Why did Jesus die?

The Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah. Now, when we say "king," we aren't just talking about some figurehead; we all know that term implies actual political leadership. So, in their eyes, he was the legitimate king of Israel—the kind of ruler specifically chosen by God.

I suppose Christians are just as aware of these facts. They understand the Messiah is meant to be a king, but maybe what they struggle to fully grasp or accept is the whole aspect of politics and the actual governance of the state of Israel.

It really comes down to the fact that the political climate and historical circumstances during the first century forced the Jewish people to start thinking, through the lens of their faith, about how to break free from the Roman government. That’s why those various Messianic movements started popping up back then. I’m referring to all those different figures they looked to as their potential Messiahs. But, fundamentally, there’s God behind the concept of a Messiah. You could have priests pointing someone out as a candidate for a Messianic role, and that person might try to rally the people to revolt against Rome. But let's be real: Rome was a superpower at the time, the absolute strongest nation in the known world with an unbeatable military. Israel was just a small province, and unfortunately, it wasn't located on the outskirts of the empire where it might have had some rebellious neighbors to help out in a war. Instead, Israel sat right in a vital strategic location, with the main highways connecting the empire running straight through the Holy Land. Because of that, many people probably realized right away that fighting such a massive opponent was a losing battle, and Rome certainly wasn't going to let itself lose.

Still, groups like the Zealots did rebel against Rome, mostly because they placed all their trust in their faith and ancient prophecies. They were waiting for the Messiah to arrive and for God to step in and help. Their logic was basically: once the true Messiah sent by God arrives, the Romans will lose the war. In their view, if a Messiah dies, he clearly wasn't the real deal. That’s why I guess Joseph would categorize those other claimants to the Messianic title alongside sorcerers or false prophets—people who tried and failed to lead the nation in a fight against Rome.

Jesus also died on the cross, but unlike the others, his life sparked a global religion. Why did that happen? Why didn't he just end up being another failed Messiah, like Theudus or Judas the Galilean?

It’s honestly pretty hard to answer those questions, especially since we lack such solid historical documentation. I mean, the Bible itself isn't exactly a history textbook. But you could argue that a specific faith began to coalesce around Jesus. Up until the crucifixion, that faith stayed within the framework of Judaism, and Jesus was viewed primarily as the Jewish Messiah.

But after that, things shifted. His followers began believing that Messiah Jesus had been resurrected. From there, the belief in the Second Coming grew. The idea was that he would return on the clouds, seated at the right hand of God, to judge the world and bring justice. At that point, he wouldn't be the king of Israel anymore, but rather the king of God's kingdom in heaven. This was likely the core belief held by Jesus' disciples and the Jerusalem church from the resurrection until the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The real question is whether this is a totally unique religious concept or if we've seen similar patterns before. A king fights for his crown, falls in battle, and then somehow rises from the dead to bring a new sense of hope. But instead of being a historical ruler of the living, he becomes the ruler of the dead?

If you look at the Middle East, you see something similar with Osiris, who continues to reign as the king of the underworld. Even though theology tries to explain it differently, at its heart, it feels like the same pattern.

So, Jesus is the heavenly ruler in God's kingdom. It seems like the deceased go to that place, where Jesus Christ reigns as the Messiah over a realm that is essentially a world of souls—the world of the dead.

Drew Reed6 said:The Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah. Now, when we say "king," we aren't just talking about some figurehead; we all know that term implies actual political leadership. So, in their eyes, he was the legitimate king of Israel—the kind of ruler specifically chosen by God.

I suppose Christians are just as aware of these facts. They understand the Messiah is meant to be a king, but maybe what they struggle to fully grasp or accept is the whole aspect of politics and the actual governance of the state of Israel.

It really comes down to the fact that the political climate and historical circumstances during the first century forced the Jewish people to start thinking, through the lens of their faith, about how to break free from the Roman government. That’s why those various Messianic movements started popping up back then. I’m referring to all those different figures they looked to as their potential Messiahs. But, fundamentally, there’s God behind the concept of a Messiah. You could have priests pointing someone out as a candidate for a Messianic role, and that person might try to rally the people to revolt against Rome. But let's be real: Rome was a superpower at the time, the absolute strongest nation in the known world with an unbeatable military. Israel was just a small province, and unfortunately, it wasn't located on the outskirts of the empire where it might have had some rebellious neighbors to help out in a war. Instead, Israel sat right in a vital strategic location, with the main highways connecting the empire running straight through the Holy Land. Because of that, many people probably realized right away that fighting such a massive opponent was a losing battle, and Rome certainly wasn't going to let itself lose.

Still, groups like the Zealots did rebel against Rome, mostly because they placed all their trust in their faith and ancient prophecies. They were waiting for the Messiah to arrive and for God to step in and help. Their logic was basically: once the true Messiah sent by God arrives, the Romans will lose the war. In their view, if a Messiah dies, he clearly wasn't the real deal. That’s why I guess Joseph would categorize those other claimants to the Messianic title alongside sorcerers or false prophets—people who tried and failed to lead the nation in a fight against Rome.

Jesus also died on the cross, but unlike the others, his life sparked a global religion. Why did that happen? Why didn't he just end up being another failed Messiah, like Theudus or Judas the Galilean?

It’s honestly pretty hard to answer those questions, especially since we lack such solid historical documentation. I mean, the Bible itself isn't exactly a history textbook. But you could argue that a specific faith began to coalesce around Jesus. Up until the crucifixion, that faith stayed within the framework of Judaism, and Jesus was viewed primarily as the Jewish Messiah.

But after that, things shifted. His followers began believing that Messiah Jesus had been resurrected. From there, the belief in the Second Coming grew. The idea was that he would return on the clouds, seated at the right hand of God, to judge the world and bring justice. At that point, he wouldn't be the king of Israel anymore, but rather the king of God's kingdom in heaven. This was likely the core belief held by Jesus' disciples and the Jerusalem church from the resurrection until the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The real question is whether this is a totally unique religious concept or if we've seen similar patterns before. A king fights for his crown, falls in battle, and then somehow rises from the dead to bring a new sense of hope. But instead of being a historical ruler of the living, he becomes the ruler of the dead?

If you look at the Middle East, you see something similar with Osiris, who continues to reign as the king of the underworld. Even though theology tries to explain it differently, at its heart, it feels like the same pattern.

So, Jesus is the heavenly ruler in God's kingdom. It seems like the deceased go to that place, where Jesus Christ reigns as the Messiah over a realm that is essentially a world of souls—the world of the dead.

It all comes down to the fact that He truly rose from the dead. Honestly, if that didn't happen, there’d be no proof of His divinity, and you wouldn't have had all those martyrs willing to die for Him. The resurrection is the ultimate smoking gun. Without it, everyone else just stayed dead, and their followers eventually drifted away.

Mainly because He truly rose from the dead.

They didn't actually kill Jesus on the cross. They crucified Judah instead! God made him look just like Jesus because of his betrayal, so he was the one on the cross crying out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" It makes zero sense for Jesus to say that.
Second, Jesus asked God to save him from death, and his prayer was answered. If his prayer was heard, how could he have died? That's how it's written in the Bible.

Third, when Jesus appeared later, he was physically there with his disciples. But Jesus says those who die become like angels—basically without a physical body. Since he was right there in the flesh with them, how could he have died on the cross??? The logic just isn't there.

Jesus and all of us will experience the resurrection after we die when Judgment Day arrives. At that point, God will reconstruct our bodies and return our souls. We’ll rise from our graves when Judgment Day hits because we’ll be standing before God. Think of death as a change of state. It's like a baby being born—it's a total shift. Or imagine twins in a womb; if one is born first, the other might seem "lost" to that world, but really, they are transitioning to a new existence. That's us moving from death into a new world where we exist as both body and soul.

If it weren't true, He wouldn't have proven He is God, and so many martyrs wouldn't have died for Him. The resurrection is the ultimate proof.

There are so many tangled threads and logical holes in that one little sentence that I'd need a whole day just to untangle them all.

So, the proof that He is God is that He died? A God who dies? 🙄
And you're ignoring everything else that points the other way. Let me ask you something:

"Can you even imagine a God who created the entire universe sitting in diapers while his mom wipes his butt just because he's too weak?" 🙄

I could list a ton of verses from the Bible right here that support your claim that Jesus is God.

Harold Reyes3 said:

Mainly because He truly rose from the dead.

They didn't actually kill Jesus on the cross. They crucified Judah instead! God made him look just like Jesus because of his betrayal, so he was the one on the cross crying out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" It makes zero sense for Jesus to say that.
Second, Jesus asked God to save him from death, and his prayer was answered. If his prayer was heard, how could he have died? That's how it's written in the Bible.

Third, when Jesus appeared later, he was physically there with his disciples. But Jesus says those who die become like angels—basically without a physical body. Since he was right there in the flesh with them, how could he have died on the cross??? The logic just isn't there.

Jesus and all of us will experience the resurrection after we die when Judgment Day arrives. At that point, God will reconstruct our bodies and return our souls. We’ll rise from our graves when Judgment Day hits because we’ll be standing before God. Think of death as a change of state. It's like a baby being born—it's a total shift. Or imagine twins in a womb; if one is born first, the other might seem "lost" to that world, but really, they are transitioning to a new existence. That's us moving from death into a new world where we exist as both body and soul.

If it weren't true, He wouldn't have proven He is God, and so many martyrs wouldn't have died for Him. The resurrection is the ultimate proof.

There are so many tangled threads and logical holes in that one little sentence that I'd need a whole day just to untangle them all.

So, the proof that He is God is that He died? A God who dies? 🙄
And you're ignoring everything else that points the other way. Let me ask you something:

"Can you even imagine a God who created the entire universe sitting in diapers while his mom wipes his butt just because he's too weak?" 🙄

I could list a ton of verses from the Bible right here that support your claim that Jesus is God.

You are really trying to twist things around! It is interesting how you Muslims always try to lecture others about the Bible, twisting it until you're blue in the face in an attempt to make the Bible seem false. The reason neither Muhammad nor his followers understand God's word is because neither he (Muhammad) nor any of you possess the Spirit of God.
You are attempting to apply logic, as if...
And then you garnish everything with lies and half-truths.
Furthermore, the Old Testament, starting from Genesis 3 onwards, and the New Testament both clearly state that Jesus must suffer. This is described in all four Gospels. Failing to see this in the Bible is either a sign of profound spiritual blindness or diabolical unbelief. I suppose you can decide which one applies to you.
You truly have no idea who Jesus is, why he came, or where he is now. All you can do is provoke, and nothing more. You are pitiable, truly.
Cite me a verse from the Bible where it says that Judah died on the cross instead of Jesus. If you can actually manage that, I will convert to Islam immediately.

Stop beating around the bush! It’s funny how you Muslims always try to lecture us about the Bible, twisting things until you're blue in the face just to make it look false.

.

The Bible itself basically calls itself out. Check this out:

Jeremiah 8:8 "They trust in their own wisdom and say, 'We have God's law!' But truly, the deceitful scribes have practiced deceit."

The reason neither Muhammad nor his followers understand God's word is because neither he nor you possess the Holy Spirit.

Oh, we understand it. Believe me, we understand it much better than you think. 👍

So you're trying to use logic, like...
And you're topping it all off with lies and half-truths.

These aren't lies at all—it's pure truth. I can prove everything I've said using the Bible itself. If I were feeding you lies, people would see right through them instantly. Lies never stay hidden for long. 😉

Both the Old Testament, starting from Genesis 3, and the New Testament state that Jesus must suffer.

Actually, they don't say that. They say the exact opposite.

"If someone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, do not leave his body on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." >

If they had actually crucified Jesus, he would be a false prophet according to this: "If someone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree..." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Muslims believe, that he was free from all sin. Based on this text, it would imply Jesus is under God's curse, which is obviously far from the truth.

That is described in all four Gospels. Failing to see that in the Bible is either a sign of massive spiritual blindness or devilish disbelief.

Oh, I see it just fine. I see it very clearly.

Well, you choose which side you fall on.
You clearly have no clue who Jesus is, why he came, or where he is now.

God clearly defined Jesus' purpose: he came to lead the people of Israel back to the right path, to help them shun sin, and to follow him so they could be saved on Judgment Day.

All you guys do is stir the pot. It’s nothing but pure provocation. Honestly, it's just pathetic.

I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I’m just looking at the facts and using logic to dismantle these claims. Honestly, I could use the Bible alone to prove that Jesus never actually died or was crucified on a cross. If you can't see that, well, that’s a whole different conversation. 😉

Show me where in the Bible it says Judah died on the cross instead of Jesus. If you can actually pull that off, I’m converting to Islam right this second!

We need to look at this from every possible angle if we want to clear the air. For us Muslims, the Quran acts like a high-tech scanner or a built-in error detector for the Bible. It’s essentially the direct manual sent by God to correct misconceptions. We're here to give you Christian folks a heads-up: God isn't on board with calling Jesus God or His Son, and the whole Trinity concept just doesn't sit right with Him.

So, how would we actually know if someone else was crucified instead of Jesus?

God says in the Quran:

God says:

Even their own words give it away: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!” It wasn't even about him being killed or nailed to a cross—it was all just a massive misunderstanding!The skeptics were basically just guessing at this point. They didn't have any real facts to lean on—just pure speculation. It’s a certainty, though: they definitely weren't the ones who killed him.The Quran.

This is the absolute key to cracking the problem!


He wasn't even killed or put on a cross! It’s already happened to them..

How did that work out? If we're just looking at the facts without jumping to any other conclusions, you could argue that some other guy ended up on the cross instead because he was a dead ringer for Jesus.

You’re going to get a detailed answer straight from the Gospel you Christians tend to ignore—the Gospel of Barnabas. Let's dive in and see exactly what it says about this situation!

Judah slips into the room ahead of everyone else, right where Jesus was just lifted up. Meanwhile, the disciples are all fast asleep. God worked such wonders that Judah was transformed in both speech and appearance to look just like Jesus. It was so convincing that we actually believed he was Jesus!He woke us up and immediately started asking where the boss was. We were totally blindsided! We just looked at him and said, "Wait, you're the one in charge here! Did you seriously forget about us already?"
A grin spreads across his face as he says, "Are you guys out of your minds? Don't you realize I'm Judas Iscariot!"
While he was still mid-sentence, the soldiers stormed in and grabbed Judah, because honestly, the guy looked just like Jesus.
We heard what Judah was saying, saw that massive crowd of soldiers, and honestly? We bolted like crazy.
So, John wakes up wrapped in linen, breaks free, and bolts! When the guards tried to grab him by those burial cloths, he just ditched them and ran for it. It’s like a movie scene! Honestly, God heard Jesus' prayer and pulled that one man out of the fire. Pure miracle!

.

Here’s a look at that wild mystery surrounding the cross.

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" That's what he cried out.

From the Gospel of Barnabas.

They dragged him up to Calvary—that hill where they typically hang criminals—and crucified him completely naked just to make sure he was as humiliated as possible.
Judah does nothing but shout: ""God, why have you abandoned me?", since a criminal got away while I die an innocent death?
Seriously, I'm telling you, Judas's voice and presence were such a dead ringer for Jesus that his own followers and believers were absolutely convinced he was him....

This Gospel is perfectly consistent. Compare that to the Bible, which is riddled with contradictions. Who are we supposed to trust—a Bible full of errors or the Gospel of Barnabas, which flows without any clashes?

The Bible itself is packed with inconsistencies regarding the crucifixion of Jesus—enough to make anyone second-guess everything.

So, who actually carried the cross? Was it Simon or Jesus himself?

"As they were coming out, they seized a man from Cyrene named Simon and forced him to carry the cross." Matthew 27

versus

"Jesus carried his own cross and went out to the place called Golgotha." John 19

And what about the wine they gave him? What was it mixed with?

"They offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it." Mark 15

versus

"They offered him wine mixed with gall. He tasted it, but he wouldn't drink it."

What time was he crucified?

"At nine in the morning, they crucified him." Matthew 27

versus

"It was around three in the afternoon, during the preparation for the Passover, when he said to the Jews, 'Here is your king!'" John 18

"And they shouted, 'Crucify him! Crucify him!' Pilate asked, 'Shall I crucify your king?'" John 18

Who should we believe? The Bible we have today, which is full of mistakes even concerning the crucifixion, or the Gospel of Barnabas, which doesn't have these issues—especially since the Quran supports the Gospel of Barnabas too.

I think we've finally cleared up exactly how the crucifixion went down.

Paul Kern12 said:You are really trying to twist things around! It is interesting how you Muslims always try to lecture others about the Bible, twisting it until you're blue in the face in an attempt to make the Bible seem false. The reason neither Muhammad nor his followers understand God's word is because neither he (Muhammad) nor any of you possess the Spirit of God.
You are attempting to apply logic, as if...
And then you garnish everything with lies and half-truths.
Furthermore, the Old Testament, starting from Genesis 3 onwards, and the New Testament both clearly state that Jesus must suffer. This is described in all four Gospels. Failing to see this in the Bible is either a sign of profound spiritual blindness or diabolical unbelief. I suppose you can decide which one applies to you.
You truly have no idea who Jesus is, why he came, or where he is now. All you can do is provoke, and nothing more. You are pitiable, truly.
Cite me a verse from the Bible where it says that Judah died on the cross instead of Jesus. If you can actually manage that, I will convert to Islam immediately.

But Harold Reyes3 actually has a point. I mean, Jesus swore by God three separate times that He’d spare Him from the agony of the cross. In the end, He just sort of mumbled, "Thy will be done," leaving it up to God's call.

So, what was God's actual will? Muslims claim God answered the painful cries of His beloved prophet, Jesus. Maybe Christians just read the room wrong. 🤷

Harold Reyes3:
You'll get a detailed answer from the Gospel you Christians don't recognize, the Gospel of Barnabas, so we can see what it says about this case.

Who should we believe—the Bible we have today, which is full of errors even regarding Jesus' crucifixion, or the Gospel of Barnabas, which doesn't have those contradictions? After all, the Quran also supports the Gospel of Barnabas..

You really shouldn't have gone there. It's been explained a thousand times already: that thing is clearly a forgery.

You really shouldn't have gone there. It’s been made clear a thousand times already—this is clearly a forgery.

Look, even if we assume it's a fake, we still have what the Quran says about Jesus to deal with. Whether it's a forgery or not, I look at the Gospel of Barnabas simply as an explanation of what God intended.

They didn't actually kill or crucify him; it only appeared to them.

So, let's say the Gospel of Barnabas is a forgery—which I don't believe, by the way—we could still interpret it this way:

"It only appeared to them." Maybe they killed someone who looked just like him, or maybe God transformed another man to look exactly like Jesus. That's one way to read it!

Harold Reyes3 said:

Stop beating around the bush! It’s funny how you Muslims always try to lecture us about the Bible, twisting things until you're blue in the face just to make it look false.

.

The Bible itself basically calls itself out. Check this out:

Jeremiah 8:8 "They trust in their own wisdom and say, 'We have God's law!' But truly, the deceitful scribes have practiced deceit."

The reason neither Muhammad nor his followers understand God's word is because neither he nor you possess the Holy Spirit.

Oh, we understand it. Believe me, we understand it much better than you think. 👍

So you're trying to use logic, like...
And you're topping it all off with lies and half-truths.

These aren't lies at all—it's pure truth. I can prove everything I've said using the Bible itself. If I were feeding you lies, people would see right through them instantly. Lies never stay hidden for long. 😉

Both the Old Testament, starting from Genesis 3, and the New Testament state that Jesus must suffer.

Actually, they don't say that. They say the exact opposite.

"If someone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree, do not leave his body on the tree overnight; bury him that same day, for anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." >

If they had actually crucified Jesus, he would be a false prophet according to this: "If someone commits a sin deserving death and is hanged on a tree..." We all know Jesus never sinned—that's what we Muslims believe, that he was free from all sin. Based on this text, it would imply Jesus is under God's curse, which is obviously far from the truth.

That is described in all four Gospels. Failing to see that in the Bible is either a sign of massive spiritual blindness or devilish disbelief.

Oh, I see it just fine. I see it very clearly.

Well, you choose which side you fall on.
You clearly have no clue who Jesus is, why he came, or where he is now.

God clearly defined Jesus' purpose: he came to lead the people of Israel back to the right path, to help them shun sin, and to follow him so they could be saved on Judgment Day.

All you guys do is stir the pot. It’s nothing but pure provocation. Honestly, it's just pathetic.

I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I’m just looking at the facts and using logic to dismantle these claims. Honestly, I could use the Bible alone to prove that Jesus never actually died or was crucified on a cross. If you can't see that, well, that’s a whole different conversation. 😉

Show me where in the Bible it says Judah died on the cross instead of Jesus. If you can actually pull that off, I’m converting to Islam right this second!

We need to look at this from every possible angle if we want to clear the air. For us Muslims, the Quran acts like a high-tech scanner or a built-in error detector for the Bible. It’s essentially the direct manual sent by God to correct misconceptions. We're here to give you Christian folks a heads-up: God isn't on board with calling Jesus God or His Son, and the whole Trinity concept just doesn't sit right with Him.

So, how would we actually know if someone else was crucified instead of Jesus?

God says in the Quran:

God says:

Even their own words give it away: “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, God's messenger!” It wasn't even about him being killed or nailed to a cross—it was all just a massive misunderstanding!The skeptics were basically just guessing at this point. They didn't have any real facts to lean on—just pure speculation. It’s a certainty, though: they definitely weren't the ones who killed him.The Quran.

This is the absolute key to cracking the problem!


He wasn't even killed or put on a cross! It’s already happened to them..

How did that work out? If we're just looking at the facts without jumping to any other conclusions, you could argue that some other guy ended up on the cross instead because he was a dead ringer for Jesus.

You’re going to get a detailed answer straight from the Gospel you Christians tend to ignore—the Gospel of Barnabas. Let's dive in and see exactly what it says about this situation!

Judah slips into the room ahead of everyone else, right where Jesus was just lifted up. Meanwhile, the disciples are all fast asleep. God worked such wonders that Judah was transformed in both speech and appearance to look just like Jesus. It was so convincing that we actually believed he was Jesus!He woke us up and immediately started asking where the boss was. We were totally blindsided! We just looked at him and said, "Wait, you're the one in charge here! Did you seriously forget about us already?"
A grin spreads across his face as he says, "Are you guys out of your minds? Don't you realize I'm Judas Iscariot!"
While he was still mid-sentence, the soldiers stormed in and grabbed Judah, because honestly, the guy looked just like Jesus.
We heard what Judah was saying, saw that massive crowd of soldiers, and honestly? We bolted like crazy.
So, John wakes up wrapped in linen, breaks free, and bolts! When the guards tried to grab him by those burial cloths, he just ditched them and ran for it. It’s like a movie scene! Honestly, God heard Jesus' prayer and pulled that one man out of the fire. Pure miracle!

.

Here’s a look at that wild mystery surrounding the cross.

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" That's what he cried out.

From the Gospel of Barnabas.

They dragged him up to Calvary—that hill where they typically hang criminals—and crucified him completely naked just to make sure he was as humiliated as possible.
Judah does nothing but shout: ""God, why have you abandoned me?", since a criminal got away while I die an innocent death?
Seriously, I'm telling you, Judas's voice and presence were such a dead ringer for Jesus that his own followers and believers were absolutely convinced he was him....

This Gospel is perfectly consistent. Compare that to the Bible, which is riddled with contradictions. Who are we supposed to trust—a Bible full of errors or the Gospel of Barnabas, which flows without any clashes?

The Bible itself is packed with inconsistencies regarding the crucifixion of Jesus—enough to make anyone second-guess everything.

So, who actually carried the cross? Was it Simon or Jesus himself?

"As they were coming out, they seized a man from Cyrene named Simon and forced him to carry the cross." Matthew 27

versus

"Jesus carried his own cross and went out to the place called Golgotha." John 19

And what about the wine they gave him? What was it mixed with?

"They offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it." Mark 15

versus

"They offered him wine mixed with gall. He tasted it, but he wouldn't drink it."

What time was he crucified?

"At nine in the morning, they crucified him." Matthew 27

versus

"It was around three in the afternoon, during the preparation for the Passover, when he said to the Jews, 'Here is your king!'" John 18

"And they shouted, 'Crucify him! Crucify him!' Pilate asked, 'Shall I crucify your king?'" John 18

Who should we believe? The Bible we have today, which is full of mistakes even concerning the crucifixion, or the Gospel of Barnabas, which doesn't have these issues—especially since the Quran supports the Gospel of Barnabas too.

I think we've finally cleared up exactly how the crucifixion went down.

The entire eighth chapter of Jeremiah was written as a direct indictment against the priests and those false prophets who existed prior to the Babylonian captivity. These specific verses aren't an attack on the Bible itself—rather, they target the deceptive prophets and the leaders who were leading the people astray. It essentially asks, "How can you possibly claim..."
"We claim to be wise—that we possess the Law of Yahweh!" Honestly, it seems as though a deceptive scribe has twisted that truth into a lie. The wise will find themselves disgraced, terrified, and ultimately caught in their own trap. Look at them—they have utterly disregarded Yahweh's word. And their wisdom? I suppose one has to wonder—what good can it possibly do them now? (Jeremiah 8:8-9)

Yes, you are correct that Jesus never sinned—though one could certainly say the same for a select few others, I suppose—but that is precisely why He came and went to the cross: to take upon Himself the sins of the world. Through His death, He assumed our sinfulness—specifically for those who believe in His sacrifice—and in exchange, He granted us His righteousness. However, to those who lack the Holy Spirit, this whole concept seems like sheer foolishness, which is likely why they try so hard to deny His sacrifice by any means necessary.

Harold Reyes3 said:

You really shouldn't have gone there. It’s been made clear a thousand times already—this is clearly a forgery.

Look, even if we assume it's a fake, we still have what the Quran says about Jesus to deal with. Whether it's a forgery or not, I look at the Gospel of Barnabas simply as an explanation of what God intended.

They didn't actually kill or crucify him; it only appeared to them.

So, let's say the Gospel of Barnabas is a forgery—which I don't believe, by the way—we could still interpret it this way:

"It only appeared to them." Maybe they killed someone who looked just like him, or maybe God transformed another man to look exactly like Jesus. That's one way to read it!

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? It was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!
And don't even get me started on how the Quran is objectively wrong about Christian doctrine. Like, it literally claims the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary 🤷

As for why Jesus had to die on the cross... check the link in my signature. I've got a post there that clears that right up for you.

Cheers,

Alex Ramos91 said:Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? It was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!
And don't even get me started on how the Quran is objectively wrong about Christian doctrine. Like, it literally claims the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary 🤷

As for why Jesus had to die on the cross... check the link in my signature. I've got a post there that clears that right up for you.

Cheers,

You could ask the same thing about Paul. Why should we care about those weird visions he had when he never actually sat down with the living Jesus or even hung out with the "real" apostles? How do we know his writings aren't just some random Greek rambling? 🤷

And let's be real, the Quran is clearly full of errors when it comes to how it portrays Christian doctrine. Like, it tries to define the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... well, it just gets it wrong. Mary

I wonder what the Muslims have to say about this. 🙄

As for why Jesus had to die on a cross, I’ve got a link in my signature for a post that clears things up a bit...

I’ve always found the whole idea of Jesus' brutal sacrifice on the cross a little hard to wrap my head around. You're saying that... Just drank a full glass of God's wrath. May he suffer immensely for every sin committed in the past and the future, torn away from the Trinity. What a shame.

Imagine if King David had committed some massive sin—like orchestrating the murder of a man just to steal his wife—and then Jesus stepped in to take all that divine wrath upon himself through his suffering.
So he just rounded up all those other demons and unleashed God's wrath on every single criminal and monster out there.

It's honestly too absurd and grotesque for me to even bother engaging with. Honestly, it’s just terrible sci-fi. Like, some alien shows up on Earth and starts picking up... Just all the evil, the bad, and the pure malice. Take them right off the face of the earth and toss them into some dark pit. 😂

P.S. And again, when I start getting a little tipsy, there’s definitely "something" to it. It's like God actually drank a whole glass of His own wrath.
Good for him if he actually did that. At least we won't have to deal with those hysterical outbursts of rage like you see in the Old Testament. (Think Dawkins and that comment he made about Yahweh.)

Harold Reyes3 said:

You really shouldn't have gone there. It’s been made clear a thousand times already—this is clearly a forgery.

Look, even if we assume it's a fake, we still have what the Quran says about Jesus to deal with. Whether it's a forgery or not, I look at the Gospel of Barnabas simply as an explanation of what God intended.

They didn't actually kill or crucify him; it only appeared to them.

So, let's say the Gospel of Barnabas is a forgery—which I don't believe, by the way—we could still interpret it this way:

"It only appeared to them." Maybe they killed someone who looked just like him, or maybe God transformed another man to look exactly like Jesus. That's one way to read it!

Look at it this way. Prophets were killed. Christ was killed. That’s Christ showing solidarity with the prophets—I won't even go further there... But they killed what *can* be killed: the body. They couldn't touch his soul, and they never could.

A biblical thinker like the apostle Peter clearly gets it when he says he was "killed" in a sense: "He was indeed killed in the flesh, but in spirit he goes to the dungeon to preach the gospel to the dead from Noah's time..."

Then, through his physical resurrection, Jesus overcomes even that temporary victory of the wicked who tried to take him out physically. That’s the beauty of our view of Jesus' suffering and sacrifice... because we acknowledge both sides. We recognize that he intentionally humbled himself and then intentionally exalted himself through the resurrection. The Quranic version is a temptation and pure madness because it's a lie. The Christian perspective of "it only appeared so" is much more complete, clearer, grander, more philosophical, wiser, and aligned with the truth.

Christianity knows the truth; it's hard for those who took part in betraying Jesus, or those who participated in his torture, or even those who deny Jesus' sacrifice—you deceived by the Quran and its lies.

Anthony Perez9 said:You could ask the same thing about Paul. Why should we care about those weird visions he had when he never actually sat down with the living Jesus or even hung out with the "real" apostles? How do we know his writings aren't just some random Greek rambling? 🤷

And let's be real, the Quran is clearly full of errors when it comes to how it portrays Christian doctrine. Like, it tries to define the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... well, it just gets it wrong. Mary

I wonder what the Muslims have to say about this. 🙄

As for why Jesus had to die on a cross, I’ve got a link in my signature for a post that clears things up a bit...

I’ve always found the whole idea of Jesus' brutal sacrifice on the cross a little hard to wrap my head around. You're saying that... Just drank a full glass of God's wrath. May he suffer immensely for every sin committed in the past and the future, torn away from the Trinity. What a shame.

Imagine if King David had committed some massive sin—like orchestrating the murder of a man just to steal his wife—and then Jesus stepped in to take all that divine wrath upon himself through his suffering.
So he just rounded up all those other demons and unleashed God's wrath on every single criminal and monster out there.

It's honestly too absurd and grotesque for me to even bother engaging with. Honestly, it’s just terrible sci-fi. Like, some alien shows up on Earth and starts picking up... Just all the evil, the bad, and the pure malice. Take them right off the face of the earth and toss them into some dark pit. 😂

P.S. And again, when I start getting a little tipsy, there’s definitely "something" to it. It's like God actually drank a whole glass of His own wrath.
Good for him if he actually did that. At least we won't have to deal with those hysterical outbursts of rage like you see in the Old Testament. (Think Dawkins and that comment he made about Yahweh.)

Look, let’s get one thing straight: Paul wasn't some outsider trying to dodge the "real" apostles. He didn't have anything to hide from them. He laid out the exact gospel he was preaching right to the Twelve, and they actually gave him the green light to take that message straight to the Gentiles. You can find the whole thing written out in the book of Galatians if you actually bother to read it. Plus, if you look at the Book of Acts, it's crystal clear—Paul kept the believers back in Jerusalem fully looped in on everything God was doing through him among the Gentiles, and they were right there celebrating God's work alongside him.

If you want undeniable proof that Paul and the other apostles were all on the exact same page, just look at what Peter wrote. He makes it crystal clear in his second letter—written right toward the end of his life:
"Think of the Lord’s patience as our path to salvation, just like it says. Seriously, you have to look at it that way. Our beloved brother Paul He just wrote whatever wisdom popped into his head that day. Just like that. To all the epistles! Where does it actually say that? Look, there’s stuff in those texts that’s just plain confusing. If you aren't careful, or if you're constantly jumping from one idea to the next without any backbone, it’s incredibly easy to twist those words out of context. I've seen it happen way too often. Just like all the other Letters. You're just asking for trouble. Seriously, you're heading straight for a disaster." (2.Peter's 2:15-16)

Look, Peter actually goes even further than that here—he’s basically putting Paul’s letters right up there in the same category as inspired Scripture (you know, the stuff they were counting as Old Testament at the time).

Anthony Perez9 said:You could ask the same thing about Paul. Why should we care about those weird visions he had when he never actually sat down with the living Jesus or even hung out with the "real" apostles? How do we know his writings aren't just some random Greek rambling? 🤷

And let's be real, the Quran is clearly full of errors when it comes to how it portrays Christian doctrine. Like, it tries to define the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... well, it just gets it wrong. Mary

I wonder what the Muslims have to say about this. 🙄

As for why Jesus had to die on a cross, I’ve got a link in my signature for a post that clears things up a bit...

I’ve always found the whole idea of Jesus' brutal sacrifice on the cross a little hard to wrap my head around. You're saying that... Just drank a full glass of God's wrath. May he suffer immensely for every sin committed in the past and the future, torn away from the Trinity. What a shame.

Imagine if King David had committed some massive sin—like orchestrating the murder of a man just to steal his wife—and then Jesus stepped in to take all that divine wrath upon himself through his suffering.
So he just rounded up all those other demons and unleashed God's wrath on every single criminal and monster out there.

It's honestly too absurd and grotesque for me to even bother engaging with. Honestly, it’s just terrible sci-fi. Like, some alien shows up on Earth and starts picking up... Just all the evil, the bad, and the pure malice. Take them right off the face of the earth and toss them into some dark pit. 😂

P.S. And again, when I start getting a little tipsy, there’s definitely "something" to it. It's like God actually drank a whole glass of His own wrath.
Good for him if he actually did that. At least we won't have to deal with those hysterical outbursts of rage like you see in the Old Testament. (Think Dawkins and that comment he made about Yahweh.)

Look, Paul... 😛 Paul says that talking about the cross—about God's own Messiah dying such a shameful death—is a total stumbling block for the Jews. I mean, how can God’s perfect Anointed One be cursed? And honestly, looking at some of the Muslims in this group, they get just as offended by that message. Then you’ve got the Greeks. To them, the whole thing is just pure madness. With their obsession with philosophy, they basically laid the groundwork for Western civilization and everything we call "modern thought" today, yet even now, they still look at this story and see nothing but nonsense.
For those who actually have faith, talking about the Cross isn't just some religious ritual—it’s God's power in action. Period.

Look, I don't usually go around quoting the Bible in my posts, so bear with me while I get a little long-winded here. I just want you to truly grasp how much the Cross means to believers. Even Paul was fully aware of how scandalous and, frankly, "foolish" it seemed to the world. But that’s exactly the point—it highlights God's wisdom. It’s completely different from how we think; it’s unexpected and totally counterintuitive. If it were up to us, we’d probably just try to outsmart our way out of it.

Look, Christ didn't send me out there just to go around baptizing people—that’s not my job. My mission is to preach the Gospel. And I’m not doing it with some fancy, polished oratorical bullshit just to make sure nobody feels embarrassed by the idea of Christ's cross. Seriously. To the people who are headed straight for destruction, talking about the cross sounds like total madness. But for us? For those of us being saved? It’s the literal power of God. It’s written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the intelligence of the intellectuals." So, where are they now? Where’s all that self-proclaimed "wise" crowd? Where are the scholars and the academic experts trying to deconstruct everything? Hasn't God already made a fool out of the world's supposed brilliance? Honestly, it’s hilarious. When the world fails to know God through its own "intellect," God decides to use the seemingly foolish preaching of the Gospel to save believers. It’s a complete subversion of their logic. I mean, think about it. You have the Jews looking for specific signs and the Greeks chasing after philosophy and cleverness, right? And here we are, just preaching about a crucified Christ. To the Jews, it’s a stumbling block. To the outsiders, it looks insane. But to everyone called to Him—both Jew and Greek—it is the very power and wisdom of God. God’s "foolishness" is infinitely wiser than any human genius, and His weakness is a hell of a lot stronger than any human strength. As it says: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what has never entered the human heart, God has prepared for those who love Him."

Anthony Perez9 said:You could ask the same thing about Paul. Why should we care about those weird visions he had when he never actually sat down with the living Jesus or even hung out with the "real" apostles? How do we know his writings aren't just some random Greek rambling? 🤷

And let's be real, the Quran is clearly full of errors when it comes to how it portrays Christian doctrine. Like, it tries to define the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... well, it just gets it wrong. Mary

I wonder what the Muslims have to say about this. 🙄

As for why Jesus had to die on a cross, I’ve got a link in my signature for a post that clears things up a bit...

I’ve always found the whole idea of Jesus' brutal sacrifice on the cross a little hard to wrap my head around. You're saying that... Just drank a full glass of God's wrath. May he suffer immensely for every sin committed in the past and the future, torn away from the Trinity. What a shame.

Imagine if King David had committed some massive sin—like orchestrating the murder of a man just to steal his wife—and then Jesus stepped in to take all that divine wrath upon himself through his suffering.
So he just rounded up all those other demons and unleashed God's wrath on every single criminal and monster out there.

It's honestly too absurd and grotesque for me to even bother engaging with. Honestly, it’s just terrible sci-fi. Like, some alien shows up on Earth and starts picking up... Just all the evil, the bad, and the pure malice. Take them right off the face of the earth and toss them into some dark pit. 😂

P.S. And again, when I start getting a little tipsy, there’s definitely "something" to it. It's like God actually drank a whole glass of His own wrath.
Good for him if he actually did that. At least we won't have to deal with those hysterical outbursts of rage like you see in the Old Testament. (Think Dawkins and that comment he made about Yahweh.)

God's wrath fell on Jesus, sure, but God's wrath is still hanging over this world today—it just shows up a little differently now. If you look at Romans 1, you see it manifests by God essentially letting people go their own way; He leaves those with hardened hearts who have zero love for the truth to follow their own paths, and eventually, they'll get exactly what they deserve based on those choices.
Yeah, the wrath fell on Jesus, but if we want to be spared from God's wrath ourselves, we have to "hide" under the protection of the cross, meaning we have to accept Jesus' sacrifice, experience personal forgiveness, and start a new relationship with God as a Father rather than a Judge. 🙂

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, let’s get one thing straight: Paul wasn't some outsider trying to dodge the "real" apostles. He didn't have anything to hide from them. He laid out the exact gospel he was preaching right to the Twelve, and they actually gave him the green light to take that message straight to the Gentiles. You can find the whole thing written out in the book of Galatians if you actually bother to read it. Plus, if you look at the Book of Acts, it's crystal clear—Paul kept the believers back in Jerusalem fully looped in on everything God was doing through him among the Gentiles, and they were right there celebrating God's work alongside him.

If you want undeniable proof that Paul and the other apostles were all on the exact same page, just look at what Peter wrote. He makes it crystal clear in his second letter—written right toward the end of his life:
"Think of the Lord’s patience as our path to salvation, just like it says. Seriously, you have to look at it that way. Our beloved brother Paul He just wrote whatever wisdom popped into his head that day. Just like that. To all the epistles! Where does it actually say that? Look, there’s stuff in those texts that’s just plain confusing. If you aren't careful, or if you're constantly jumping from one idea to the next without any backbone, it’s incredibly easy to twist those words out of context. I've seen it happen way too often. Just like all the other Letters. You're just asking for trouble. Seriously, you're heading straight for a disaster." (2.Peter's 2:15-16)

Look, Peter actually goes even further than that here—he’s basically putting Paul’s letters right up there in the same category as inspired Scripture (you know, the stuff they were counting as Old Testament at the time).

Look, Paul... 😛 Paul says that talking about the cross—about God's own Messiah dying such a shameful death—is a total stumbling block for the Jews. I mean, how can God’s perfect Anointed One be cursed? And honestly, looking at some of the Muslims in this group, they get just as offended by that message. Then you’ve got the Greeks. To them, the whole thing is just pure madness. With their obsession with philosophy, they basically laid the groundwork for Western civilization and everything we call "modern thought" today, yet even now, they still look at this story and see nothing but nonsense.
For those who actually have faith, talking about the Cross isn't just some religious ritual—it’s God's power in action. Period.

Look, I don't usually go around quoting the Bible in my posts, so bear with me while I get a little long-winded here. I just want you to truly grasp how much the Cross means to believers. Even Paul was fully aware of how scandalous and, frankly, "foolish" it seemed to the world. But that’s exactly the point—it highlights God's wisdom. It’s completely different from how we think; it’s unexpected and totally counterintuitive. If it were up to us, we’d probably just try to outsmart our way out of it.

Look, Christ didn't send me out there just to go around baptizing people—that’s not my job. My mission is to preach the Gospel. And I’m not doing it with some fancy, polished oratorical bullshit just to make sure nobody feels embarrassed by the idea of Christ's cross. Seriously. To the people who are headed straight for destruction, talking about the cross sounds like total madness. But for us? For those of us being saved? It’s the literal power of God. It’s written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the intelligence of the intellectuals." So, where are they now? Where’s all that self-proclaimed "wise" crowd? Where are the scholars and the academic experts trying to deconstruct everything? Hasn't God already made a fool out of the world's supposed brilliance? Honestly, it’s hilarious. When the world fails to know God through its own "intellect," God decides to use the seemingly foolish preaching of the Gospel to save believers. It’s a complete subversion of their logic. I mean, think about it. You have the Jews looking for specific signs and the Greeks chasing after philosophy and cleverness, right? And here we are, just preaching about a crucified Christ. To the Jews, it’s a stumbling block. To the outsiders, it looks insane. But to everyone called to Him—both Jew and Greek—it is the very power and wisdom of God. God’s "foolishness" is infinitely wiser than any human genius, and His weakness is a hell of a lot stronger than any human strength. As it says: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what has never entered the human heart, God has prepared for those who love Him."

God's wrath fell on Jesus, sure, but God's wrath is still hanging over this world today—it just shows up a little differently now. If you look at Romans 1, you see it manifests by God essentially letting people go their own way; He leaves those with hardened hearts who have zero love for the truth to follow their own paths, and eventually, they'll get exactly what they deserve based on those choices.
Yeah, the wrath fell on Jesus, but if we want to be spared from God's wrath ourselves, we have to "hide" under the protection of the cross, meaning we have to accept Jesus' sacrifice, experience personal forgiveness, and start a new relationship with God as a Father rather than a Judge. 🙂

Hardened hearts and no love for the truth? Wait, so does that mean someone who, say, converted to Islam because they genuinely believed it was the truth—is your God just going to toss them straight into hell?
It really makes you wonder why God allows thousands of different religions and cults to exist in the first place. How is anyone supposed to find the right path? Or is it all already decided—who’s headed for heaven and who’s heading for hell?

Paul Kern12 said:The entire eighth chapter of Jeremiah was written as a direct indictment against the priests and those false prophets who existed prior to the Babylonian captivity. These specific verses aren't an attack on the Bible itself—rather, they target the deceptive prophets and the leaders who were leading the people astray. It essentially asks, "How can you possibly claim..."
"We claim to be wise—that we possess the Law of Yahweh!" Honestly, it seems as though a deceptive scribe has twisted that truth into a lie. The wise will find themselves disgraced, terrified, and ultimately caught in their own trap. Look at them—they have utterly disregarded Yahweh's word. And their wisdom? I suppose one has to wonder—what good can it possibly do them now? (Jeremiah 8:8-9)

Yes, you are correct that Jesus never sinned—though one could certainly say the same for a select few others, I suppose—but that is precisely why He came and went to the cross: to take upon Himself the sins of the world. Through His death, He assumed our sinfulness—specifically for those who believe in His sacrifice—and in exchange, He granted us His righteousness. However, to those who lack the Holy Spirit, this whole concept seems like sheer foolishness, which is likely why they try so hard to deny His sacrifice by any means necessary.

Jeremiah chapter 8 is basically a massive takedown of the priests and fake prophets right before the Babylonian captivity hit. These verses aren't attacking the Bible itself—they’re calling out the charlatans who led the people astray. It’s all about that blatant hypocrisy: "How can you possibly claim..."

You wouldn't believe the stuff I've seen. I’ve spotted hundreds of contradictions where one verse says one thing and the next says the exact opposite about the same situation. It’s glaringly obvious that someone went in and tinkered with the Bible texts. And it isn't just my opinion—God actually tells us in the Quran that the "sons of Israel" messed with the holy books, twisting the words, altering them, and even adding things while claiming they were from God.

That’s exactly why He came and died on the cross—to take the weight of the world's sins upon Himself. Through His death, He stepped in to shoulder our flaws and, in exchange, handed us His own righteousness. It's the ultimate trade!

Even the text you just put together goes against everything written in the Bible!

You’re saying He came to take on all the world's sins, but honestly, that just doesn't add up to me. It feels totally illogical. If He's carrying those sins, then what about this whole "original sin" concept? If you follow Jesus' teachings, He made it clear that children go straight to heaven. So, how can they possibly carry some inherited stain from Adam and Eve? If that's not what you mean, then what exactly are you getting at?
So, let's say I truly believe Jesus died for my sins, right? Does that mean I have a free pass to go wild? If I decide to kill someone in the name of God, rape a woman, snatch a wallet, beat someone up in an alley, or get high out of my mind—and then some guy looks at me like I'm a total lunatic and asks, "What is wrong with you? Are you insane?"—do I just shrug and tell him, "Don't be like that, man. You know Jesus died for our sins"? 😉It doesn't matter what we do right now because He’s going to gather them all up for us anyway!

Just ask your heart if this feels right.

He took our flaws upon Himself through His death—those of us who believe in His sacrifice—and in exchange, He handed us His righteousness!

It’s wild how you all love to turn things into some mystical mystery, complicating everything for no reason.

The only way this makes sense is if He came specifically to grant us His righteousness—to judge based on God's law, defining right from wrong so we can follow it to reach heaven. There's no need for sacrifices or the idea of a half-naked Jesus on a cross. It’s honestly strange how much you enjoy the image of Jesus being humiliated, half-naked and bleeding on a cross just to carry away your sins.

In the Quran, God teaches us that everyone is responsible for their own actions. Jesus has nothing to do with your sins.

Alex Ramos91 said:Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? It was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!
And don't even get me started on how the Quran is objectively wrong about Christian doctrine. Like, it literally claims the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary 🤷

As for why Jesus had to die on the cross... check the link in my signature. I've got a post there that clears that right up for you.

Cheers,

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? I mean, it was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!

Think about it this way: God gave us direct information about Jesus in the Quran, whereas the Bible is essentially a collection of people's accounts. Even Luke admits he was just gathering stories! He spent his time listening to what others had to say and trying to verify their accuracy before writing everything down. When you look at it like that, you have to ask yourself how much truth is actually there when you're relying on human hearsay—especially since those stories were being passed around decades after Jesus ascended.
Everyone’s got an opinion. One person says this, another claims that, and someone else is out there peddling a third version. It’s up to you to sift through the noise and figure out what actually holds water. Honestly, look at how stories work—if I tell a tale today and people start retelling it over the next few decades, half the details are bound to shift. People will inevitably add their own little twists and flavors just to make it sound better. That's just human nature!

Plus, it’s been proven that the Quran actually gets Christian doctrine wrong. For instance, when it describes the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... Mary 🤷

The Quran actually claims that you all believe in multiple gods—whether you realize it or not—and here’s the breakdown.

First off, the Quran states that we aren't a Trinity.

God says:

To all followers of the Book: don't lose your way! Stick to the facts when you talk about Allah. Jesus, the son of Mary, is simply a messenger of Allah—His Word, delivered through Mary, and a spirit from Him. So, keep your faith firm in Allah and His messengers! Don't go around saying, "It's the Trinity!" Stop it—you’ll feel much better! There is only one God, and praise be to Him! Does He really have a son? Everything in the heavens and everything on this American soil belongs to Him. God alone is all we need for protection.

Then you have Catholics who pray to Mary. From the perspective of the Quran, that’s basically giving God a partner. It puts her right up there on His level. Since Mary is deceased and can't actually hear you, calling out to her is like assigning her divine attributes. It’s like acting as if she can hear your prayers while you're sitting alone in your room. By doing that, you're automatically placing her alongside God by attributing divine qualities to a human.

The Quran tells us how God will examine Jesus on Judgment Day:

And when God says: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people..." "Accept me and my mother as two gods alongside Allah.""Praise be to You! It wouldn't be right for me to claim things I have no authority to say. If I spoke out of turn, You already know. You know everything I know, but there’s a massive gap between my knowledge and Yours—You alone hold the keys to everything hidden. I only shared exactly what You commanded: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and their Lord!' While I was walking among them, I looked out for them just as You told me to, but now that You've taken my soul, You are the only one watching over them. You're the one in charge of everything. If You decide to discipline them, they are Your servants; if You choose to forgive, You are the Almighty and the most merciful."

And it doesn't stop there—you guys basically put your priests in God's seat.

God says:

"They take their scholars and monks as lords instead of Allah..." (Quran, 9/31).

Now you might wonder how that works. It's simple! You go to a priest to confess, right? And he tells you, "You're forgiven." But since you're asking for forgiveness from anyone other than God, you're essentially treating that person like God. Only God has the authority to wipe away sins. How can anyone believe a regular mortal can forgive sins? It's wild. I actually saw a movie once where a guy bursts into a church and finds the priest and his wife hooking up under the covers 🙄it happened somewhere down in South America. So, this same priest is supposed to come out and forgive your sins after playing around with someone else's wife under a blanket? 👍That's just top-tier irony right there.

Allah makes it crystal clear.

No one can guide those whom Allah has left in error.

Anthony Perez9 said:You could ask the same thing about Paul. Why should we care about those weird visions he had when he never actually sat down with the living Jesus or even hung out with the "real" apostles? How do we know his writings aren't just some random Greek rambling? 🤷

And let's be real, the Quran is clearly full of errors when it comes to how it portrays Christian doctrine. Like, it tries to define the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... well, it just gets it wrong. Mary

I wonder what the Muslims have to say about this. 🙄

As for why Jesus had to die on a cross, I’ve got a link in my signature for a post that clears things up a bit...

I’ve always found the whole idea of Jesus' brutal sacrifice on the cross a little hard to wrap my head around. You're saying that... Just drank a full glass of God's wrath. May he suffer immensely for every sin committed in the past and the future, torn away from the Trinity. What a shame.

Imagine if King David had committed some massive sin—like orchestrating the murder of a man just to steal his wife—and then Jesus stepped in to take all that divine wrath upon himself through his suffering.
So he just rounded up all those other demons and unleashed God's wrath on every single criminal and monster out there.

It's honestly too absurd and grotesque for me to even bother engaging with. Honestly, it’s just terrible sci-fi. Like, some alien shows up on Earth and starts picking up... Just all the evil, the bad, and the pure malice. Take them right off the face of the earth and toss them into some dark pit. 😂

P.S. And again, when I start getting a little tipsy, there’s definitely "something" to it. It's like God actually drank a whole glass of His own wrath.
Good for him if he actually did that. At least we won't have to deal with those hysterical outbursts of rage like you see in the Old Testament. (Think Dawkins and that comment he made about Yahweh.)

Way to go, Anthony Perez9! It’s like you reached right into my brain and pulled those exact thoughts out onto the screen.👍

Everyone, please read what Anthony Perez9 wrote here. Seriously, take a second to sit with this. Wake up and start thinking a little deeper about these topics.

Alex Ramos91 said:Look, let’s get one thing straight: Paul wasn't some outsider trying to dodge the "real" apostles. He didn't have anything to hide from them. He laid out the exact gospel he was preaching right to the Twelve, and they actually gave him the green light to take that message straight to the Gentiles. You can find the whole thing written out in the book of Galatians if you actually bother to read it. Plus, if you look at the Book of Acts, it's crystal clear—Paul kept the believers back in Jerusalem fully looped in on everything God was doing through him among the Gentiles, and they were right there celebrating God's work alongside him.

If you want undeniable proof that Paul and the other apostles were all on the exact same page, just look at what Peter wrote. He makes it crystal clear in his second letter—written right toward the end of his life:
"Think of the Lord’s patience as our path to salvation, just like it says. Seriously, you have to look at it that way. Our beloved brother Paul He just wrote whatever wisdom popped into his head that day. Just like that. To all the epistles! Where does it actually say that? Look, there’s stuff in those texts that’s just plain confusing. If you aren't careful, or if you're constantly jumping from one idea to the next without any backbone, it’s incredibly easy to twist those words out of context. I've seen it happen way too often. Just like all the other Letters. You're just asking for trouble. Seriously, you're heading straight for a disaster." (2.Peter's 2:15-16)

Look, Peter actually goes even further than that here—he’s basically putting Paul’s letters right up there in the same category as inspired Scripture (you know, the stuff they were counting as Old Testament at the time).

Look, Paul... 😛 Paul says that talking about the cross—about God's own Messiah dying such a shameful death—is a total stumbling block for the Jews. I mean, how can God’s perfect Anointed One be cursed? And honestly, looking at some of the Muslims in this group, they get just as offended by that message. Then you’ve got the Greeks. To them, the whole thing is just pure madness. With their obsession with philosophy, they basically laid the groundwork for Western civilization and everything we call "modern thought" today, yet even now, they still look at this story and see nothing but nonsense.
For those who actually have faith, talking about the Cross isn't just some religious ritual—it’s God's power in action. Period.

Look, I don't usually go around quoting the Bible in my posts, so bear with me while I get a little long-winded here. I just want you to truly grasp how much the Cross means to believers. Even Paul was fully aware of how scandalous and, frankly, "foolish" it seemed to the world. But that’s exactly the point—it highlights God's wisdom. It’s completely different from how we think; it’s unexpected and totally counterintuitive. If it were up to us, we’d probably just try to outsmart our way out of it.

Look, Christ didn't send me out there just to go around baptizing people—that’s not my job. My mission is to preach the Gospel. And I’m not doing it with some fancy, polished oratorical bullshit just to make sure nobody feels embarrassed by the idea of Christ's cross. Seriously. To the people who are headed straight for destruction, talking about the cross sounds like total madness. But for us? For those of us being saved? It’s the literal power of God. It’s written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the intelligence of the intellectuals." So, where are they now? Where’s all that self-proclaimed "wise" crowd? Where are the scholars and the academic experts trying to deconstruct everything? Hasn't God already made a fool out of the world's supposed brilliance? Honestly, it’s hilarious. When the world fails to know God through its own "intellect," God decides to use the seemingly foolish preaching of the Gospel to save believers. It’s a complete subversion of their logic. I mean, think about it. You have the Jews looking for specific signs and the Greeks chasing after philosophy and cleverness, right? And here we are, just preaching about a crucified Christ. To the Jews, it’s a stumbling block. To the outsiders, it looks insane. But to everyone called to Him—both Jew and Greek—it is the very power and wisdom of God. God’s "foolishness" is infinitely wiser than any human genius, and His weakness is a hell of a lot stronger than any human strength. As it says: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what has never entered the human heart, God has prepared for those who love Him."

God's wrath fell on Jesus, sure, but God's wrath is still hanging over this world today—it just shows up a little differently now. If you look at Romans 1, you see it manifests by God essentially letting people go their own way; He leaves those with hardened hearts who have zero love for the truth to follow their own paths, and eventually, they'll get exactly what they deserve based on those choices.
Yeah, the wrath fell on Jesus, but if we want to be spared from God's wrath ourselves, we have to "hide" under the protection of the cross, meaning we have to accept Jesus' sacrifice, experience personal forgiveness, and start a new relationship with God as a Father rather than a Judge. 🙂

You can stress about this all you want, but one thing is certain:

Jesus came to fulfill the laws, ensuring they are carried out rather than tossed aside. After all, He lived them perfectly and showed everyone exactly how they should be followed.

If His goal had been to scrap the laws, He would have acted against them Himself to show everyone how to handle them. But nope! He stuck to them strictly and forbade anyone from abolishing them. So what happens next? Paul shows up, scraps the laws, gives Christians the thumbs up to do the same, and suddenly everyone starts following Paul instead of what Jesus actually said. Bravo! 👍Basically, you're giving priority to Paul—who never even met Jesus—over the actual words of Jesus.

If Jesus wanted to abolish the laws, He would have just said, "Hey, look, I'm eating pork, so go ahead and eat it too; the laws don't count anymore." But He never did that. Then along comes Paul, wipes it all out, and creates an entirely new religion called Christianity. Jesus never taught people "Christianity," and honestly, if someone tried to explain the concept of "Christianity" to Him in Aramaic, He probably wouldn't have known what they were talking about. It would have been totally foreign to Him.

It's just like if we suddenly threw away everything Muhammad taught and started following some fool after Muhammad passed away. 🙄It makes zero sense. Can you imagine a bigger delusion?

So, what Paul says doesn't matter at all if he isn't sharing the same faith as Jesus.

Harold Reyes3 said:

Jeremiah chapter 8 is basically a massive takedown of the priests and fake prophets right before the Babylonian captivity hit. These verses aren't attacking the Bible itself—they’re calling out the charlatans who led the people astray. It’s all about that blatant hypocrisy: "How can you possibly claim..."

You wouldn't believe the stuff I've seen. I’ve spotted hundreds of contradictions where one verse says one thing and the next says the exact opposite about the same situation. It’s glaringly obvious that someone went in and tinkered with the Bible texts. And it isn't just my opinion—God actually tells us in the Quran that the "sons of Israel" messed with the holy books, twisting the words, altering them, and even adding things while claiming they were from God.

That’s exactly why He came and died on the cross—to take the weight of the world's sins upon Himself. Through His death, He stepped in to shoulder our flaws and, in exchange, handed us His own righteousness. It's the ultimate trade!

Even the text you just put together goes against everything written in the Bible!

You’re saying He came to take on all the world's sins, but honestly, that just doesn't add up to me. It feels totally illogical. If He's carrying those sins, then what about this whole "original sin" concept? If you follow Jesus' teachings, He made it clear that children go straight to heaven. So, how can they possibly carry some inherited stain from Adam and Eve? If that's not what you mean, then what exactly are you getting at?
So, let's say I truly believe Jesus died for my sins, right? Does that mean I have a free pass to go wild? If I decide to kill someone in the name of God, rape a woman, snatch a wallet, beat someone up in an alley, or get high out of my mind—and then some guy looks at me like I'm a total lunatic and asks, "What is wrong with you? Are you insane?"—do I just shrug and tell him, "Don't be like that, man. You know Jesus died for our sins"? 😉It doesn't matter what we do right now because He’s going to gather them all up for us anyway!

Just ask your heart if this feels right.

He took our flaws upon Himself through His death—those of us who believe in His sacrifice—and in exchange, He handed us His righteousness!

It’s wild how you all love to turn things into some mystical mystery, complicating everything for no reason.

The only way this makes sense is if He came specifically to grant us His righteousness—to judge based on God's law, defining right from wrong so we can follow it to reach heaven. There's no need for sacrifices or the idea of a half-naked Jesus on a cross. It’s honestly strange how much you enjoy the image of Jesus being humiliated, half-naked and bleeding on a cross just to carry away your sins.

In the Quran, God teaches us that everyone is responsible for their own actions. Jesus has nothing to do with your sins.

When the manuscripts were discovered at Qumran back in 1947, researchers compared those scrolls, which date back to before Christ, with the modern translations of the Old Testament. It turned out that these texts, despite being separated by over 2,000 years, match the current versions by more than 95%. The remaining five percent of differences are clearly just clerical errors made during the actual writing or transcription process. They don't undermine the content of the message in any way. For example: out of 166 words in Isaiah chapter 53, only 17 letters are actually in question. Ten of those letters are simply matters of spelling that don't change the meaning. Four letters represent minor stylistic shifts, like conjunctions. The other three involve the word "light," which was added in the 11th line and doesn't affect the overall sense. Furthermore, that word is supported by the Septuagint and the Great Isaiah Scroll found in the caves near the Dead Sea. So, in a passage of 166 words, there is only one word (three letters) that is questionable, and even that word doesn't alter the meaning of the entire fragment.

As for the New Testament, we can verify its authenticity through more than 25,000 existing manuscripts.

The Quran itself isn't really an authoritative source (at least not for Christians) to judge the Bible, especially when you consider when it was produced.

Regarding Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection, I believe you are absolutely unqualified to debate the topic, as you seem to misunderstand the very foundations of Christianity. I see that you are judging Christianity and its message based on the tenets of Roman Catholicism and their flawed understanding. Their theology has caused significant damage, because non-Christians end up judging all of Christianity based on one massive misconception.

Harold Reyes3 said:

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? I mean, it was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!

Think about it this way: God gave us direct information about Jesus in the Quran, whereas the Bible is essentially a collection of people's accounts. Even Luke admits he was just gathering stories! He spent his time listening to what others had to say and trying to verify their accuracy before writing everything down. When you look at it like that, you have to ask yourself how much truth is actually there when you're relying on human hearsay—especially since those stories were being passed around decades after Jesus ascended.
Everyone’s got an opinion. One person says this, another claims that, and someone else is out there peddling a third version. It’s up to you to sift through the noise and figure out what actually holds water. Honestly, look at how stories work—if I tell a tale today and people start retelling it over the next few decades, half the details are bound to shift. People will inevitably add their own little twists and flavors just to make it sound better. That's just human nature!

Plus, it’s been proven that the Quran actually gets Christian doctrine wrong. For instance, when it describes the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... Mary 🤷

The Quran actually claims that you all believe in multiple gods—whether you realize it or not—and here’s the breakdown.

First off, the Quran states that we aren't a Trinity.

God says:

To all followers of the Book: don't lose your way! Stick to the facts when you talk about Allah. Jesus, the son of Mary, is simply a messenger of Allah—His Word, delivered through Mary, and a spirit from Him. So, keep your faith firm in Allah and His messengers! Don't go around saying, "It's the Trinity!" Stop it—you’ll feel much better! There is only one God, and praise be to Him! Does He really have a son? Everything in the heavens and everything on this American soil belongs to Him. God alone is all we need for protection.

Then you have Catholics who pray to Mary. From the perspective of the Quran, that’s basically giving God a partner. It puts her right up there on His level. Since Mary is deceased and can't actually hear you, calling out to her is like assigning her divine attributes. It’s like acting as if she can hear your prayers while you're sitting alone in your room. By doing that, you're automatically placing her alongside God by attributing divine qualities to a human.

The Quran tells us how God will examine Jesus on Judgment Day:

And when God says: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people..." "Accept me and my mother as two gods alongside Allah.""Praise be to You! It wouldn't be right for me to claim things I have no authority to say. If I spoke out of turn, You already know. You know everything I know, but there’s a massive gap between my knowledge and Yours—You alone hold the keys to everything hidden. I only shared exactly what You commanded: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and their Lord!' While I was walking among them, I looked out for them just as You told me to, but now that You've taken my soul, You are the only one watching over them. You're the one in charge of everything. If You decide to discipline them, they are Your servants; if You choose to forgive, You are the Almighty and the most merciful."

And it doesn't stop there—you guys basically put your priests in God's seat.

God says:

"They take their scholars and monks as lords instead of Allah..." (Quran, 9/31).

Now you might wonder how that works. It's simple! You go to a priest to confess, right? And he tells you, "You're forgiven." But since you're asking for forgiveness from anyone other than God, you're essentially treating that person like God. Only God has the authority to wipe away sins. How can anyone believe a regular mortal can forgive sins? It's wild. I actually saw a movie once where a guy bursts into a church and finds the priest and his wife hooking up under the covers 🙄it happened somewhere down in South America. So, this same priest is supposed to come out and forgive your sins after playing around with someone else's wife under a blanket? 👍That's just top-tier irony right there.

Allah makes it crystal clear.

No one can guide those whom Allah has left in error.

Look, when you bring up Luke, you have to realize he was a systematic historian through and through. He didn't just scribble things down; he conscientiously gathered the oral traditions that were actually valued back then—way more than they are in our hyper-modern, skeptical age. I really hope you realize that.

Look, it’s pretty simple if you actually look at the facts. Aside from Luke, we’re talking about the Gospels written by Jesus' own apostles—Matthew and John. That means we have first-hand accounts right there. As for the rest? Mark likely penned his portion under Peter's mentorship, considering how closely he worked alongside him. It's not that complicated.

I still stand by those reports. Straight from the horse's mouth. Look, I’m just going to say it: I trust the actual historical record way more than some twisted opinion from someone living in a completely different culture, centuries after the events even happened. Sorry, but my common sense just won't let me go along with that.

Harold Reyes3 said:

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? I mean, it was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!

Think about it this way: God gave us direct information about Jesus in the Quran, whereas the Bible is essentially a collection of people's accounts. Even Luke admits he was just gathering stories! He spent his time listening to what others had to say and trying to verify their accuracy before writing everything down. When you look at it like that, you have to ask yourself how much truth is actually there when you're relying on human hearsay—especially since those stories were being passed around decades after Jesus ascended.
Everyone’s got an opinion. One person says this, another claims that, and someone else is out there peddling a third version. It’s up to you to sift through the noise and figure out what actually holds water. Honestly, look at how stories work—if I tell a tale today and people start retelling it over the next few decades, half the details are bound to shift. People will inevitably add their own little twists and flavors just to make it sound better. That's just human nature!

Plus, it’s been proven that the Quran actually gets Christian doctrine wrong. For instance, when it describes the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... Mary 🤷

The Quran actually claims that you all believe in multiple gods—whether you realize it or not—and here’s the breakdown.

First off, the Quran states that we aren't a Trinity.

God says:

To all followers of the Book: don't lose your way! Stick to the facts when you talk about Allah. Jesus, the son of Mary, is simply a messenger of Allah—His Word, delivered through Mary, and a spirit from Him. So, keep your faith firm in Allah and His messengers! Don't go around saying, "It's the Trinity!" Stop it—you’ll feel much better! There is only one God, and praise be to Him! Does He really have a son? Everything in the heavens and everything on this American soil belongs to Him. God alone is all we need for protection.

Then you have Catholics who pray to Mary. From the perspective of the Quran, that’s basically giving God a partner. It puts her right up there on His level. Since Mary is deceased and can't actually hear you, calling out to her is like assigning her divine attributes. It’s like acting as if she can hear your prayers while you're sitting alone in your room. By doing that, you're automatically placing her alongside God by attributing divine qualities to a human.

The Quran tells us how God will examine Jesus on Judgment Day:

And when God says: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people..." "Accept me and my mother as two gods alongside Allah.""Praise be to You! It wouldn't be right for me to claim things I have no authority to say. If I spoke out of turn, You already know. You know everything I know, but there’s a massive gap between my knowledge and Yours—You alone hold the keys to everything hidden. I only shared exactly what You commanded: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and their Lord!' While I was walking among them, I looked out for them just as You told me to, but now that You've taken my soul, You are the only one watching over them. You're the one in charge of everything. If You decide to discipline them, they are Your servants; if You choose to forgive, You are the Almighty and the most merciful."

And it doesn't stop there—you guys basically put your priests in God's seat.

God says:

"They take their scholars and monks as lords instead of Allah..." (Quran, 9/31).

Now you might wonder how that works. It's simple! You go to a priest to confess, right? And he tells you, "You're forgiven." But since you're asking for forgiveness from anyone other than God, you're essentially treating that person like God. Only God has the authority to wipe away sins. How can anyone believe a regular mortal can forgive sins? It's wild. I actually saw a movie once where a guy bursts into a church and finds the priest and his wife hooking up under the covers 🙄it happened somewhere down in South America. So, this same priest is supposed to come out and forgive your sins after playing around with someone else's wife under a blanket? 👍That's just top-tier irony right there.

Allah makes it crystal clear.

No one can guide those whom Allah has left in error.

Question: The Quran claims that Christians have... Which THREE? God?

Harold Reyes3 said:

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? I mean, it was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!

Think about it this way: God gave us direct information about Jesus in the Quran, whereas the Bible is essentially a collection of people's accounts. Even Luke admits he was just gathering stories! He spent his time listening to what others had to say and trying to verify their accuracy before writing everything down. When you look at it like that, you have to ask yourself how much truth is actually there when you're relying on human hearsay—especially since those stories were being passed around decades after Jesus ascended.
Everyone’s got an opinion. One person says this, another claims that, and someone else is out there peddling a third version. It’s up to you to sift through the noise and figure out what actually holds water. Honestly, look at how stories work—if I tell a tale today and people start retelling it over the next few decades, half the details are bound to shift. People will inevitably add their own little twists and flavors just to make it sound better. That's just human nature!

Plus, it’s been proven that the Quran actually gets Christian doctrine wrong. For instance, when it describes the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... Mary 🤷

The Quran actually claims that you all believe in multiple gods—whether you realize it or not—and here’s the breakdown.

First off, the Quran states that we aren't a Trinity.

God says:

To all followers of the Book: don't lose your way! Stick to the facts when you talk about Allah. Jesus, the son of Mary, is simply a messenger of Allah—His Word, delivered through Mary, and a spirit from Him. So, keep your faith firm in Allah and His messengers! Don't go around saying, "It's the Trinity!" Stop it—you’ll feel much better! There is only one God, and praise be to Him! Does He really have a son? Everything in the heavens and everything on this American soil belongs to Him. God alone is all we need for protection.

Then you have Catholics who pray to Mary. From the perspective of the Quran, that’s basically giving God a partner. It puts her right up there on His level. Since Mary is deceased and can't actually hear you, calling out to her is like assigning her divine attributes. It’s like acting as if she can hear your prayers while you're sitting alone in your room. By doing that, you're automatically placing her alongside God by attributing divine qualities to a human.

The Quran tells us how God will examine Jesus on Judgment Day:

And when God says: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people..." "Accept me and my mother as two gods alongside Allah.""Praise be to You! It wouldn't be right for me to claim things I have no authority to say. If I spoke out of turn, You already know. You know everything I know, but there’s a massive gap between my knowledge and Yours—You alone hold the keys to everything hidden. I only shared exactly what You commanded: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and their Lord!' While I was walking among them, I looked out for them just as You told me to, but now that You've taken my soul, You are the only one watching over them. You're the one in charge of everything. If You decide to discipline them, they are Your servants; if You choose to forgive, You are the Almighty and the most merciful."

And it doesn't stop there—you guys basically put your priests in God's seat.

God says:

"They take their scholars and monks as lords instead of Allah..." (Quran, 9/31).

Now you might wonder how that works. It's simple! You go to a priest to confess, right? And he tells you, "You're forgiven." But since you're asking for forgiveness from anyone other than God, you're essentially treating that person like God. Only God has the authority to wipe away sins. How can anyone believe a regular mortal can forgive sins? It's wild. I actually saw a movie once where a guy bursts into a church and finds the priest and his wife hooking up under the covers 🙄it happened somewhere down in South America. So, this same priest is supposed to come out and forgive your sins after playing around with someone else's wife under a blanket? 👍That's just top-tier irony right there.

Allah makes it crystal clear.

No one can guide those whom Allah has left in error.

Thanks for quoting those two texts...👍

I’m asking you again: if you're reading nothing but the Quran and you don't know the first thing about Christianity, what conclusion are you being forced into? What are these "three Christian Gods" you keep talking about?

Harold Reyes3 said:

Why would anything written about Jesus in the Quran even matter? I mean, it was written centuries after he actually walked this earth!

Think about it this way: God gave us direct information about Jesus in the Quran, whereas the Bible is essentially a collection of people's accounts. Even Luke admits he was just gathering stories! He spent his time listening to what others had to say and trying to verify their accuracy before writing everything down. When you look at it like that, you have to ask yourself how much truth is actually there when you're relying on human hearsay—especially since those stories were being passed around decades after Jesus ascended.
Everyone’s got an opinion. One person says this, another claims that, and someone else is out there peddling a third version. It’s up to you to sift through the noise and figure out what actually holds water. Honestly, look at how stories work—if I tell a tale today and people start retelling it over the next few decades, half the details are bound to shift. People will inevitably add their own little twists and flavors just to make it sound better. That's just human nature!

Plus, it’s been proven that the Quran actually gets Christian doctrine wrong. For instance, when it describes the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and... Mary 🤷

The Quran actually claims that you all believe in multiple gods—whether you realize it or not—and here’s the breakdown.

First off, the Quran states that we aren't a Trinity.

God says:

To all followers of the Book: don't lose your way! Stick to the facts when you talk about Allah. Jesus, the son of Mary, is simply a messenger of Allah—His Word, delivered through Mary, and a spirit from Him. So, keep your faith firm in Allah and His messengers! Don't go around saying, "It's the Trinity!" Stop it—you’ll feel much better! There is only one God, and praise be to Him! Does He really have a son? Everything in the heavens and everything on this American soil belongs to Him. God alone is all we need for protection.

Then you have Catholics who pray to Mary. From the perspective of the Quran, that’s basically giving God a partner. It puts her right up there on His level. Since Mary is deceased and can't actually hear you, calling out to her is like assigning her divine attributes. It’s like acting as if she can hear your prayers while you're sitting alone in your room. By doing that, you're automatically placing her alongside God by attributing divine qualities to a human.

The Quran tells us how God will examine Jesus on Judgment Day:

And when God says: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people..." "Accept me and my mother as two gods alongside Allah.""Praise be to You! It wouldn't be right for me to claim things I have no authority to say. If I spoke out of turn, You already know. You know everything I know, but there’s a massive gap between my knowledge and Yours—You alone hold the keys to everything hidden. I only shared exactly what You commanded: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and their Lord!' While I was walking among them, I looked out for them just as You told me to, but now that You've taken my soul, You are the only one watching over them. You're the one in charge of everything. If You decide to discipline them, they are Your servants; if You choose to forgive, You are the Almighty and the most merciful."

And it doesn't stop there—you guys basically put your priests in God's seat.

God says:

"They take their scholars and monks as lords instead of Allah..." (Quran, 9/31).

Now you might wonder how that works. It's simple! You go to a priest to confess, right? And he tells you, "You're forgiven." But since you're asking for forgiveness from anyone other than God, you're essentially treating that person like God. Only God has the authority to wipe away sins. How can anyone believe a regular mortal can forgive sins? It's wild. I actually saw a movie once where a guy bursts into a church and finds the priest and his wife hooking up under the covers 🙄it happened somewhere down in South America. So, this same priest is supposed to come out and forgive your sins after playing around with someone else's wife under a blanket? 👍That's just top-tier irony right there.

Allah makes it crystal clear.

No one can guide those whom Allah has left in error.

I don't even feel the need to address that, because biblical Christians don't practice anything like that...

When those manuscripts were discovered in Qumran back in 1947, researchers compared them—dating all the way back to before Christ—with our modern translations of the Old Testament. It turns out those texts, despite being separated by over 2,000 years, match up at over 95%! That remaining 5%? Those are just obvious typos or minor spelling slips. They don't change the actual message at all. For example: looking at 166 words in Isaiah 53, we’re only talking about 17 letters. Ten of those letters are just simple scribal quirks that don't affect the meaning. Four are minor stylistic tweaks, like using different conjunctions. The last three involve the word "light," which was added in line 11 but doesn't shift the core point. Plus, that word actually has support in the Septuagint and the IQ Isaiah scroll found in the caves near the Dead Sea. So, out of a 166-word passage, there's only one three-letter word that's even questionable, and even then, it doesn't change the meaning of the fragment.

If what you're saying is true, why didn't they fix the mistakes in the Bible? Instead, these errors are everywhere.

It just makes no sense. People only pull these "errors" out of thin air when they want to corner someone.

A holy book from God shouldn't and can't have mistakes, yet the Bible does. The Bible itself says it was shaped through the stories of various peoples, so logically, errors are bound to happen. Not only that, but people intentionally altered the Bible—adding what suited them and cutting what they didn't like—and then passed it off to the public as being from God.

As for the New Testament, we can verify its authenticity through more than 25,000 existing manuscripts.

Well, regarding the New Testament, it's just as full of mistakes as the Old Testament. And I'm not just rambling about random errors; let me show you exactly why I say they are full of them.

An Old Testament error:

CONTRADICTION 6: Did David capture 1,700 or 7,000 charioteers?

1,700 charioteers:

"David captured one thousand seven hundred charioteers and twenty thousand foot soldiers. David gave all the horses to the Amorites, leaving only a hundred horses."
(2 Samuel 8:4)

7,000 charioteers:

"David took from them one thousand chariots, seven thousand charioteers, and twenty thousand foot soldiers. David gave all the horses to the Amorites, leaving only a hundred horses."
(1 Chronicles 18:4)

An Old Testament error:

CONTRADICTION 38: Is Jesus' testimony true?

It is true:
„Jesus said to them, "Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true.“ (John 8:14)

It is not true:
„If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true..“ (John 5:31)

And check this out—look closely at what God says about what you all have done with the Bible:

13. But because they broke their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They would remove words from places where they belonged and leave out a good part of what they were warned about. You will encounter much deceit among them, except for a few, but forgive them and do not rebuke them—for indeed, Allah loves those who do good.

79. Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah"—just to gain a little profit! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they gain from it!

The Quran itself isn't an authority (at least not for Christians) when it comes to judging the Bible—especially considering when it was written.

That’s hardly an argument against the Quran! Think about it: if it came later, does that mean the walls should have spoken up about the Gospels? It arrived after the Torah, so that doesn't make it invalid. 🙄Give me a break.

I honestly think you’re out of your depth discussing Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection because you just don't grasp the core of Christianity. You're judging the entire faith based on Roman Catholic interpretations and their misconceptions. Their theology has done massive damage because non-Christians end up judging all of Christianity by one big error.

Look, I'm basing my arguments on your own texts, not on what some random person says.