So what's the catch? Does that mean we can just go wild and commit any sin imaginable?🙄

If I go out and kill someone, am I somehow justified before God? "Who kills a man, goes crazy," right? Chill out! Don't you realize Jesus already washed those sins away?

Besides, people always drone on about Jesus's blood instead of explaining how you actually earn eternal life. Look, Heaven is about God's grace through action. You get there by doing good deeds—being kind to people, helping the poor, looking after orphans and the sick, honoring your parents, being a good neighbor, and staying away from sin. That’s the real path to eternal life in Heaven, not some talk about blood.

Sigh.
Jesus Christ, the sinless and eternal Son of God, died to pay our debt.
God demonstrated His entire love for us by having Christ die on the cross, taking upon Himself the punishment we truly deserved.
After three days, He rose from the dead, proving His victory over both sin and death.
According to our faith, we mustturn away from sin and turn toward Christ for salvation.
If we put our trust in Him,believing that His death on the crosspaid for our sins, we will receive forgiveness and the promise of life in heaven—eternal life.
Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Only trusting in Christ can save us from sin.
Draw your own conclusions based on what you want to believe.🤷
I wrote this based on my own faith.

It’s easy enough to just swallow the whole thing whole—mindlessly parroting whatever you're told without ever bothering to grasp the actual roots of the issue.
If you don't understand the foundation of how things work, you're essentially wasting your time.
Truly understanding the mechanics of life is what frees a person from being sluggish or hiding behind a thick, defensive shell of ignorance...
Does such a person even exist???
I haven't met a single soul who is truly light, unburdened, and genuinely open-minded....

Harold Reyes3 said:

Even atheists do that (at least a few I know)....

Look, there’s actually a massive distinction here, and let me break it down for you.

When a Muslim does something good, they have to do it solely for God to help others. They shouldn't be doing it just to impress people or to build a reputation as a generous person. They aren't looking for social status or a "good guy" label from the neighbors. That's where the big difference lies.

Now, when an atheist does a good deed, they might genuinely want to help someone without seeking any kind of worldly glory. But since they only care about this life—not the afterlife, not God, and don't believe in a spiritual realm where deeds are rewarded—they won't get anything beyond what happens here on Earth.

Compare that to a believer. A believer performs good deeds strictly in the name of God to please Him. They aren't trying to boost their ego or manipulate how the community perceives them. You know the type: "Look at me giving! Now everyone will think I'm such a saint." If that's the motivation, those deeds are just for show. There's no reward waiting for them on Judgment Day. But if they do it purely for God, seeking His approval rather than public applause or thanks, they earn rewards both in this life and the next.

That’s the fundamental gap between an atheist philanthropist and a believer philanthropist.

God says in the Quran:

20. Whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter—We will increase them in it; and whoever desires the reward of this world—We will give them their share therein, but they will have no enjoyment in the Hereafter.
.

This part applies to the believer philanthropist:
Whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter – We will increase them in it.

They get rewarded in this life AND the next.

And this is for the atheist philanthropist:

but whoever desires the reward of this world—We will give them their share, but they will have no part in the Hereafter.

Well, okay, that makes sense for a Muslim and the Quran.
Sure, you find all sorts of people out there, but I was talking about the ones I personally know—those who don't do it for the sake of others or just to show off. They truly do it SINCERELY!!! Honestly, even a few of those people (just a couple I know) have a much better character than some of the most devout believers...
Anyway, I won't ramble on, but yeah, there are all kinds of people, and we probably shouldn't throw everyone into the same bucket.

Peace.

Linda Walker37 said:Sigh.
Jesus Christ, the sinless and eternal Son of God, died to pay our debt.
God demonstrated His entire love for us by having Christ die on the cross, taking upon Himself the punishment we truly deserved.
After three days, He rose from the dead, proving His victory over both sin and death.
According to our faith, we mustturn away from sin and turn toward Christ for salvation.
If we put our trust in Him,believing that His death on the crosspaid for our sins, we will receive forgiveness and the promise of life in heaven—eternal life.
Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Only trusting in Christ can save us from sin.
Draw your own conclusions based on what you want to believe.🤷
I wrote this based on my own faith.

Jesus Christ is perfect and eternal. He’s the Son of God, and He died to pay our debt.

What kind of punishment are we talking about? 🙄 What's the charge?

God showed us exactly how much He loves us when Christ died on the cross. It was the ultimate move—He stepped in and took the punishment we actually deserved!

Look at it this way: if you’re just watching from the sidelines while someone you care about gets nailed to a cross—half-naked, covered in blood, and getting beaten to death—that isn't love. There’s zero love in just standing there and letting a close friend suffer like that.

Seriously, what kind of punishment do we actually deserve? I mean, come on, people—what are we even talking about here? Does any of this make sense? Is someone else supposed to suffer on my behalf just because I follow my passions or mess up sometimes? The idea that Jesus takes all those sins upon himself simply because I believe in him and his sacrifice on the cross... give me a break! 🙄

Three days later, Jesus rose from the dead! He showed everyone exactly what it means to triumph over sin and death once and for all.

Easter isn't really about death. Think about it: He never truly died. Jesus said that when someone passes away, their spirit becomes like an angel. Well, He was both flesh and spirit at the same time—just like we are! Because He exists in both realms, death couldn't actually claim Him.

Our faith calls us to step up.Turn away from sin and turn toward Christ for salvation!

The Bible clearly states that God alone is the Savior, not Jesus!

If we put our trust in Him, believing that His death on the cross paid for our sins, we will receive forgiveness and the promised life in heaven—eternal life.
Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Only redemption through Christ can save us from sin.
Draw your own conclusion from that.🤷
I wrote this based on my faith.

Look, honey, take a seat and actually think about what you just typed. 🙄It makes zero sense to say someone dies for us while we keep sinning—especially when we're doing it subconsciously—as if we have a free pass to mess up because Jesus died for us.

This whole argument is totally misleading because it ignores God entirely. It skips the part where you personally seek His forgiveness through prayer, where you truly repent and ask for mercy.

God explains how to receive forgiveness in the Quran:

110. Whoever does an evil deed or sins against himself and then asks God for forgiveness, will find that God is forgiving and merciful.

There’s no such thing as Jesus suffering to take on everyone else's sins; honestly, that would just be unfair to Jesus.

David Booth7 said:Well, okay, that makes sense for a Muslim and the Quran.
Sure, you find all sorts of people out there, but I was talking about the ones I personally know—those who don't do it for the sake of others or just to show off. They truly do it SINCERELY!!! Honestly, even a few of those people (just a couple I know) have a much better character than some of the most devout believers...
Anyway, I won't ramble on, but yeah, there are all kinds of people, and we probably shouldn't throw everyone into the same bucket.

Peace.

Sure, there are all kinds out there, but I’m just talking about the ones I actually know personally. Most others either don't bother or they're just doing it to brag.

Look, it’s simple. God can absolutely reward someone right here on Earth. He can grant them happiness, wealth, good health, or a beautiful family. Maybe it’s a dream home, or maybe He just steps in to steer a disaster away to make up for a selfless act. It's like a cosmic way of balancing the scales in real-time.
When things get truly intense, it’ll be on Judgment Day. That's when the real fear hits—standing face-to-face before the Lord of the Universe. At that point, a different song is going to be sung. Since he lived as an atheist, he already collected his "reward" right here on Earth. But in the afterlife? There’s nothing waiting for him. How can you receive something from a realm you didn't even believe existed? If you don't believe in God, there's really nothing left to hope for. 🙄

To be honest, even a few of them—at least from what I’ve seen—have way better character than some of the most devoted believers out there!

No doubt about it—I believe you!

Look, everyone’s got their own mix of strengths and flaws. It’s just how it works. Some people are blunt, others are soft-spoken—everyone brings something different to the table.

It’s honestly pretty embarrassing when you see religious people acting like jerks. You see atheists out there living better lives and showing more integrity than some "believers," and it just makes you wonder. If faith is supposed to guide your character and how you treat people, but you still act like a total mess, then what exactly are you even reading? It defeats the whole purpose. 🙄