Nature vs. Nurture: Talent or Hard Work?

funky Daemon ironhawk36 said:It’s not about talent or practice. It’s just habit and inclination... 👍

I don't buy it... 😁

I listen to music, and I pick up an instrument once in a while... but don't ask me to sing. I've got zero ear for it. 😉 I can read sheet music and memorize melodies just fine, but without an ear for it, I'm limited to whatever I can grind out through sheer practice... then there's my old neighbor, guy barely finished fourth grade... he’s got the natural ear though. 👍 He only needs to hear a song once to play it back perfectly... 👍

Gulpa said:I disagree. 😁
For instance, I listen to music constantly and pick up an instrument every now and then... but if you killed me, I’d tell you I have zero musical ear. 😉

Then get used to it... 👍
You think you lack an ear just because you believe you do. 😁
I've watched my own ability develop over years of playing... it's a bit hazy, but I remember when I started, I couldn't distinguish intervals or grasp complex rhythms... now? It's effortless. 😁 It feels like it was always there. 😁

Gulpa said:I can read sheet music and memorize a melody, but without natural pitch, I'm limited to whatever I can drill through practice... whereas my old neighbor, who barely finished elementary school... man, he was born with it. 👍 He hears a song once and plays it back perfectly. 👍

That ability to play back a song after hearing it comes with time. It isn't some magic trick that happens overnight. 😬

funky Daemon said:that ability to play a song once you hear it comes with time... it's not just snapping your fingers and suddenly you can do it... 😬

I don't know... for him, it really was like that 🙂

Gulpa said:I don't know... that's honestly how it went down for him. 🙂

I doubt it. 😉
Just go have a quick chat with him about it... 👍

Talent and practice are much like a man and a woman—it’s only through their union that true results are ever born.

Well put. 😁

If I may add my two cents to this discussion... since I’ve spent a significant amount of time immersed in the world of music myself, I can certainly speak to the learning curve. I vividly remember those early days when I couldn't even strike a chord cleanly, let alone attempt to transcribe a melody by ear. It was incredibly frustrating. Fast forward four years later, and the situation is entirely different; I can pull just about any track I want. Sure, it isn't always instantaneous, but through sheer grit and relentless persistence, I can deconstruct a composition down to its finest details.
It's the truth.... mastery is simply the intersection of habit, innate inclination, and disciplined practice 😁 and so on....

Here we go again... everything said is technically true... but the real point of this debate is that "talented" people can pull the same thing off with way less practice and effort 😁

Calling talent and practice "bad" words when you're talking about art is... 😁 👍

ironhawk36 said:I don't know... that's just exactly how it went down with him. 🙂

That’s what they call absolute pitch. It’s just hardwired—you're either born with it or you aren't. There's no amount of practicing that'll get you there if you don't have the hardware for it. Too much. It’s all about practice. Some people can just sit down and play anything by ear—they don't even need sheet music. For them, making music is practically effortless, like they're just snapping their fingers. I actually know someone exactly like that.

Lisa Rodriguez84 said:That’s called perfect pitch. It's innate—you don't really need much practice for it. People with that gift can play anything by ear and transcribe everything just by listening. For them, music is practically second nature. I know someone like that.

Perfect pitch means identifying notes without any reference tone...
transcribing a song or playing by ear isn't the same thing... people without perfect pitch can still reproduce melodies "from their heads" just fine...

Lisa Rodriguez84 said:It’s innate. Doesn't take much practice to get there.

Heh... depends on who you ask... 😁
Some swear we're all born with perfect pitch. Others think it's strictly genetic. Then there's the crowd that believes it's just about being blasted with music as a kid...

I'd put my money on the last one... 😎

I honestly believe that talent acts as a massive head start. While you can certainly achieve just about anything through sheer practice, having that natural gift combined with hard work puts you leagues ahead of someone who is relying on effort alone.

Trust me, talent isn't something we're all just handed at birth. I’m a music grad, so I've seen how this works firsthand: those kids who are naturally gifted? They don't have to grind nearly as hard; everything musical just clicks for them. Now, sure, you don't strictly need perfect pitch to pick up songs by ear, but it definitely makes the job a hell of a lot easier. If you're constantly doing it, you'll stay sharp, whereas if you let your skills get rusty, you're going to struggle. As for how someone actually develops perfect pitch? Honestly, I haven't a clue. I have a buddy who has it, but his whole family has been in the industry for generations, so he probably just caught a lucky break from his genes...

Lisa Rodriguez84 said:Believe me, it’s not something we’re all born with...

I’ve read some theories suggesting we actually *are* born with it, but then external factors kick in and strip that ability away from about 99% of us... not entirely sure which specific influences, though. I'll have to dig through some books and see what I can find. 🤔

You're in the music industry... how many people do you run into who actually have an ear like that?

The general consensus is that it’s only about 1% of the population.😁

@Lisa Rodriguez84: what's your primary instrument... 😁

Man, that's a tough one to answer... honestly, you kind of need both. Like, anyone can pick up an instrument and learn the notes, right? That's just practice. But talent? That’s what actually makes the music creative and high-quality. Acting is different though—you definitely need a spark of talent there. Not everyone can just dive into a role and lose themselves like that. And singing? Yeah, that's pure talent and genetics mixed with grit and just loving what you do.

Hey, I have a question for you, unknown 😁

Since you’re always preaching about practice over raw talent 😛

How exactly does someone "practice" writing a sonnet, or composing a book, or even painting?

We all know how to hold a brush or pick up a pen... so why isn't everyone a Da Vinci, a Shakespeare, or a Mozart?

ironhawk36 said:Let's turn the question on you, 😁

Since you're such a big believer in practice over raw talent... 😛

How does anyone actually "practice" writing a sonnet, or composing a book, or painting?

Sure, we all know how to hold a brush or a pen... so why aren't we all Da Vinci, Shakespeare, or Mozart?

Not everyone knows how to hold a brush...
After practicing for a while, you find a different way to grip it... 😁

I'm not arguing for practice over talent... 😛
I'm just saying we should probably stop using those terms altogether... 😍
It's about habit and inclination... 😁

In my view, poetry and creative work mostly come down to a person's mindset and character... 🤔
The same goes for drawing and painting... you start with boxes, move to still lifes, then figure drawing... 😁

As for Mozart, he was playing from an incredibly young age—performing concerts even back then. He grew up in a musical family, surrounded by sound. Those influences, combined with his specific "mindset," likely fueled that creative spark...

Maybe... 🤔
Or maybe not... 😁

Lisa Rodriguez84 said:It’s true that you don't need perfect pitch to transcribe songs—it just makes things harder. Someone who does it constantly will find it easier, whereas someone else might struggle if

The whole idea of absolute pitch has absolutely nothing to do with actual talent.

It’s basically the same phenomenon as meeting some guy who happens to be 7'2" and saying, "Well, he’s obviously got a better shot at playing center in the NBA than you do at 5'7"."

And since ironhawk36 mentioned they lack that kind of hearing—which is probably true, given there are plenty of physiological reasons why someone's hearing might be off—you could always try cleaning your ears... 😬 😬

Just kidding, mostly. Having more or less pitch perception is just a biological quirk, much like height.

But honestly, I’m with the sentiment that talent is really just an incredibly intense willpower—that raw passion for a craft—where the more you dive into the "work," the more those neurons responsible for comprehension and learning actually start to develop. 😉

funky Daemon said:we don't all hold the brush the same way...
after you've spent enough time at it, you eventually find your own unique grip... 😁

I'm not trying to argue that practice should trump talent... 😛
I'm just saying we ought to stop using those terms altogether... 😍
It's really about habit and inclination... 😁

...

Look, you can master painting techniques until you're blue in the face. You can nail the brushwork, perfect your composition, and check every single box on the technical list... but if you lack that certain "spark," your work isn't going to resonate with anyone. That’s the dividing line between being mediocre and actually standing out. To put it another way: if you take two people with the exact same drive, passion, and work ethic, the one with more raw potential will always outpace the other. Simply put, someone can achieve truly brilliant results, but only if they possess that foundational talent. Plain and simple.
In general, talent without effort is just wasted potential, and while hard work can get you very, very good results, it rarely leads to the phenomenal stuff.
And, by the way, you might be able to play an instrument without an ear for music, but you certainly won't be much of a singer...