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Did the brawl in paradise actually happen?

Started by silentpilot6 · · 👁 12 views · 257 replies

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Participants silentpilot6Alex Patel96Carl Anderson76James Ramirez10quietseal2Rebecca Bennett41crimsonhound80John Parker5Casey WilliamsRoger RodriguezMorgan Cooper34wearyhawk83Michael Ortiz5Carol Young3Casey Wright4Hannah White2Ryan Morris15Kyle Lee7Matthew Morales17Matthew Moore13redharbor9Lawrence Wilson35silverpuma542Scott Miller7 …
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#121 ·
they aren't being offered any real alternatives, and honestly, most of them don't have a clue how to actually raise kids properly.

They totally do, though. I mean, we’re living in the 21st century—information is literally everywhere if you look for it. The thing is, people just aren't interested. They couldn't care less. It’s way easier to just lash out and start hitting someone than it is to actually sit down, read a book, or try to educate yourself.
hollowtrucker77 hollowtrucker77 Regular
681 messages
joined Nov 2007
#122 ·
I’ve never been a fan of this whole "us versus them" mentality where everyone is just digging their heels in on both sides
people love to act like they’re holding the moral high ground by using these tired old cliches, you know, talking about how someone is "always beating" a kid or "never laying a hand" on them to prove they’re right
personally, I think both of those extremes miss the mark entirely
if you want my take, in maybe 95% of situations, physical discipline isn't necessary, but there’s that remaining 5% where it actually becomes relevant, simply because sometimes it’s the only way to make the rules stick
it’s perfectly fine for a child to understand they have some freedom, that they can ask questions or even try to negotiate, but they also need to realize there comes a moment where the bargaining ends and they just have to listen
plus, let’s be real, some kids actually respond well to being told "no," while others just get more defiant and start acting out specifically because they were restricted
kids aren't carbon copies of one another, and parents aren't always the sole reason behind a child's behavior—it's not always 100% on them
look, I’m not advocating for hitting kids for fun, but I am leaving the door open to the idea that physical discipline might be needed, and in those specific instances, I truly believe it serves as an extension of parental authority rather than falling into the category of violence or terror
Hannah White2 Hannah White2 Active Member
135 messages
joined Oct 2011
#123 ·
Scott Miller7 said:Glad you're having fun with it. I'm not calling you out, though. Since you started this thread, you might as well share what actually motivated you to bring it up.😁

.. I’d love to see what all those "I don't have kids, but I would never hit my own child under any circumstances" types will do when their little golden child eventually pulls the same crap after 25 rounds of explanations and lectures... Will they try a 26th explanation, or finally reach for the belt?

Long before I had kids, I insisted I'd never hit them. Everyone laughed and said I'd see about that once I actually had some. Now they've seen it, and they're basically saying, "Well, you got lucky."😁
Besides, before I became a parent, I spent time caring for two kids who most people would label as absolute nightmares. I never laid a hand on them, and you could see a positive shift in their behavior within a week. People underestimate how much consistency, honesty, positive reinforcement, and actual attention mean to a kid.

Then there's this idea that kids today are impossible—worse and more spoiled than previous generations. Even if we assume that's true, kids in most American families still get beaten, and clearly, that isn't helping anything.

The issue is that children's rights are usually misinterpreted, and they rarely come with a discussion about responsibilities. You can't have rights without obligations. Parents constantly hear that they shouldn't hit their kids, but they aren't given any real alternatives, so many end up clueless when it comes to discipline. While I think parenting should be driven by instinct and common sense, it's obvious very few people actually know how to handle it. That's why mandatory parenting classes seem like a necessity.😁

The thing is, people treat having kids like it's just some automatic milestone or a standard accessory to marriage—not to mention all the unplanned pregnancies out there.
But listen, if you don't have solid upbringing, you don't have a healthy society, and the family is the bedrock of everything we have here.
I'm telling you, offering a maternity stipend only after someone completes a course... that's the easy fix.
Lawrence Wilson35 Lawrence Wilson35 Member
32 messages
joined Jul 2009
#124 ·
From my experience, when people claim today's kids are "troublemakers," they’re really just trying to justify their own outdated parenting styles.
Beyond that, these same individuals believe everyone should strictly adhere to social norms. They label anyone who deviates—which, fortunately, describes more and more kids these days—as "disobedient."
Every single day, I thank God that there are more of these "troublemakers" out there.
Why? Because these children actually know how to stand their ground. They respect their own boundaries, they take responsibility for themselves by clearly stating what they need, and they hold others accountable by speaking up when something isn't right. They refuse to swallow nonsense just because society claims it's the "proper" way to act.
Just because a behavior is conventional doesn't mean it's correct.

I’m actually glad today's youth are teaching us this. They are opening our eyes and forcing us to finally think for ourselves.
They push our boundaries, forcing us to learn how to live not just so they can be happier, but so we can be happier too.
Calling children "bad" is simply a way to silence them.👎
Hannah White2 Hannah White2 Active Member
135 messages
joined Oct 2011
#125 ·
hollowtrucker77 said:I’ve never been a fan of this whole "us versus them" mentality where everyone is just digging their heels in on both sides
people love to act like they’re holding the moral high ground by using these tired old cliches, you know, talking about how someone is "always beating" a kid or "never laying a hand" on them to prove they’re right
personally, I think both of those extremes miss the mark entirely
if you want my take, in maybe 95% of situations, physical discipline isn't necessary, but there’s that remaining 5% where it actually becomes relevant, simply because sometimes it’s the only way to make the rules stick
it’s perfectly fine for a child to understand they have some freedom, that they can ask questions or even try to negotiate, but they also need to realize there comes a moment where the bargaining ends and they just have to listen
plus, let’s be real, some kids actually respond well to being told "no," while others just get more defiant and start acting out specifically because they were restricted
kids aren't carbon copies of one another, and parents aren't always the sole reason behind a child's behavior—it's not always 100% on them
look, I’m not advocating for hitting kids for fun, but I am leaving the door open to the idea that physical discipline might be needed, and in those specific instances, I truly believe it serves as an extension of parental authority rather than falling into the category of violence or terror

Personally, I’d say there’s maybe a 5% chance that Israel goes nuclear on Iran, mostly because nukes are just the logical next step in modern warfare.
Physical force should only be used if you have to grab a kid before they bolt into traffic, or maybe if they're actively hitting another kid—but using it to "teach them a lesson" about how pain works? That’s just some mindless, low-IQ nonsense that's basically responsible for all the mess we're dealing with in society today...
Lawrence Wilson35 Lawrence Wilson35 Member
32 messages
joined Jul 2009
#126 ·
Speaking from my own experience, I have dealt with plenty of interactions involving children.
Anything can happen, and I’ve seen just about everything.
I firmly believe that treating people with equal dignity—essentially respecting yourself as much as you respect others—can resolve any conflict, absolutely any of them.
Hitting someone is a failure of respect toward both oneself and others.
There is simply no excuse for it. Every single person deserves dignity: regardless of whether they are big or small, Black, White, or Asian; healthy or sick; wealthy or poor; educated or uneducated; men or women...
Scott Miller7 Scott Miller7 Member
13 messages
joined Jun 2009
#127 ·
Carl Anderson76 said:
they aren't being offered any real alternatives, and honestly, most of them don't have a clue how to actually raise kids properly.

They totally do, though. I mean, we’re living in the 21st century—information is literally everywhere if you look for it. The thing is, people just aren't interested. They couldn't care less. It’s way easier to just lash out and start hitting someone than it is to actually sit down, read a book, or try to educate yourself.

Fair point, so how about this:
Scott Miller7 said:Glad you're having fun with it. I'm not calling you out, though. Since you started this thread, you might as well share what actually motivated you to bring it up.😁

.. I’d love to see what all those "I don't have kids, but I would never hit my own child under any circumstances" types will do when their little golden child eventually pulls the same crap after 25 rounds of explanations and lectures... Will they try a 26th explanation, or finally reach for the belt?

Long before I had kids, I insisted I'd never hit them. Everyone laughed and said I'd see about that once I actually had some. Now they've seen it, and they're basically saying, "Well, you got lucky."😁
Besides, before I became a parent, I spent time caring for two kids who most people would label as absolute nightmares. I never laid a hand on them, and you could see a positive shift in their behavior within a week. People underestimate how much consistency, honesty, positive reinforcement, and actual attention mean to a kid.

Then there's this idea that kids today are impossible—worse and more spoiled than previous generations. Even if we assume that's true, kids in most American families still get beaten, and clearly, that isn't helping anything.

The issue is that children's rights are usually misinterpreted, and they rarely come with a discussion about responsibilities. You can't have rights without obligations. Parents constantly hear that they shouldn't hit their kids, but they aren't given any real alternatives, so many end up clueless when it comes to discipline. While I think parenting should be driven by instinct and common sense, it's obvious very few people actually know how to handle it. That's why mandatory parenting classes seem like a necessity.😁

Hannah White2 said:The thing is, people treat having kids like it's just some automatic milestone or a standard accessory to marriage—not to mention all the unplanned pregnancies out there.
But listen, if you don't have solid upbringing, you don't have a healthy society, and the family is the bedrock of everything we have here.
I'm telling you, offering a maternity stipend only after someone completes a course... that's the easy fix.

hollowtrucker77 said:I’ve never been a fan of this whole "us versus them" mentality where everyone is just digging their heels in on both sides
people love to act like they’re holding the moral high ground by using these tired old cliches, you know, talking about how someone is "always beating" a kid or "never laying a hand" on them to prove they’re right
personally, I think both of those extremes miss the mark entirely
if you want my take, in maybe 95% of situations, physical discipline isn't necessary, but there’s that remaining 5% where it actually becomes relevant, simply because sometimes it’s the only way to make the rules stick
it’s perfectly fine for a child to understand they have some freedom, that they can ask questions or even try to negotiate, but they also need to realize there comes a moment where the bargaining ends and they just have to listen
plus, let’s be real, some kids actually respond well to being told "no," while others just get more defiant and start acting out specifically because they were restricted
kids aren't carbon copies of one another, and parents aren't always the sole reason behind a child's behavior—it's not always 100% on them
look, I’m not advocating for hitting kids for fun, but I am leaving the door open to the idea that physical discipline might be needed, and in those specific instances, I truly believe it serves as an extension of parental authority rather than falling into the category of violence or terror

Can someone give me an example of that 5% where hitting a kid is supposedly good? Why is it fine then, but bad other times?
Lawrence Wilson35 Lawrence Wilson35 Member
32 messages
joined Jul 2009
#128 ·
Hannah White2 said:Personally, I’d say there’s maybe a 5% chance that Israel goes nuclear on Iran, mostly because nukes are just the logical next step in modern warfare.
Physical force should only be used if you have to grab a kid before they bolt into traffic, or maybe if they're actively hitting another kid—but using it to "teach them a lesson" about how pain works? That’s just some mindless, low-IQ nonsense that's basically responsible for all the mess we're dealing with in society today...

Exactly: if they run into the street, you grab them.
if they hit another kid, you catch their hand.
if they touch an outlet, you install safety covers.
etc., etc.
Parents should use their strength—but not to strike!
hollowtrucker77 hollowtrucker77 Regular
681 messages
joined Nov 2007
#129 ·
Scott Miller7, I think you can probably picture some of those scenarios in your head yourself
🙂
Look, folks, the world isn't going to suddenly turn into some utopia just because we decide to romanticize it, and unfortunately, there’s always going to be some mess or situation popping up that refuses to fit neatly into our little idealized boxes
Then you have the people who are simply impossible to reason with, and you have children who just can't grasp certain concepts—or kids you can't quite nudge away from doing something dangerous to themselves or everyone else using any standard approach
There are certain behaviors out there that just aren't acceptable, things that need to be nipped in the bud immediately, primarily for the sake of what's actually good for the child
It pains me a bit to say things that might be unpopular or that you’d rather I just kept to myself, but frankly, that doesn't change the reality of the situation
Scott Miller7 Scott Miller7 Member
13 messages
joined Jun 2009
#130 ·
hollowtrucker77 said:Scott Miller7, I think you can probably picture some of those scenarios in your head yourself
🙂
Look, folks, the world isn't going to suddenly turn into some utopia just because we decide to romanticize it, and unfortunately, there’s always going to be some mess or situation popping up that refuses to fit neatly into our little idealized boxes
Then you have the people who are simply impossible to reason with, and you have children who just can't grasp certain concepts—or kids you can't quite nudge away from doing something dangerous to themselves or everyone else using any standard approach
There are certain behaviors out there that just aren't acceptable, things that need to be nipped in the bud immediately, primarily for the sake of what's actually good for the child
It pains me a bit to say things that might be unpopular or that you’d rather I just kept to myself, but frankly, that doesn't change the reality of the situation

That’s why I’m asking. I’ve worked with "impossible" kids before, and I didn't hit them. I get that we're all human and nobody has nerves of steel, but I still don't see any logical reason why hitting a child is actually helpful or welcome.🤷
Lawrence Wilson35 Lawrence Wilson35 Member
32 messages
joined Jul 2009
#131 ·
Scott Miller7 said:That’s why I’m asking. I’ve worked with "impossible" kids before, and I didn't hit them. I get that we're all human and nobody has nerves of steel, but I still don't see any logical reason why hitting a child is actually helpful or welcome.🤷

We’re coming from the exact same place here, and I want to know the same thing: where exactly is hitting kids useful?
I would love for someone to provide one concrete example.
And if no one objects, I'll be happy to offer an alternative.🙂
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#132 ·
There are certain kids where you just can't sit them down and explain things or try to use some softer approach to get them to stop doing stuff that’s genuinely dangerous for themselves or everyone else.
Some behaviors just aren't okay, and you've gotta nip them in the bud right away—mostly for the kid's own good, too.
I know I'm probably going to get some heat for saying something unpopular that nobody wants to hear, but hey, facts are facts.

That's not quite right. Some parents just don't know how to communicate, and yeah, easier ways out exist—like physical punishment—but let's be real: being a parent is hard work by definition. Just looking for a shortcut is honestly a bit absurd. If you don't have the patience or the drive to put in the work using better, healthier, more constructive, and LONG-TERM methods, then maybe you shouldn't be having kids in the first place.
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#133 ·
Honestly, some parents just don't seem to care about what's actually good for their kids. If they really did, they’d stop and ask themselves if hitting a child is even productive instead of being so incredibly rigid about it. They act like they're God, thinking they have all the answers. And heaven forbid they actually admit they might be wrong—even when they know deep down they're off base. It really just comes down to pure ego, a total lack of patience, and a complete disregard for Life itself.
Lawrence Wilson35 Lawrence Wilson35 Member
32 messages
joined Jul 2009
#134 ·
Carl Anderson76 said:
There are certain kids where you just can't sit them down and explain things or try to use some softer approach to get them to stop doing stuff that’s genuinely dangerous for themselves or everyone else.
Some behaviors just aren't okay, and you've gotta nip them in the bud right away—mostly for the kid's own good, too.
I know I'm probably going to get some heat for saying something unpopular that nobody wants to hear, but hey, facts are facts.

That's not quite right. Some parents just don't know how to communicate, and yeah, easier ways out exist—like physical punishment—but let's be real: being a parent is hard work by definition. Just looking for a shortcut is honestly a bit absurd. If you don't have the patience or the drive to put in the work using better, healthier, more constructive, and LONG-TERM methods, then maybe you shouldn't be having kids in the first place.

I agree, and I’ll go a step further:
it seems to me that parents who resort to those "shortcuts" believe their children—and they themselves—aren't worth the effort.
True family happiness depends on the well-being of every single member.
No one is happy when there is hitting involved: neither the parents nor the kids.
Let's actually work toward our own happiness, because we are all worth the effort!
Matthew Morales17 Matthew Morales17 Member
38 messages
joined May 2009
#135 ·
Carl Anderson76 said:
On the flip side, kids back in the day were always getting a bit of corporal punishment, so I haven't really noticed "older generations" turning out to be psychopaths, bullies, people who can't stand their parents, or just totally traumatized... at least nothing worse than "kids today." From what I hear from folks working in schools (I know a few teachers) and from parents dealing with the current generation, things seem way more intense now. Why is that? , was it physical discipline or the complete lack thereof? I don't know, but it would be interesting to run some kind of study to see which kids are actually "worse"... the ones who occasionally got a belt, or the ones being raised with completely different methods regardless of how much trouble they get into.

Why say "nothing worse"? Because we aren't getting hit nearly as much anymore. A friend of mine, she's 17, took a hit at school and showed up the next day with bruised hips! Not to mention her back, her arms... her face stayed fine, so if she hadn't said anything, nobody would have even known. That’s what parents do nowadays. They do the exact same thing, they just hide it so they don't get in trouble. Back when we were thirty or twenty of us in a class, we all got disciplined. 🙄
And the reason kids today seem worse is because they're being raised by parents who are mentally unstable because their own parents were abused to such an extent . Just imagine what it's like for the kids in this current generation.

Wait, are you serious right now? You actually saw this and heard this firsthand from friends at school? That is absolutely chilling!👎
Ryan Morris15 Ryan Morris15 Active Member
54 messages
joined Jul 2009
#136 ·
Carl Anderson76 said:
On the flip side, kids back in the day were always getting a bit of corporal punishment, so I haven't really noticed "older generations" turning out to be psychopaths, bullies, people who can't stand their parents, or just totally traumatized... at least nothing worse than "kids today." From what I hear from folks working in schools (I know a few teachers) and from parents dealing with the current generation, things seem way more intense now. Why is that? , was it physical discipline or the complete lack thereof? I don't know, but it would be interesting to run some kind of study to see which kids are actually "worse"... the ones who occasionally got a belt, or the ones being raised with completely different methods regardless of how much trouble they get into.

Why say "nothing worse"? Because we aren't getting hit nearly as much anymore. A friend of mine, she's 17, took a hit at school and showed up the next day with bruised hips! Not to mention her back, her arms... her face stayed fine, so if she hadn't said anything, nobody would have even known. That’s what parents do nowadays. They do the exact same thing, they just hide it so they don't get in trouble. Back when we were thirty or twenty of us in a class, we all got disciplined. 🙄
And the reason kids today seem worse is because they're being raised by parents who are mentally unstable because their own parents were abused to such an extent . Just imagine what it's like for the kids in this current generation.


I find this quite difficult to wrap my head around.
I suppose by "us thirty" you mean an entire classroom, and while I might believe you if you said twenty of you were wandering the city on weekends, the idea that twenty sets of parents are all handing out beatings... well, I suspect our society isn't quite at that stage yet.
Matthew Morales17 Matthew Morales17 Member
38 messages
joined May 2009
#137 ·
hollowtrucker77 said:I’ve never been a fan of this whole "us versus them" mentality where everyone is just digging their heels in on both sides
people love to act like they’re holding the moral high ground by using these tired old cliches, you know, talking about how someone is "always beating" a kid or "never laying a hand" on them to prove they’re right
personally, I think both of those extremes miss the mark entirely
if you want my take, in maybe 95% of situations, physical discipline isn't necessary, but there’s that remaining 5% where it actually becomes relevant, simply because sometimes it’s the only way to make the rules stick
it’s perfectly fine for a child to understand they have some freedom, that they can ask questions or even try to negotiate, but they also need to realize there comes a moment where the bargaining ends and they just have to listen
plus, let’s be real, some kids actually respond well to being told "no," while others just get more defiant and start acting out specifically because they were restricted
kids aren't carbon copies of one another, and parents aren't always the sole reason behind a child's behavior—it's not always 100% on them
look, I’m not advocating for hitting kids for fun, but I am leaving the door open to the idea that physical discipline might be needed, and in those specific instances, I truly believe it serves as an extension of parental authority rather than falling into the category of violence or terror

I don't know about all that; I have a 20-year-old daughter (which means she's been in those peak "difficult" years for about six years now!) and I have never once found a single reason to lay a hand on her or hit her. Just the thought of it makes me feel sick! If I ever thought about hitting my daughter—or my wife, for that matter—I think I'd basically be committing harakiri, wouldn't I?! And we're talking about two totally different personalities here. My wife comes from a very traditional background, whereas my daughter is... well, she's my blood. She doesn't back down, she loves to debate, she can be quite demanding financially, she's high-energy, and sometimes she acts like she couldn't care less what I think! But I've always taught her to respect herself and never let anyone walk over her. Not anyone, not even me. When we're arguing, she'll often throw it back at me, saying, "Well, you're the one who taught me to be like this!" Ha! Honestly, she did. I just sit there, listen, and smile to myself because I'm actually proud that she learned that lesson and won't let just anyone mess with her—not even her old man. What do you mean, 5%?! Man, that's love! You don't hit the people you love; you hold them close and protect them. Just remember that! 👍
P.S. There are some truly terrible kids out there, and I think that's what you're referring to. But honestly, just look at who their parents are and you'll change your mind instantly. When you see how some of these clueless parents act, you realize how lucky those kids are to be well-behaved!
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#138 ·
Ryan Morris15 said:I find this quite difficult to wrap my head around.
I suppose by "us thirty" you mean an entire classroom, and while I might believe you if you said twenty of you were wandering the city on weekends, the idea that twenty sets of parents are all handing out beatings... well, I suspect our society isn't quite at that stage yet.

There are 26 of us total, though the ratio is somewhere in that ballpark—don't call me out on the exact math unless you want me to go through everyone one by one and take notes. And look, not all the hitting is like what you described; sometimes it’s "just" slapping. From what I know for sure, about four kids in the group are dealing with the heavy stuff, while the others haven't really specified exactly how bad their situation is. But honestly, it doesn't even matter. The physical pain is one thing, but the emotional and mental toll is way worse. Physical bruises fade in a few days, max, but the stuff that shapes who you become? That sticks. It stays with you forever. Even in my own apartment building, there's this woman who used to beat her kids so hard you could hear them screaming from the third floor all the way down to my unit on the ground floor. It was haunting. Then there was this one lady whose husband was being abusive both physically and sexually, and he'd take it out on their son too. We had a severe alcoholic in the building, and at least three families where the men are struggling with PTSD from their service—you can only imagine what the atmosphere is like in those homes. And it's not just us; the neighboring buildings aren't any better. Just a couple of months ago, I saw a woman walking to the grocery store in broad daylight with massive bruises all over her face, just trying to buy milk. I remember my friend's brother used to get hit with a belt; I still vividly remember his hands being covered in little cuts. I didn't even realize a belt could do that much damage. Even my little sister got hammered when she was barely a year old just because she dug some dirt out of a potted plant. My dad called her a child of the devil, and then she got hit even harder just because she cried while he was doing it... and so on. I know way too many cases like this. It's terrible. I'm not making this up, I have no reason to lie.
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#139 ·
Wait, seriously? You actually saw this and heard about it from friends back in school? That is just straight-up creepy.

Yeah. And honestly, the wildest part is that the one girl who was crying right there with me? She’s totally against corporal punishment and absolutely hates even bringing the subject up. I mean, what on earth do you have to do to a kid to justify hitting them under the guise of "doing what's best"?
Matthew Morales17 Matthew Morales17 Member
38 messages
joined May 2009
#140 ·
Hannah White2 said:The thing is, people treat having kids like it's just some automatic milestone or a standard accessory to marriage—not to mention all the unplanned pregnancies out there.
But listen, if you don't have solid upbringing, you don't have a healthy society, and the family is the bedrock of everything we have here.
I'm telling you, offering a maternity stipend only after someone completes a course... that's the easy fix.



That is such a fantastic idea! Honestly, if you ask me, I think our high schools (calling it a "course" almost feels like an understatement!) really ought to be teaching the stuff that actually matters: how to love, how to navigate sex and intimacy, building meaningful human connections, maintaining a marriage, parenting, eating nutritious food, and all that good stuff. When you look at that list, how on earth are you even supposed to decide which part is most important?! And yet, we aren't taught any of it! Instead, we spend years grinding away at advanced Calculus that most of us will never touch again in our lives. Or Geography—who even cares about mapping out distant territories? Or History—memorizing every single minor skirmish from the Civil War or whatever happened a hundred years ago? Of course, I can tell you exactly when certain historical conflicts broke out or recite sine and cosine functions in my sleep, but do I have a clue how to raise a child, eat a balanced meal, or even make a marriage last longer than two years?! ☕

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