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Why did Jesus die?

Started by Angela Martin20 · · 👁 18 views · 518 replies

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Participants Angela Martin20steelgardener22Harold Reyes3rowdyhawk10Henry Williamsslyviper9Megan Long21Jessica Doyle67Benjamin Taylor6Harold Richardsonvelvetmaker39Jack White10Lawrence Bailey77silentviper19Taylor Reyes3Dennis Moore4mistygull16wanderinggardener12Nicholas Edwards10Gregory Jacksonsilenthound4silverraven7ruggedeagle10Alex Ramos91 …
ruggedeagle10 ruggedeagle10 Member
25 messages
joined Oct 2010
#81 ·
Angela Martin20 said:I feel like a complete idiot right now, but whatever
from what I gather, Jesus was accused of all sorts of things, but I'm really stuck on the part where he redeemed our sins through his death... like, why? How exactly does his passing lead to our salvation?

In short:

It is because when you follow His example, you effectively kill the evil within yourself while nurturing the good. This leads to a spiritual rebirth that grants you a level of strength, peace, and joy far greater than any hardship, suffering, or pain this world can throw at you. When you eventually look back—whether later in life or at its very end—and assess where you stand and who you have become compared to who you would have been without the example, guidance, and strength provided by Jesus, you realize He has redeemed you from sin and all its consequences (the agony, the suffering, the emptiness, the lack of purpose, the self-condemnation, and so on).
velvetmaker39 velvetmaker39 Member
31 messages
joined Jan 2011
#82 ·
mistygull16 said:Alright, let’s get specific here—in your own life, anyway. I haven't done anything nearly bad enough to deserve a death sentence, and honestly, if some king decided to sentence me to death, I'd just call him an unjust ruler🤷 I'm still stuck on what you actually did to make God so incredibly angry😕 Like, what exactly did He forgive you for?

If we were talking about a raise at work, sure, I'd be interested. But when the President hands out pardons? That's really only news for the folks sitting in a cell somewhere.

By being here, it implies we’ve messed up somehow and need to set things right during this lifetime—or rather, during this repeated grade in school. It's like failing a class; you didn't learn the material, so you have to retake it, and life works much the same way. Is death itself really a punishment when there's a chance you might return, and besides, we all have to die eventually whenever our time comes.
mistygull16 mistygull16 Active Member
199 messages
joined May 2013
#83 ·
velvetmaker39 said:By being here, it implies we’ve messed up somehow and need to set things right during this lifetime—or rather, during this repeated grade in school. It's like failing a class; you didn't learn the material, so you have to retake it, and life works much the same way. Is death itself really a punishment when there's a chance you might return, and besides, we all have to die eventually whenever our time comes.

I'm with you there, if we're talking reincarnation! 👍

But honestly, I'm curious what everyone else thinks, specifically those who don't believe they existed before this life, yet still feel like they’ve been forgiven 🤷 for something.

I mean, if I went to some judge today to thank him for forgiving a $4,000 debt (roughly what the national debt would be per person if you split it up)that'd be pretty stupid, but if I actually committed a crime, ended up in prison, finally saw the light, repented, and started acting right, then getting a pardon to cut my sentence in half? Yeah, I'd definitely be grateful for that pardon if I actually did something wrong.
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#84 ·
ruggedeagle10 said:In short:

It is because when you follow His example, you effectively kill the evil within yourself while nurturing the good. This leads to a spiritual rebirth that grants you a level of strength, peace, and joy far greater than any hardship, suffering, or pain this world can throw at you. When you eventually look back—whether later in life or at its very end—and assess where you stand and who you have become compared to who you would have been without the example, guidance, and strength provided by Jesus, you realize He has redeemed you from sin and all its consequences (the agony, the suffering, the emptiness, the lack of purpose, the self-condemnation, and so on).

Those are beautiful sentiments, really—lovely phrases—but they often drift quite far from reality. I could go to Mass every single day, take communion constantly, and yet find that absolutely nothing in my life has shifted. It raises the question: what exactly am I supposed to be changing? To become a "better person"? But what does that even mean? And better for whom? Am I trying to be better for my own sake, or for someone else? My boss at the firm seems to think a "better person" is someone who doesn't bother asking for a raise or a holiday bonus. My wife thinks a "better husband" is the one who makes sure dinner is on the table every single night—even if she's home all day and I'm the one out working. Then there's my brother, who seemingly thinks my only job should be changing my bedridden mother's diapers, all so that once she passes, he can inherit the entire house. In his twisted logic, the less I get and the more he keeps, the closer I'll be to God. 😍
So, "goodness" is a pretty questionable category, isn't it? How much "goodness" can a person practice before they simply turn into a fool? And honestly, being a fool might actually be a bigger sin than being selfish. Being a fool is a sin against oneself. Even Christ didn't go on a hunger strike just because he saw merchants setting up stalls in the temple. If he were just looking to be a "holy man" through self-deprivation, he would have starved himself to teach those merchants a lesson. Instead, he went in there and flipped the tables.
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#85 ·
@benizg
Picture this scenario:
George, a decent family man, heads home after an exhausting day at work. He’s just looking forward to some peace and quiet with his family to recharge from all the stress. He’s already thinking about grabbing a burger with his son on the way in.
But when he walks through the door, he finds the front door wide open and a window smashed. He rushes inside, and what he sees is absolutely gut-wrenching.
His son is lying in a pool of blood, and a robber is struggling with his wife.
Driven by pure adrenaline, George jumps the attacker and takes him down. The police show up and haul the guy off to jail.
After some time passes, the robber goes to trial. He confesses to everything, and the judge hands down the verdict:
"The facts are clear: you committed murder and robbery out of pure greed. According to the law, you deserve the harshest sentence possible—the death penalty.
However, since you seem genuinely remorseful, and because I am a merciful judge full of love, I’m dropping all charges. You're free to go."

Was that a fair trial? What would George think about that?
George tells the reporters, "This is a total joke! We’re filing an appeal with the Supreme Court immediately. There’s a judge sitting on that bench who is more crooked than the criminal who murdered my son!" 😠

So, where does justice stand? 😕

It’s obvious to anyone watching this fake scenario that the verdict is a sham. That judge isn't being just, and he isn't being merciful or loving (even if he claims he is).

But here’s the kicker: many people believe that God is exactly like that kind of judge!
At least when it comes to judging them personally, or perhaps someone they loved dearly who passed away recently.

Someone might argue, "But doesn't the Bible say that God is love?"
Sure, He is. But God is also holy and just, and His love can't be unjust, unlike that ridiculous judge in our story. The Bible also explicitly states that God detests those who justify the wicked and those who condemn the righteous.
Because God cannot be unjust—meaning He is always perfectly consistent with His own character—He must judge anyone who violates His law, whether it’s a "minor" slip-up (like something you or I might do) or a massive atrocity (like a neighbor's crime or even Hitler).

Back in Eden, Adam and Eve only needed one sin (and it didn't even seem that huge at the time) to be kicked out of Paradise and cut off from God's presence.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, which is a spiritual law consistent with God's righteous nature. And I'm not talking about physical death—Adam and Eve didn't drop dead that very day—I'm talking about spiritual death: eternal separation from God and His love and grace.

Throughout our lives, we all rack up a mountain of small and large sins. If we compare ourselves to our neighbors, we might feel like we're doing okay. But a righteous God can't just overlook our failures or sweep them under the rug. As Abraham once asked God: "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)
Isaiah, who was arguably one of the most upright and holy men of his era, stood before God's throne in a vision and cried out in desperation: "Woe is me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Armies!" (Isaiah 6:5)
Even a man who lived a life of peak morality and spent his mission calling out injustice, when faced with God's holiness, realized the first thing: that he himself was a sinner before God and subject to His righteous judgment.

If that's the case for someone like Isaiah, do you or I stand any chance before a God like that?
Does God's holiness and righteousness leave any room for His love? 😕

In this seemingly impossible situation, God, in His love, provided a solution. And it's a solution that will magnify both of those traits to an unimaginable scale.

Jesus, the Son of God, came from the pure and holy heavens down to this filthy, fallen planet—right into the middle of people who aren't even looking for Him, people who are actively rebelling against Him and trying to wash their consciences clean with "good deeds."
He was the pure and holy King, yet He was born into the absolute depths of poverty in a cave surrounded by livestock, part of a struggling provincial family with the social stigma of nobody knowing who His father was.
For thirty years, He was obedient to His imperfect earthly parents because He wanted to do His Father’s will.
Then He stepped into public life, doing good and teaching people how to live right.
He hung out with the very people society looked down on: tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers.
He never chased fame or cared about what people thought of Him. When they tried to crown Him, He just walked away.
Whenever He healed someone or pulled off a miracle, He made sure nobody found out, because He didn't want to be known just for those things.
In the end, His close friend betrays Him, everyone else abandons Him, and they all pretend they never even knew Him.
He gets hit with false accusations, an unfair trial, mockery, beatings... and He dies the most brutal and shameful death possible for that era—hanging on a Roman cross.

What does any of that have to do with God's righteousness or His love?
Think about it: Jesus, the only man to ever walk this earth without sin, dies the most agonizing death imaginable. Was that just some freak accident that messed up God's plan?

Just a day or two before He is killed, Jesus knows exactly what's coming, and He says this: "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow, what can I say? Father, will You take this hour from me? No, because that is why I came! Father, glorify Your name!" (John 12:27)
Jesus came to this world specifically for that death on the cross.
The night before He is arrested, He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane at the foot of the Mount of Olives. He was shaking like a leaf, pleading desperately with the Father, until the sweat on His forehead turned to blood. He prayed: "Father! If it is Your will, take this cup from me. But not my will, but Yours be done!" (Luke 22:42)
But the Father's will was for Him to take that path, and He accepted it without complaining or wanting revenge on the people who were going to crucify Him.

But there is something deeply strange here.
Why on earth would Jesus, the Son of God, be trembling like a weakling when facing physical death on a cross?🤷
I mean, thousands upon thousands of Christians in the centuries that followed went to Roman crosses or faced lions in arenas with songs on their lips, yet here is the very source of their salvation, shaking like a total coward in front of the cross.

So, what was actually inside that cup the Father offered His Son to drink to the dregs?

Here are just two examples where God's cup is mentioned and what it contains:
"For in the hand of Yahweh is a cup overflowing with wine, spiced with aromatic herbs; He feeds from it, and all the wicked of the earth will drain it to the dregs." (Psalm 75:9)
"...they shall drink the wine of God's wrath, undiluted, poured into the cup of His fury!" (Revelation 14:10)

When Peter stood up to defend Him with a sword against the soldiers coming to arrest Him along with Judas, Jesus tells him:
"Put your sword away! Should I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" (John 18:11)

That cup of righteous, divine anger against sin and those who commit it—that was what was handed to Jesus.
He, the only one who was sinless, always pure and holy, had to take my sins and yours upon Himself. He had to face not just Pontius Pilate or the Jewish Sanhedrin, but the holy, righteous, and almighty God, who must judge sin according to justice—with death!
Jesus wasn't afraid in the Garden of Gethsemane of Judas, or the Romans, or being whipped, or the nails, or the wooden cross... He was trembling at the thought of the righteous and angry judgment of God against sin that He was about to shoulder.

And that judgment began when darkness fell over the earth at noon and Jesus cried out from the cross: "My God, my God! Why have You forsaken me?"
This is the one spot in the New Testament where Jesus addresses God as "God" instead of the usual "Father" he uses to celebrate Him. That sin he took upon himself? It shattered the perfect, eternal bond he shared with the Father. And in that moment, God was judging him for the sins of the entire world. God was judging Him for the murders, the human trafficking, the pedophilia, the drug dealing, 9/11—every single disgusting, vile thing we’ve ever done, including all those white lies and those little tax evasions... For all of it, Jesus had to settle the score. The violent lashes of righteous anger from God against those sins tore right through Him. In that moment, Jesus was truly experiencing hell—the total separation from the Father's face while facing God's wrath toward sin.

But then, just three hours later, Jesus cries out, "It is finished!" He drank the cup of God's wrath to the very last drop. Divine justice was satisfied. And finally, He turns back to the Father once more: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
His dead body was laid in a tomb, and after three days, God raised Him from the dead, proving once and for all that justice was fully served on that cross!

So the question for us is this: what are we going to do about our own sins?
Are we going to try to earn our way out through good deeds or some version of religion we made up for ourselves? Are we going to just ignore them? Or are we going to imagine God as some sweet, senile old grandpa who’ll just give us a little pat on the back...
Or are we actually going to admit it: if God really is holy and righteous, then our sin is so massive that it would drive us away from His presence. We have to admit we can't redeem ourselves. We have to hand the entire weight of our sin over to Jesus so He can pay it for us.

Is it really that simple?
When the Apostles were spreading this Good News, they told people to repent—which means turning away from their sins—and to believe.
God saw it all coming, and now, no one has to stand before the righteous judgment of God.
They don't *have* to, but unfortunately, plenty of people will end up standing before God with their sins because they were too proud to submit to Him and to His solution for humanity's greatest problem.

If you truly want God (and I mean the real God, not the fake image people manufacture in their heads) and if you want to be rid of the crushing weight of sin that makes you guilty before Him, God has already provided the answer. He showed such love that He gave His beloved Son to pay for your sin, to wipe away your guilt so you can have uninterrupted fellowship with Him through Jesus. But there is only one condition: you have to repent, turn away from your sin, and believe that Jesus truly died for you and paid your debt on that shameful cross.
silenthound4 silenthound4 Member
15 messages
joined Jan 2011
#86 ·
Spot on, Alex Ramos91. You hit the nail on the head—everything was covered perfectly, and you really nailed the topic.
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#87 ·
What kind of hellish willpower does it take to sit down and write something this long? Honestly, I’m still scratching my head over the whole "why" behind the death of Christ. I mean, how does one person actually pay the debt for someone else's sins? In any normal sense, redemption is just money you hand over to clear a tab—it's a transaction. But in the case of Christ, the ransom is his life itself... so, who exactly is collecting? Is it the Father? And if He takes this ransom, is He really not going to send people to hell? Even though, if we're being honest, most people probably deserve it.
silenthound4 silenthound4 Member
15 messages
joined Jan 2011
#88 ·
Benjamin Taylor6, look, the whole point of everything boils down to love. Jesus did it all because He loves us. It wasn't some forced obligation—if it had been, it wouldn't have been just, right? But He stepped up and said He wanted to settle the debt on our behalf, and He saw the path ahead and ACCEPTED it. That’s why God is love; He did this for us. And honestly, it isn't my will to write such a long-winded post, it's His.
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#89 ·
silenthound4 said:Benjamin Taylor6, look, the whole point of everything boils down to love. Jesus did it all because He loves us. It wasn't some forced obligation—if it had been, it wouldn't have been just, right? But He stepped up and said He wanted to settle the debt on our behalf, and He saw the path ahead and ACCEPTED it. That’s why God is love; He did this for us. And honestly, it isn't my will to write such a long-winded post, it's His.

So, Christ sacrificed Himself to wipe away the stain of original sin that humanity has been lugging around since Adam and Eve. Now, mind you, God could have handled this in a much less agonizing way—just a simple decree. Just like He wiped away original sin for the Virgin Mary by divine decree, He could have done the same for all of mankind. But He didn't. Instead, He chose the harder road: the sacrifice of His own Son.
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#90 ·
Benjamin Taylor6 said:What kind of hellish willpower does it take to sit down and write something this long? Honestly, I’m still scratching my head over the whole "why" behind the death of Christ. I mean, how does one person actually pay the debt for someone else's sins? In any normal sense, redemption is just money you hand over to clear a tab—it's a transaction. But in the case of Christ, the ransom is his life itself... so, who exactly is collecting? Is it the Father? And if He takes this ransom, is He really not going to send people to hell? Even though, if we're being honest, most people probably deserve it.

It was even longer originally, so I had to trim it down... 😁 Basically, I posted this once on another forum, and it felt like a perfect fit for this thread since it hits the nail right on the head.

In the economy of heaven, life itself is the ransom. God’s justice demands that sin be punished. He gave the Americans a preview of this by requiring them to sacrifice a lamb for their sins; it was meant to prepare them to recognize when the true sacrifice for sin—the Lamb of God—would offer His own perfect life to God in place of everyone else.

Plus, this substitutionary sacrifice shuts Satan right up. He’s constantly pointing at God's law, demanding that sin be punished immediately—not because he cares about justice, but because he hates people. God's love for them drives him crazy, so he just wants them dead. But now, for those who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice, there's no legal ground left for him to accuse them before God.🙂

Look, I can't claim to fully wrap my head around this sacrifice. I'll probably spend the rest of eternity trying to figure it all out. 😍
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#91 ·
silenthound4 said:Benjamin Taylor6, look, the whole point of everything boils down to love. Jesus did it all because He loves us. It wasn't some forced obligation—if it had been, it wouldn't have been just, right? But He stepped up and said He wanted to settle the debt on our behalf, and He saw the path ahead and ACCEPTED it. That’s why God is love; He did this for us. And honestly, it isn't my will to write such a long-winded post, it's His.

True, but you're missing the full picture...

Look, Romans 3 says:(21) But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, testified to by the Law and the Prophets; (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, for all who believe. There is no distinction! (23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; (24) they are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (25) God presented Him as a means of atonement through His blood, to be received through faith. He intended to demonstrate His righteousness by passing over former sins in His divine forbearance; (26) to demonstrate His righteousness in the present age— so that He might be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

When God let people get away with things in the past—take David, for example, who committed adultery and then had a man killed—it makes it look like God isn't actually just... like he’s just letting stuff slide without any real judgment...

But through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, God proved He *is* just. Those sins that seemed swept under the rug back in the OT—where it looked like He was risking His own reputation by being lenient—weren't just ignored. He laid them squarely on His Son. He settled the score with that sin once and for all, simultaneously exalting both His Righteousness and His Love for humanity.😍
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#92 ·
Benjamin Taylor6 said:So, Christ sacrificed Himself to wipe away the stain of original sin that humanity has been lugging around since Adam and Eve. Now, mind you, God could have handled this in a much less agonizing way—just a simple decree. Just like He wiped away original sin for the Virgin Mary by divine decree, He could have done the same for all of mankind. But He didn't. Instead, He chose the harder road: the sacrifice of His own Son.

Forget original sin... He died for my personal sins...
He couldn't just use a decree because that’s simply not how He operates. Everything that seemed to happen in the OT (go read my last post if you need a refresher) was ultimately settled on the cross.

If it had been a mere decree, then Satan would actually have a leg to stand on. He’d be like, "Hold on a second... I get a little cocky and try to act like God, and then I look at these thieves and rebels out here doing whatever they want, and You just hand out forgiveness like candy?"

Besides, this whole divine path is exactly what makes any hopeless sinner stop and stare in awe. It’s why we praise and worship God—because when you realize the sheer scale of His love and forgiveness, you can't help it. 😍
Gregory Jackson Gregory Jackson Active Member
152 messages
joined Apr 2022
#93 ·
Alex Ramos91 said:@benizg
Picture this scenario:
George, a decent family man, heads home after an exhausting day at work. He’s just looking forward to some peace and quiet with his family to recharge from all the stress. He’s already thinking about grabbing a burger with his son on the way in.
But when he walks through the door, he finds the front door wide open and a window smashed. He rushes inside, and what he sees is absolutely gut-wrenching.
His son is lying in a pool of blood, and a robber is struggling with his wife.
Driven by pure adrenaline, George jumps the attacker and takes him down. The police show up and haul the guy off to jail.
After some time passes, the robber goes to trial. He confesses to everything, and the judge hands down the verdict:
"The facts are clear: you committed murder and robbery out of pure greed. According to the law, you deserve the harshest sentence possible—the death penalty.
However, since you seem genuinely remorseful, and because I am a merciful judge full of love, I’m dropping all charges. You're free to go."

Was that a fair trial? What would George think about that?
George tells the reporters, "This is a total joke! We’re filing an appeal with the Supreme Court immediately. There’s a judge sitting on that bench who is more crooked than the criminal who murdered my son!" 😠

So, where does justice stand? 😕

It’s obvious to anyone watching this fake scenario that the verdict is a sham. That judge isn't being just, and he isn't being merciful or loving (even if he claims he is).

But here’s the kicker: many people believe that God is exactly like that kind of judge!
At least when it comes to judging them personally, or perhaps someone they loved dearly who passed away recently.

Someone might argue, "But doesn't the Bible say that God is love?"
Sure, He is. But God is also holy and just, and His love can't be unjust, unlike that ridiculous judge in our story. The Bible also explicitly states that God detests those who justify the wicked and those who condemn the righteous.
Because God cannot be unjust—meaning He is always perfectly consistent with His own character—He must judge anyone who violates His law, whether it’s a "minor" slip-up (like something you or I might do) or a massive atrocity (like a neighbor's crime or even Hitler).

Back in Eden, Adam and Eve only needed one sin (and it didn't even seem that huge at the time) to be kicked out of Paradise and cut off from God's presence.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, which is a spiritual law consistent with God's righteous nature. And I'm not talking about physical death—Adam and Eve didn't drop dead that very day—I'm talking about spiritual death: eternal separation from God and His love and grace.

Throughout our lives, we all rack up a mountain of small and large sins. If we compare ourselves to our neighbors, we might feel like we're doing okay. But a righteous God can't just overlook our failures or sweep them under the rug. As Abraham once asked God: "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)
Isaiah, who was arguably one of the most upright and holy men of his era, stood before God's throne in a vision and cried out in desperation: "Woe is me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Armies!" (Isaiah 6:5)
Even a man who lived a life of peak morality and spent his mission calling out injustice, when faced with God's holiness, realized the first thing: that he himself was a sinner before God and subject to His righteous judgment.

If that's the case for someone like Isaiah, do you or I stand any chance before a God like that?
Does God's holiness and righteousness leave any room for His love? 😕

In this seemingly impossible situation, God, in His love, provided a solution. And it's a solution that will magnify both of those traits to an unimaginable scale.

Jesus, the Son of God, came from the pure and holy heavens down to this filthy, fallen planet—right into the middle of people who aren't even looking for Him, people who are actively rebelling against Him and trying to wash their consciences clean with "good deeds."
He was the pure and holy King, yet He was born into the absolute depths of poverty in a cave surrounded by livestock, part of a struggling provincial family with the social stigma of nobody knowing who His father was.
For thirty years, He was obedient to His imperfect earthly parents because He wanted to do His Father’s will.
Then He stepped into public life, doing good and teaching people how to live right.
He hung out with the very people society looked down on: tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers.
He never chased fame or cared about what people thought of Him. When they tried to crown Him, He just walked away.
Whenever He healed someone or pulled off a miracle, He made sure nobody found out, because He didn't want to be known just for those things.
In the end, His close friend betrays Him, everyone else abandons Him, and they all pretend they never even knew Him.
He gets hit with false accusations, an unfair trial, mockery, beatings... and He dies the most brutal and shameful death possible for that era—hanging on a Roman cross.

What does any of that have to do with God's righteousness or His love?
Think about it: Jesus, the only man to ever walk this earth without sin, dies the most agonizing death imaginable. Was that just some freak accident that messed up God's plan?

Just a day or two before He is killed, Jesus knows exactly what's coming, and He says this: "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow, what can I say? Father, will You take this hour from me? No, because that is why I came! Father, glorify Your name!" (John 12:27)
Jesus came to this world specifically for that death on the cross.
The night before He is arrested, He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane at the foot of the Mount of Olives. He was shaking like a leaf, pleading desperately with the Father, until the sweat on His forehead turned to blood. He prayed: "Father! If it is Your will, take this cup from me. But not my will, but Yours be done!" (Luke 22:42)
But the Father's will was for Him to take that path, and He accepted it without complaining or wanting revenge on the people who were going to crucify Him.

But there is something deeply strange here.
Why on earth would Jesus, the Son of God, be trembling like a weakling when facing physical death on a cross?🤷
I mean, thousands upon thousands of Christians in the centuries that followed went to Roman crosses or faced lions in arenas with songs on their lips, yet here is the very source of their salvation, shaking like a total coward in front of the cross.

So, what was actually inside that cup the Father offered His Son to drink to the dregs?

Here are just two examples where God's cup is mentioned and what it contains:
"For in the hand of Yahweh is a cup overflowing with wine, spiced with aromatic herbs; He feeds from it, and all the wicked of the earth will drain it to the dregs." (Psalm 75:9)
"...they shall drink the wine of God's wrath, undiluted, poured into the cup of His fury!" (Revelation 14:10)

When Peter stood up to defend Him with a sword against the soldiers coming to arrest Him along with Judas, Jesus tells him:
"Put your sword away! Should I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" (John 18:11)

That cup of righteous, divine anger against sin and those who commit it—that was what was handed to Jesus.
He, the only one who was sinless, always pure and holy, had to take my sins and yours upon Himself. He had to face not just Pontius Pilate or the Jewish Sanhedrin, but the holy, righteous, and almighty God, who must judge sin according to justice—with death!
Jesus wasn't afraid in the Garden of Gethsemane of Judas, or the Romans, or being whipped, or the nails, or the wooden cross... He was trembling at the thought of the righteous and angry judgment of God against sin that He was about to shoulder.

And that judgment began when darkness fell over the earth at noon and Jesus cried out from the cross: "My God, my God! Why have You forsaken me?"
This is the one spot in the New Testament where Jesus addresses God as "God" instead of the usual "Father" he uses to celebrate Him. That sin he took upon himself? It shattered the perfect, eternal bond he shared with the Father. And in that moment, God was judging him for the sins of the entire world. God was judging Him for the murders, the human trafficking, the pedophilia, the drug dealing, 9/11—every single disgusting, vile thing we’ve ever done, including all those white lies and those little tax evasions... For all of it, Jesus had to settle the score. The violent lashes of righteous anger from God against those sins tore right through Him. In that moment, Jesus was truly experiencing hell—the total separation from the Father's face while facing God's wrath toward sin.

But then, just three hours later, Jesus cries out, "It is finished!" He drank the cup of God's wrath to the very last drop. Divine justice was satisfied. And finally, He turns back to the Father once more: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
His dead body was laid in a tomb, and after three days, God raised Him from the dead, proving once and for all that justice was fully served on that cross!

So the question for us is this: what are we going to do about our own sins?
Are we going to try to earn our way out through good deeds or some version of religion we made up for ourselves? Are we going to just ignore them? Or are we going to imagine God as some sweet, senile old grandpa who’ll just give us a little pat on the back...
Or are we actually going to admit it: if God really is holy and righteous, then our sin is so massive that it would drive us away from His presence. We have to admit we can't redeem ourselves. We have to hand the entire weight of our sin over to Jesus so He can pay it for us.

Is it really that simple?
When the Apostles were spreading this Good News, they told people to repent—which means turning away from their sins—and to believe.
God saw it all coming, and now, no one has to stand before the righteous judgment of God.
They don't *have* to, but unfortunately, plenty of people will end up standing before God with their sins because they were too proud to submit to Him and to His solution for humanity's greatest problem.

If you truly want God (and I mean the real God, not the fake image people manufacture in their heads) and if you want to be rid of the crushing weight of sin that makes you guilty before Him, God has already provided the answer. He showed such love that He gave His beloved Son to pay for your sin, to wipe away your guilt so you can have uninterrupted fellowship with Him through Jesus. But there is only one condition: you have to repent, turn away from your sin, and believe that Jesus truly died for you and paid your debt on that shameful cross.

But, honestly, maybe it didn't even go down quite like that, even though Matthew 27:46 says so, since there are these contradictions in the Gospels. I mean, he had the high priests from the Sanhedrin up there on the cross with him—the same guys who sentenced him—along with Caiaphas, all mocking him. And back then, Jesus spoke in Aramaic:

Vmar Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani


My God, my God, why have you abandoned me within them?

I think it's super important to understand the context behind this statement, because it confuses so many people; it makes it look like God just ditched His own son on the cross, which doesn't make any sense at all.
mistygull16 mistygull16 Active Member
199 messages
joined May 2013
#94 ·
Alex Ramos91 said:Forget original sin... He died for my personal sins...
He couldn't just use a decree because that’s simply not how He operates. Everything that seemed to happen in the OT (go read my last post if you need a refresher) was ultimately settled on the cross.

If it had been a mere decree, then Satan would actually have a leg to stand on. He’d be like, "Hold on a second... I get a little cocky and try to act like God, and then I look at these thieves and rebels out here doing whatever they want, and You just hand out forgiveness like candy?"

Besides, this whole divine path is exactly what makes any hopeless sinner stop and stare in awe. It’s why we praise and worship God—because when you realize the sheer scale of His love and forgiveness, you can't help it. 😍

But honestly, if I start saying "wait a second," like how kids in starving parts of Africa die, or kids in pediatric wards back home... you aren't really convincing me that theory holds any water. People say Satan is the root of all evil, but he doesn't exactly seem to be getting punished much either. And those kids being punished for someone else's mistakes? That whole concept feels pretty far from a God of justice.
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#95 ·
Gregory Jackson said:But, honestly, maybe it didn't even go down quite like that, even though Matthew 27:46 says so, since there are these contradictions in the Gospels. I mean, he had the high priests from the Sanhedrin up there on the cross with him—the same guys who sentenced him—along with Caiaphas, all mocking him. And back then, Jesus spoke in Aramaic:

Vmar Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani


My God, my God, why have you abandoned me within them?

I think it's super important to understand the context behind this statement, because it confuses so many people; it makes it look like God just ditched His own son on the cross, which doesn't make any sense at all.

Where on earth did you get this Vmar thing? 😕

I’ve been digging through the Greek interlinears and I can't find it anywhere—not in Matthew http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/mat27.pdf
nor in Mark http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/mar15.pdf
Alex Ramos91 Alex Ramos91 Member
30 messages
joined Jan 2011
#96 ·
mistygull16 said:But honestly, if I start saying "wait a second," like how kids in starving parts of Africa die, or kids in pediatric wards back home... you aren't really convincing me that theory holds any water. People say Satan is the root of all evil, but he doesn't exactly seem to be getting punished much either. And those kids being punished for someone else's mistakes? That whole concept feels pretty far from a God of justice.

Look, Satan is already under judgment; he’s just waiting on his final sentencing.

And let’s be real, Jesus' sacrifice hasn't globally established justice just yet... its full implementation (which, again, is rooted in the cross) is still pending until Jesus returns:According to His promise, we are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:13)
Paul Kern12 Paul Kern12 Active Member
106 messages
joined Feb 2018
#97 ·
mistygull16 said:But honestly, if I start saying "wait a second," like how kids in starving parts of Africa die, or kids in pediatric wards back home... you aren't really convincing me that theory holds any water. People say Satan is the root of all evil, but he doesn't exactly seem to be getting punished much either. And those kids being punished for someone else's mistakes? That whole concept feels pretty far from a God of justice.

Let’s wait until the game is over before we decide... by the way, hungry children in Africa are a disgrace to humanity, not to God.
velvetmaker39 velvetmaker39 Member
31 messages
joined Jan 2011
#98 ·
mistygull16 said:I'm with you there, if we're talking reincarnation! 👍

But honestly, I'm curious what everyone else thinks, specifically those who don't believe they existed before this life, yet still feel like they’ve been forgiven 🤷 for something.

I mean, if I went to some judge today to thank him for forgiving a $4,000 debt (roughly what the national debt would be per person if you split it up)that'd be pretty stupid, but if I actually committed a crime, ended up in prison, finally saw the light, repented, and started acting right, then getting a pardon to cut my sentence in half? Yeah, I'd definitely be grateful for that pardon if I actually did something wrong.

"Two bad guys decide to team up and just do whatever they want, figuring they'll be forgiven later, and they accept that logic. Then a second bad guy joins in, agreeing to follow their lead once the forgiveness comes. What do you think—which one of them was the first to turn good, eventually becoming even more righteous than Jesus himself?"
velvetmaker39 velvetmaker39 Member
31 messages
joined Jan 2011
#99 ·
If it weren't for this whole dogma surrounding forgiveness, maybe the world would actually be a paradise right now—two thousand years after the man who gave His life so we could all be forgiven. Instead, we just ended up with people twisting that very sacrifice to serve their own selfish interests. It’s what Orwell saw through, isn't it? He captured it perfectly in *Animal Farm*, a book that remains just as relevant for every society today as it was when he penned it.
velvetmaker39 velvetmaker39 Member
31 messages
joined Jan 2011
#100 ·
Alex Ramos91 said:Look, Satan is already under judgment; he’s just waiting on his final sentencing.

And let’s be real, Jesus' sacrifice hasn't globally established justice just yet... its full implementation (which, again, is rooted in the cross) is still pending until Jesus returns:According to His promise, we are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:13)

Jesus is always right here with us, it's just that
those who don't want to see it simply refuse to acknowledge Him.

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