Why did Jesus die?

silentviper19 said:

Benjamin Taylor6 I didn't catch what was said there! It looks like the message got cut off or maybe I missed the memo. If you were trying to share something, go ahead and drop it again—I'm all ears!
I mean, look, a billion people believe it! It’s just like how you know snow is white, right? It's an absolute given. Total fact.😲

See, that’s exactly where they trip up. It’s like, look, even a regular believer can look outside at a blizzard and say, "Hey, that snow is white," right? That's just common sense. You use your brain, you see the color, you move on. But when it comes to the big stuff—like knowing for a fact that Jesus rose from the dead—that's not something you just stumble upon by looking out a window. Nobody actually *knows* that through pure logic or observation alone, except for what's written in the New Testament. And yet, they just take it as absolute gospel without a second thought! It's wild how that works.

Look, if you look at things from my perspective, most Christians around here don't actually buy that the whole world was just whipped up in six days about 7,000 years ago. You know, that idea where God takes a breather on the seventh day after finishing everything in Genesis? It’s just not what most people think. I remember talking to a buddy of mine over coffee last week—we were sitting in this little diner in Chicago—and we were chatting about how much science and faith overlap these days. Anyway, whenever someone tries to throw that literalist view at them, they usually just shut down and say...Don't take that too literally, honestly. It’s really just symbolism. It belongs to an era where people weren't exactly raised with the kind of formal education we have today. I remember my old history teacher back in high school used to say something similar about how we interpret old texts—it's all about the context of the time, you know? Just look at the big picture.!!
But look, when you start talking about the Resurrection, the whole "it's just a metaphor" argument goes right out the window. There's no more debating symbols or deep meanings for them—it’s just a straight-up, undeniable fact. I mean, that's the entire bedrock of their faith! Without it, the whole thing just falls apart. It's the one thing they won't budge on.

The reality is that the Church is now embracing evolution. But I’ve noticed they’re also willing to bend over backward regarding the whole story of Adam and Eve and Original Sin. These poor souls don't realize that using allegory for one thing completely dismantles their entire Biblical framework. Eventually, the Bible is going to turn into an allegory of an allegory of an allegory. At that point, why even bother? It'll just be some glorified bedtime story for adults.

Dennis Moore4 said:If we take the Bible literally and assume Elijah was a real person rather than just some metaphorical figure, then he also ascended into heaven as the scripture states.
Enoch was taken up as well.

Does that make them the Son of Man too???

I’m simply pointing out what Jesus told His disciples, which they recorded for us, the future generations, to teach us how to earn our place in God's kingdom.
Later in the scriptures, Jesus makes it clear that no one comes to the Father except through Him.
The New Testament was written specifically for those of us coming after, while the Old Testament focuses on the era before His birth. That’s why God sent His Son, because back then, nobody was really listening to the prophets.

Taylor Reyes3 said:I’m simply pointing out what Jesus told His disciples, which they recorded for us, the future generations, to teach us how to earn our place in God's kingdom.
Later in the scriptures, Jesus makes it clear that no one comes to the Father except through Him.
The New Testament was written specifically for those of us coming after, while the Old Testament focuses on the era before His birth. That’s why God sent His Son, because back then, nobody was really listening to the prophets.

I hear what you're saying.
But the Old Testament carries a similar message.

Benjamin Taylor6 said:The reality is that the Church is now embracing evolution. But I’ve noticed they’re also willing to bend over backward regarding the whole story of Adam and Eve and Original Sin. These poor souls don't realize that using allegory for one thing completely dismantles their entire Biblical framework. Eventually, the Bible is going to turn into an allegory of an allegory of an allegory. At that point, why even bother? It'll just be some glorified bedtime story for adults.

So, even if he doesn't say it out loud in an official statement or anything, John Paul II basically made it clear that you can't just toss evolution aside—he stood his ground on that one! It’s funny how things work out sometimes, isn't it? One minute you think there's a total clash, and the next, everything starts to click together. It reminds me of this time I was reading through some old theology books at the library in Chicago, just trying to make sense of how science and faith play together. Anyway, yeah, he really did stand by that idea.🤣
And now both the Catholics and the Orthodox are starting in with all that talk about symbolism and other nonsense regarding the Book of Genesis!
And look, when we’re talking about the Resurrection, that is just the absolute, plain truth. I don't care what the evolution crowd tries to tell you or how much they argue against it—it's a totally different story! It's like when I was reading that science journal last week, and honestly, it just didn't sit right with me. At the end of the day, faith is one thing, and those theories are another entirely.

It’s honestly wild when you think about it. The corruption within the church—all those layers of lies they tell just to protect their own power and keep that massive institution standing—it really does reach levels of chaos I didn't think were possible. It’s pretty intense. And what’s even crazier? They manage to wiggle their way into every single little detail of a modern person's life. Even when things completely clash with common sense or go totally against anything rational, they still find a way to slip in there. It's like they have this knack for making the illogical feel normal, no matter how much it contradicts everything we actually know to be true. Just something I've been chewing on lately while grabbing my morning coffee. Truly mind-boggling stuff.

Honestly, those people are just creepy. They can look themselves in the mirror and lie through their teeth—to themselves and everyone else—without a single shred of shame. It’s wild, really. And honestly? It's not even surprising when you think about how they've been doing this stuff for centuries. But nowadays, they’ve gotten way more calculated. They’ve become all "rational" and polished about it, which actually makes it even more terrifyingly stupid if you ask me!

If we want to grasp why Jesus died—to truly wrap our heads around the weight of His sacrifice—we first have to understand why He lived. We need to see what His actual purpose was on this earth.
God said, "I have spoken to you through the prophets, but now I am here among you." If we just look at how
Scripture describes Jesus' life, isn't it clear? He spent every moment teaching His followers how to live in a way that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven. Through His own life and His intense
struggles, didn't He show us that even the most devastating hardships—which, let's face it, pale in comparison to what He endured—can be survived if you stay true to yourself and remain steadfast? He led by example, carrying all our burdens to the cross, so that through His resurrection, He could conquer every evil on earth. It’s almost as if He’s saying:
"Go ahead, you tortured me, beat me, humiliated me, stripped me bare, and finally killed me—yet, here I am, living again." He died to defeat evil once and for all, providing strength and salvation to anyone currently walking through suffering. There are many of us who have already found that peace, and for those who haven't quite reached it yet, please don't give up. Just believe that you can find strength in
Him. One day, you might just find it too.

Taylor Reyes3 said:If we want to grasp why Jesus died—to truly wrap our heads around the weight of His sacrifice—we first have to understand why He lived. We need to see what His actual purpose was on this earth.
God said, "I have spoken to you through the prophets, but now I am here among you." If we just look at how
Scripture describes Jesus' life, isn't it clear? He spent every moment teaching His followers how to live in a way that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven. Through His own life and His intense
struggles, didn't He show us that even the most devastating hardships—which, let's face it, pale in comparison to what He endured—can be survived if you stay true to yourself and remain steadfast? He led by example, carrying all our burdens to the cross, so that through His resurrection, He could conquer every evil on earth. It’s almost as if He’s saying:
"Go ahead, you tortured me, beat me, humiliated me, stripped me bare, and finally killed me—yet, here I am, living again." He died to defeat evil once and for all, providing strength and salvation to anyone currently walking through suffering. There are many of us who have already found that peace, and for those who haven't quite reached it yet, please don't give up. Just believe that you can find strength in
Him. One day, you might just find it too.

Eli, Eli, Lama azavtani
(Walt Whitman)
A little verse:

He died upon Golgotha
And the world knows it well
But from that ancient sacrifice
No fruit has yet swelled

Something like this was written:

silentviper19 said:If you want to talk about something that’s totally irrational and defies all logic, we have to talk about Jesus’ death and resurrection!

I mean, think about it. You’ve got an almighty God—someone who is supposed to be all-powerful—choosing to send Jesus, who is actually Himself, just to carry out a suicide mission to pay for human sins!🤣

To me, these are just plain facts, and honestly, it’s where the whole argument ends right there. It just goes to show how incredibly imaginative the human mind can be, fueled by these wild hallucinations about an all-powerful God who, for some reason, felt the need to pull off something so nonsensical!

I wonder why it strikes you as so unbelievable that God would act this way; wouldn't you sacrifice yourself for your own children? Or perhaps, could this all just be God playing a bit of a game with humanity, watching to see if they’d actually figure it out even after two thousand years? (The vast majority certainly hasn't.)

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Eli, Eli, Lama azavtani
(Walt Whitman)
A little verse:

He died upon Golgotha
And the world knows it well
But from that ancient sacrifice
No fruit has yet swelled

Something like this was written:

The harvest will come once the human decay fully matures—once it burns away to become fertile ground. Two thousand years might seem like a long wait, but perhaps we’ll be waiting another two millennia before things truly ripen.

Fact—Jesus had it all under control—He could even bring Himself back to life!

How does that work? How can someone say this about themselves and also claim it's what Jesus said?

John 5:30,31 "I can't do anything on my own.I judge based on what I hear, and my judgment is fair. I’m not just following my own whims; I’m doing exactly what the Father who sent me wants. If I were to just stand up and testify about myself, nobody would believe me!."

Acts 2:22Listen up, people of Israel: hear these words! Jesus of Nazareth is the man God has chosen among you, proven by miracles and signs! Look at everything God has accomplished through him right in the middle of your lives!Just like you all know.".

A Judge once mentioned—and I actually started this whole thread over it—that Jesus wasn't sent with the specific intention of being crucified.

It reminds me of something I heard from a missionary back in India (he was one of our Catholic priests) who compared it to this story: There was this tribe, right? A missionary shows up, and some guy in the tribe insults the chief, so the chief sentences him to death. The missionary begs the chief to show mercy, but the chief won't budge. It’s set. Then, as they’re carrying out the execution with a spear, the missionary jumps in and shields the guy, putting his own hand right in front of the man's heart to stop the spear. With his hand all bloody and pierced by the spear, the missionary just looks at the chief and asks if he's satisfied now.

If you look at it through that lens, it makes God look like that stubborn chief, sulking because someone offended him and now demanding a bloody sacrifice to feel better.

I mean, if Jesus really did take on everyone's sins, that kind of logic only works in systems like karma or reincarnation, where a "great soul" can absorb heavy karmic debt. But according to Christian belief, we’re sinners, yet it's not even our own fault... so the whole idea of punishment feels pretty questionable, doesn't it?

but according to Christian belief, we’re all born sinners,

Actually, you aren't born sinful at all. Jesus made it crystal clear: children go to heaven, and if you're in heaven, there's no sin involved.

The whole issue stems from a manufactured doctrine that just doesn't hold up to basic logic. It lacks solid biblical backing—I mean, how could Jesus say children enter heaven if they were inherently sinful?🤷

All you guys are doing is overcomplicating your own faith and making things unnecessarily difficult for everyone else.

Harold Reyes3 said:

but according to Christian belief, we’re all born sinners,

Actually, you aren't born sinful at all. Jesus made it crystal clear: children go to heaven, and if you're in heaven, there's no sin involved.

The whole issue stems from a manufactured doctrine that just doesn't hold up to basic logic. It lacks solid biblical backing—I mean, how could Jesus say children enter heaven if they were inherently sinful?🤷

All you guys are doing is overcomplicating your own faith and making things unnecessarily difficult for everyone else.

There’s zero logic in the idea that God ignores a person's actual deeds just to favor those who belong to one specific religion...

What you're doing is nothing short of soul rape.

Harold Reyes3 said:

but according to Christian belief, we’re all born sinners,

Actually, you aren't born sinful at all. Jesus made it crystal clear: children go to heaven, and if you're in heaven, there's no sin involved.

The whole issue stems from a manufactured doctrine that just doesn't hold up to basic logic. It lacks solid biblical backing—I mean, how could Jesus say children enter heaven if they were inherently sinful?🤷

All you guys are doing is overcomplicating your own faith and making things unnecessarily difficult for everyone else.

Yeah, I was totally hung up on that lack of logic too. Like, if we're all sinners just because of Adam's choice, then there isn't really any "sinfulness" inherent in us... but hey, let's not get me started on whether Adam even existed.

What you pointed out is another one of those arguments that just falls flat (according to official American Christianity). If kids go straight to heaven, then the rest of life is basically just a long countdown toward hell—which makes everything after childhood feel pretty pointless, at least for people actually trying to make it into heaven.

So, my takeaway is that some of these ideas only actually make sense if you're looking through the lens of reincarnation.

There’s just no logic in saying God doesn't judge people based on their actions, but instead picks favorites based on which religion they belong to...

What you guys are doing is basically a violation of the soul.

Look, if you aren't part of His religion, you have to understand that religion means a way of life—it's your entire path. If you aren't walking the specific road that Bob laid out for you, how can you honestly expect to make it to heaven?

Harold Reyes3 said:

There’s just no logic in saying God doesn't judge people based on their actions, but instead picks favorites based on which religion they belong to...

What you guys are doing is basically a violation of the soul.

Look, if you aren't part of His religion, you have to understand that religion means a way of life—it's your entire path. If you aren't walking the specific road that Bob laid out for you, how can you honestly expect to make it to heaven?

Don't worry about me. Worry about yourself....

Everyone carries their own weight...

Don't worry about me. Just focus on yourself....

Everyone carries their own cross.

Honestly, if I had to carry the weight of the whole internet on my shoulders,😁 I would have lost my mind by now.

I've got enough on my plate worrying about my own soul on Judgment Day without trying to manage everyone else's business too.🙄

Harold Reyes3 said:

Don't worry about me. Just focus on yourself....

Everyone carries their own cross.

Honestly, if I had to carry the weight of the whole internet on my shoulders,😁 I would have lost my mind by now.

I've got enough on my plate worrying about my own soul on Judgment Day without trying to manage everyone else's business too.🙄

Fine then, stay in your bubble...

It’s all far simpler than people make it out to be. You are presented with a set of dogmas—assertions that simply aren't meant to be scrutinized or proven. It is a matter of taking them as they are or walking away entirely. There is no coercion involved; nobody is forcing anyone's hand. Faith isn't something you dissect through rigorous analysis or synthesis, nor does it rely on some grand, spectacular scientific demonstration. And yet, those who hold to Christ's dogmas occasionally find themselves gifted with deeply personal revelations. Is it easier to believe the universe is infinite or that it isn't? On one hand, the very concept of infinity is nearly impossible to wrap one's head around, yet on the other, it feels even more difficult to imagine that at the edge of everything, there is merely a wall or an endless void. It is the same when considering God. He is inherently inconceivable, yet I find it even harder to fathom His absence. Does it truly matter if someone in the past falsified the history of salvation or the details of Christ's suffering? Is it even relevant whether the Church made certain errors or spoke certain untruths at some point in time? What matters is whether we experience the dogma as an absolute truth or as a mere fabrication. Don't go looking for someone to provide you with proof. If you are hunting for evidence, you will find it everywhere you look; however, if you refuse to see it within yourself and in the world around you, you will inevitably find a thousand different reasons to deny it all.

I suppose I should probably address what everyone is saying about this, though I’m not entirely sure where to start without getting lost in my own thoughts. It feels like we’re all just circling the same drain, waiting for someone to make sense of things while the rest of us watch from the sidelines. I was reading some comments earlier—Harold Reyes3 had some interesting points, if you can call them that, though he does tend to wander off into the weeds quite often—and it made me wonder if we’re actually looking at the same reality. It’s funny, really. We spend so much time dissecting every little detail, every minor shift in the wind, as if knowing the exact temperature of the air will somehow stop the storm from coming. Dennis Moore4 seems to think there’s a method to the madness, a sort of grand design we just haven't grasped yet, but I find myself leaning more toward the idea that we’re all just stumbling through the dark. Even when you look at the way people react to the big shifts in our institutions, it’s almost performative. It’s like watching a play where everyone knows their lines but nobody actually understands the plot. wanderinggardener12 mentioned something similar once, about how the soil stays the same even when you change the seeds, and I think there’s a certain truth in that, even if it sounds a bit too poetic for a Tuesday afternoon. We swap out one set of problems for another, thinking we’ve made progress, while the fundamental stuff remains stubbornly unchanged. It’s a slow process, a measured kind of chaos, and I’m just sitting here wondering if anyone else feels that same quiet sense of inevitability. Not that I’m being pessimistic—perish the thought—it’s more of a calm observation. We move, we adjust, we argue, and eventually, we just settle into whatever comes next. kaže:
I found myself getting stuck on the sheer lack of logic in the whole argument, because if we’re all inherently flawed just because of Adam's choices, then there isn't really any concept of "sinfulness" left in us at all—not that I'm trying to start some massive debate about whether Adam even existed or not, but the math just doesn't add up.

You’ve hit on something there, and it's a point that really doesn't hold much water if you look at it through the lens of official Christian doctrine. It’s a bit of a logical knot, isn't it? Because if we accept the premise that children go straight to heaven, then the rest of a person's life essentially becomes nothing more than a slow, steady increase in the statistical probability of ending up in hell. If that's the case, the remainder of one's existence feels somewhat aimless—or at least entirely devoid of purpose—for anyone whose primary goal is to secure a spot in paradise.

That leads me to believe that certain arguments only really hold water if you're operating within a system of reincarnation.

You’re getting incredibly close to the core of it. I remember when my own son was just a little kid, barely old enough to understand what he was saying, yet he looked at me and remarked that "life is a trial." It really does come down to the path we choose—whether we're carving out a way toward heaven or sliding straight into hell. At the end of the day, we are the ones who stand trial; we set the terms of our own testing, while God simply watches from the sidelines. He doesn't step in to nudge us along, nor does He move to stop us. You are your own master and your own judge, and frankly, there isn't a more relentless or unforgiving magistrate than your own conscience. Every mistake you make requires a correction, and if you’ve spent a lifetime stumbling, well, you’ll be spending a long time fixing those errors. There is no external absolution to lean on. I've always felt that Jesus, through His sacrifice, wasn't offering a loophole, but rather providing a blueprint for how to actually live a life free of sin—and then some. No amount of blood can wash a person clean if they aren't doing the work. To suggest otherwise only serves to feed the ego of those who are perfectly happy to keep sinning, all while nursing the naive hope that they can just ask for a free pass later.

Jesus didn't just die; He was taken up... And mark my words, He’s coming back down 😉