Is spirituality a form of personal growth?

Hannah Morris3 said:But is that actually experiencing it—or just observing?

I mean, I guess it makes sense to ask him that, but I’d probably throw in another thought:

If that's the case, then what's even the difference between actual existence and just sitting through a movie at the AMC?

Hannah Morris3 said:But is that actually experiencing it—or just observing?

Both.
But let me ask you... what does "observation" even mean to you?
Maybe we aren't on the same page, or maybe we just define "observation" differently!

Observation isn't some separate thing from Living. It’s the only way life truly happens.
There are two distinct functions an observer can perform...

Attention—that's the Self directing itself toward an object. But I don't mean concentration.
Awareness—that's being directed at both the subject and the object simultaneously.
Awareness is a flow.
And then there's a third:
Mindfulness.
In the beginning, awareness feels like hard work. But once it becomes spontaneous, once it's just part of your daily rhythm, it evolves into Mindfulness. A relaxed kind of awareness...

Nancy Thompson3 said:I mean, I guess it makes sense to ask him that, but I’d probably throw in another thought:

If that's the case, then what's even the difference between actual existence and just sitting through a movie at the AMC?

What even is life?
If you can give me an answer to that... then maybe I'll tell you the difference.... 🙂

Brandon Hall88 said:What even is life?
If you can give me an answer to that... then maybe I'll tell you the difference.... 🙂

I guess life is just some kind of activity performed by a structure that's capable of staying alive, replicating itself, and adapting—or evolving, I suppose—within its environment. But it shouldn't be just some digital optimization. Even though a computer virus and a biological one aren't fundamentally different in how they operate, the first one isn't truly alive because it lacks a physical, bodily presence.

Hannah Morris3 said:This whole idea of Nirvana being enlightened reminds me of that Volcanic race from the FBI movies.
If everyone actually reached enlightenment, would the human race even survive—would there even be any reproduction left?

Hold on, where did we go with this? Didn't Bob already argue—and prove—that a "civilized" person naturally trends toward negative birth rates??

Noah Sanchez7 said:Hold on, where did we go with this? Didn't Bob already argue—and prove—that a "civilized" person naturally trends toward negative birth rates??

So, check out this quote from Agent Smith:

Agent Smith said:I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

Yeah. Exactly. Once there's too many of us—and, let's be real, our total biomass probably outweighs every other living thing on Earth combined—then intelligent beings are basically expected to either:
a) ditch the home planet entirely, which requires propulsion tech that isn't exactly being perfected alongside Vestax turntables and Trumpian tea parties
b) just tank the birth rate and keep it in the negatives for a while until some kind of equilibrium is reached

Lisa Cox4 said:I haven't actually read that thread yet, but hey, whatever works. You did a solid job on the translation, though most people usually just call Carl Jung’s "dark side" concept the Shadow. 🙂
Quincy:

Can you answer these questions for me? So, what does a guy actually get when he finally achieves that "Simplicity" state you keep rambling about? Is it really this mythical land where pain and suffering just evaporate into thin air, or is there some other catch to the whole thing? Does this "enlightened" guy actually understand what "negative emotions" like anger or rage even feel like, and does he ever let them out? I mean, does he even have emotions at all, or is he just some hollow shell? Does this guy even have desires? Does this guy actually have a moral compass, or does he just live in a world where good and evil don't even exist?

I can. 🙂 But first, let’s get one thing straight... you don't just wake up one morning and suddenly become One. It doesn't work like that. 😉 I mean, don't even get me started... it sounds totally impossible, but hey, at least for us regular mortals, right? 😁

Brandon Hall88 was moving fast on this one, already dropping plenty of gems about how the whole point of spiritual practice is finding freedom from polarity—basically, breaking those addictive loops. He’s saying the goal isn't to just wipe everything out, but to free us from that constant need to react. You know, because every single thing you react to is just another massive drain on your energy. So, I figured I'd just add my two cents:

Here’s the deal: everything starts and ends with one simple truth—nothing in this world stays still. Everything is constantly shifting, evolving, and moving. It’s like the I Ching has been preaching for thousands of years: "change is the only constant." 🙂

Look, any effort you put toward spiritual growth definitely moves the needle, but let’s be real—that progress isn't permanent or set in stone. You shake off one burden, feel like you've finally made it, and you're riding high for a minute, but then? Boom. A new piece of your shadow crawls out of the woodwork and you're right back where you started. It's a cycle. The brutal reality is that all you're left with is the grind—just endless, exhausting work, over and over again. 😁

Look, let's be real: spiritual practices definitely give you those little windows into that state of Simplicity, even if they’re just fleeting moments. But honestly, who cares if it's short-lived? Even a split second of that clarity is enough to flip a switch in your brain. And once you've had that epiphany, what are you actually left with? You're left with the experience. It’s pretty simple math: the more of those deep insights you stack up, the freer you become. Isn't that the whole point?

Look, you can actually manage to hit a relatively steady state of higher consciousness—that whole Pleroma thing—if you try hard enough. But even then... is it really the answer? Is it? 😬

Look, I’m not trying to turn this into some deep philosophical lecture—don't get me wrong—but... 😁Everyone’s out here chasing this permanent high, trying to lock down that feeling of happiness like they can just pour concrete over it and freeze time forever. Honestly? It’s a good thing that’s impossible. If we actually managed to cement ourselves into one single state of being, we'd be totally screwed. We’re evolutionary creatures, right? Any attempt to stay stuck in one spot would basically just be a way to kill our own growth and stall any kind of progress. Why would anyone even want to stop evolving? 👍
Quincy:

So, what's the actual deal with the difference between someone who’s actually whole and just some regular person who hasn't even started a spiritual journey?

A whole person doesn't have questions. 🙂

That’s completely incorrect. If that were true, you'd be denying the entire purpose of enlightenment or Budō, which wasn't just achieved by Buddha, but by many others, including Mahavira.

Of course, you don't get there by "cementing" anything; it's actually the exact opposite—it comes from persistently breaking down those deep-seated "walls" within the very core of our existence.
Those walls and limitations are what make us human—limited beings destined to experience constant cycles of falling and rising...

Nancy Thompson3 said:I guess life is just some kind of activity performed by a structure that's capable of staying alive, replicating itself, and adapting—or evolving, I suppose—within its environment. But it shouldn't be just some digital optimization. Even though a computer virus and a biological one aren't fundamentally different in how they operate, the first one isn't truly alive because it lacks a physical, bodily presence.

🙂
Wonderful.
Honestly, I can't tell if you're actually describing what life is to you or just describing a movie plot. 🙂

So, how would you answer this one:
Who are you?

Brandon Hall88 said:🙂
Wonderful.
Honestly, I can't tell if you're actually describing what life is to you or just describing a movie plot. 🙂

So, how would you answer this one:
Who are you?

A movie doesn't have a physical body. Sure, the film strip itself is material, but what’s projected on it is pure INFORMATION—it’s independent of whatever MEDIUM carries it, kind of like how a computer virus doesn't care about the hardware it infects. Real life involves a unique, singular body that evolves, replicates, and maintains itself. Once that body is gone, the life is gone. I guess that's why we bother sterilizing our food.

So, how would you answer this question:
Who are you?

I guess I'm just a conscious entity that's temporarily occupying a suitable biological vessel. I'm not the body, and maybe I'm not even "life" itself. Life is just my vehicle for navigating this material world.

Brandon Hall88 said:Both.
But let me ask you... what does "observation" even mean to you?
Maybe we aren't on the same page, or maybe we just define "observation" differently!

Observation isn't some separate thing from Living. It’s the only way life truly happens.
There are two distinct functions an observer can perform...

Attention—that's the Self directing itself toward an object. But I don't mean concentration.
Awareness—that's being directed at both the subject and the object simultaneously.
Awareness is a flow.
And then there's a third:
Mindfulness.
In the beginning, awareness feels like hard work. But once it becomes spontaneous, once it's just part of your daily rhythm, it evolves into Mindfulness. A relaxed kind of awareness...

Observation is essentially maintaining control—you feel the impulse, but you choose whether or not to act on it. To me, it feels like you lose that one vital dimension—the whole reason being human matters in the first place.

Noah Sanchez7 said:I mean, seriously. No one has the right to tell you how to live your life, how to act, or what kind of worldview you should hold...
Being different—really, truly different—it takes a massive amount of courage and some serious mental discipline..

Try telling that to those uptight corporate freaks over at General Electric.
BTW: I don't work at General Electric, nor would I ever survive among that crowd.

Nancy Thompson3 said:So, check out this quote from Agent Smith:

Yeah. Exactly. Once there's too many of us—and, let's be real, our total biomass probably outweighs every other living thing on Earth combined—then intelligent beings are basically expected to either:
a) ditch the home planet entirely, which requires propulsion tech that isn't exactly being perfected alongside Vestax turntables and Trumpian tea parties
b) just tank the birth rate and keep it in the negatives for a while until some kind of equilibrium is reached

You know how it goes. I used to get dragged into arguments with everyone about everything. I eventually realized it just drains my battery.
If I feel like a discussion is actually constructive—meaning it’s focused on people and helps them learn something—then I don't mind putting in the effort.

Noah Sanchez7 said:Look, nobody has the right to tell you how to live your life, how to act, or what your worldview should be...

Actually, they can—and they've been doing it since the day you were born.

Noah Sanchez7 said:You know how it goes. I used to get dragged into arguments with everyone about everything. I eventually realized it just drains my battery.
If I feel like a discussion is actually constructive—meaning it’s focused on people and helps them learn something—then I don't mind putting in the effort.

I just don't get it. I'm sitting here telling you we don't even know how to survive on this planet, let alone figure out how to leave it, and you're trying to tell me that debating it is pointless. It isn't pointless; maybe you just don't know how to hold your own in a conversation. And honestly, how do you even argue against cold, hard facts?

Nancy Thompson3 said:Try telling that to those uptight corporate freaks over at General Electric.
BTW: I don't work at General Electric, nor would I ever survive among that crowd.

Now, let me be completely honest with you. Around the time I was 17 or 18, I felt this existential weight for the first time, and honestly, it felt pretty heavy...
Since then, I've been torn between two things.
On one hand, there's what I believe to be true—integrity, clarity, and purity. On the other, there's that existential pressure where it feels like you have to "sell out" just to get by...
That pressure lasted until the day I finally told myself: "forget all of you." I knew I wouldn't find any happiness following your scripts, so I chose my own path instead—even if it means being a pauper on the street or starving. I'd rather face death than live a life that isn't mine, one that doesn't resonate with who I actually am.

Look, nobody is forcing your hand. You don't have to!! You just think you do. Realizing that you aren't obligated to follow suit is actually a massive step forward...

I've made up my mind, and it's final... if you're looking for someone to conform to your standards, don't expect to find me among you.
If you know what I mean...

Noah Sanchez7 said:Now, let me be completely honest with you. Around the time I was 17 or 18, I felt this existential weight for the first time, and honestly, it felt pretty heavy...
Since then, I've been torn between two things.
On one hand, there's what I believe to be true—integrity, clarity, and purity. On the other, there's that existential pressure where it feels like you have to "sell out" just to get by...
That pressure lasted until the day I finally told myself: "forget all of you." I knew I wouldn't find any happiness following your scripts, so I chose my own path instead—even if it means being a pauper on the street or starving. I'd rather face death than live a life that isn't mine, one that doesn't resonate with who I actually am.

Look, nobody is forcing your hand. You don't have to!! You just think you do. Realizing that you aren't obligated to follow suit is actually a massive step forward...

I've made up my mind, and it's final... if you're looking for someone to conform to your standards, don't expect to find me among you.
If you know what I mean...

That’s fine. Really. If you don't have an ego, I suppose you could live that way. Just endure the winters, the cold, the insults, and the constant condescension from the Siemens crowd who love to judge you for not being exactly like them... But no, I won't do that. I’m choosing to walk my own path, and that doesn't mean living in a gutter, nor does it mean grinding away in some cubicle wearing a button-down and a tie.

I've made up my mind, and it's final... if you all expect me to just conform, then don't expect to see me around anymore..
If you catch my drift...

I hear you. Respect!

Hannah Morris3 said:Actually, they can—and they've been doing it since the day you were born.

Well, that’s exactly the point. As Bud says, being human is perhaps our only distinction from animals—the fact that through sheer will and consciousness, we have the power to free ourselves.
True awareness comes from tearing away everything you were (wrongly) taught throughout your life. Since everyone was taught, and then they taught others, it’s an endless chain going all the way back. If you finally say "STOP!" and decide to distinguish truth from illusion, that is what we call "the path."

Nancy Thompson3 said:I just don't get it. I'm sitting here telling you we don't even know how to survive on this planet, let alone figure out how to leave it, and you're trying to tell me that debating it is pointless. It isn't pointless; maybe you just don't know how to hold your own in a conversation. And honestly, how do you even argue against cold, hard facts?

If there isn't some element of liberation involved, then any philosophy that just pushes existence for its own sake feels pretty hollow to me.

Noah Sanchez7 said:If there isn't some element of liberation involved, then any philosophy that just pushes existence for its own sake feels pretty hollow to me.

Fine. If that's how we're going to play this game.
Do you honestly think Vestax offers any kind of liberation?
Look, here's my take: people are drowning in consumerism. It’s constant—just gathering more stuff and blowing money on material goods. Even the church complains that its congregation would rather spend their time at the local mall than sitting in a pew.
People judge each other based entirely on what they own.
And when things fall apart, they turn to drugs to cope. Within the DJ scene, cocaine dealing is basically thriving—you see it everywhere from guys like Kala to those types over at the Apartment or Pif, or even Charlemagne.

Where is the "liberation" in that? To me, that's just mindless vegetating.

Noah Sanchez7 said:Well, that’s exactly the point. As Bud says, being human is perhaps our only distinction from animals—the fact that through sheer will and consciousness, we have the power to free ourselves.
True awareness comes from tearing away everything you were (wrongly) taught throughout your life. Since everyone was taught, and then they taught others, it’s an endless chain going all the way back. If you finally say "STOP!" and decide to distinguish truth from illusion, that is what we call "the path."

Up, the real illusion is thinking you can be a free individual while still trying to fit into the mold of society.