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Nature vs. Nurture: Talent or Hard Work?

Started by velvetcyclist52 · · 👁 12 views · 102 replies

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Participants velvetcyclist52Alex Rogers18Susan James42hollowtrucker77stormyotter67rustymaker5mistyfox812Lisa Rodriguez84crimsonhound80ironhawk36Adam Ross4Jonathan Brooks8Ryan Ruizcosmichawk5Charles YoungBrandon Martin7urbanviper93mistybisonlonegardenerswiftcobra15Ethan Kim4Amanda Patel4
lonegardener lonegardener Regular
347 messages
joined Apr 2010
#81 ·
nobody said:Don't measure success by comparing yourself to everyone else. Instead, judge it by the sheer joy you feel when you nail something you're working on, the passion that drives you to keep going, and the genuine happiness you feel seeing that same love for the craft in others—rather than using their wins to make your own feel smaller... 😉

Do you honestly believe that? 🙂

Do you really think Kramnik feels happy just because he sees Topalov sharing that same passion for chess (and vice versa)? Does he celebrate Anja Janičin's medals?

Don't get me wrong; I wish people actually functioned the way you're describing. But I have to say, that’s far from reality—except, perhaps, in very rare instances.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#82 ·
lonegardener said:Are you actually serious about that? 🙂

Do you really think Kramnik feels any sense of joy seeing Topalov share that same passion for chess (or vice versa)? Or does he truly celebrate Anja Janičín's medals?





Success isn't even a topic of conversation over at TS.





It all comes down to whether you're driven by raw talent or sheer practice—and motivation is everything there.
If my main goal is simply to beat everyone else (which is just a polite way of saying "being better"), then I’ll grind through the training and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to reach that peak.

But if I'm looking for personal fulfillment rather than just a scoreboard victory, I'll nurture my talents without feeling like I have to break myself through endless drills (Lord help me, I'm just an ordinary American! 😁), choosing instead to find joy in the process itself.



If someone is naturally gifted at music or poetry, why would they kill themselves practicing just to become a champion skier or a pro tennis player? 👎

To me, that seems completely unhealthy.


lonegardener lonegardener Regular
347 messages
joined Apr 2010
#83 ·
swiftcobra15 said:




Success isn't even mentioned in TS.





It really comes down to whether you're driven by raw talent or sheer practice—and motivation is obviously the deciding factor here.
If my goal is to beat everyone else (using "being better" as a polite euphemism), then I’m going to grind, practice relentlessly, and sacrifice whatever is necessary to hit that target of success.

But if what matters to me is personal fulfillment rather than just winning, I’ll focus on nurturing my talents without burning myself out. I won't kill myself over training; instead, I'll just enjoy every single moment spent honing my craft.😁

What exactly is TS?

Look, I basically agree with you. Personally, I find talent much more fascinating than hard work. Back in elementary school, I always thought ladybugs were charming, while ants were just boring, self-righteous pests. 😬
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#84 ·
nobody and nothing said:Don't measure yourself against everyone else. Instead, gauge yourself by the genuine joy you feel when you actually nail something you're working on—that raw passion that keeps you going. Or better yet, the happiness you get from seeing someone else share that same love for their craft (without feeling the need to tear their success down just to boost your own)... 😉

👍

I’d just add that the word "success" doesn't really belong in a conversation about talent or art...
given how much baggage and nonsense that term carries these days... 🙄
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#85 ·
swiftcobra15 said:It all comes down to talent versus practice, and motivation is the deciding factor.
If my goal is simply to beat everyone else—to be "better," if you want to call it that—then I’ll grind away and sacrifice whatever it takes to hit that mark of success.

But why wouldn't you sacrifice everything just to hone your talent? 😁
Why limit it to just "being better" than the next guy?

swiftcobra15 said:If I'm chasing self-fulfillment rather than just winning, then I'll work on my talents without feeling the burn. It won't be a struggle; instead, I'll actually enjoy the process of practicing what I'm good at. 😁 Lord help me, I'm an American through and through!

I mean, isn't practice just the act of exercising your talent? 😁

P.S. Why is your formatting so bizarre? 😕 It's making it pretty hard to read and even harder to quote. 😬
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#86 ·
lonegardener said:What exactly does TS stand for?




Topic Starter 😉


swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#87 ·
Adam Ross4 said:But why wouldn't someone make sacrifices just to hone their talent? 😁
Why limit it to just "being better"...

😕 😕 😕

Adam Ross4 said:Isn't practice essentially just honing one's talents? 😁



If we view practice as merely a tool to reach some end goal, then I simply can't get behind that.
To me, practicing a talent is about finding joy in it—it's pure self-expression. 😉

Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#88 ·
ocean breeze said:😕 😕 😕

But you actually said this:

If "being better" means sacrifice and practice...
if "self-fulfillment" means honing a talent...

Then I’d argue: why can't sacrifice and practice be part of that fulfillment?

Because they are... 😁

Even when you're practicing a talent, you're still practicing...
So it isn't talent versus practice. It's talent *and* practice.
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#89 ·
The Atlantic. said:To practice a talent is to actually live it—to find joy in the self-expression. 😉

But let's be honest... it’s all just an exercise.
Say, you dive into philosophy, and you just keep getting better and better at it... 😉
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#90 ·
oceanic said:If training is just a tool to grab success, then I’m completely out.

Honestly, success itself is pretty questionable... 😁
I mean... what does "succeeding" even actually mean? 🤔

When you look at art and talent, obviously...
lonegardener lonegardener Regular
347 messages
joined Apr 2010
#91 ·
Adam Ross4 said:achieving success is generally unacceptable... 😁
I mean... what does "success" even mean? 🤔

when we're talking about art and talent, obviously...

Success. That’s the big theme you hear blasted in every Hollywood movie since you were a kid. Honestly, I find it hard to believe we aren't actually on the same page here. By that definition, "succeeding" is primarily about proving something to everyone else rather than to yourself—even though you constantly claim you're doing it for your own sake (and you make sure to announce it loudly enough to make the whole thing a complete xexexe paradox). A total vanity project, if you ask me.

On another note, TS (hey, you learn something new every day) brought up the whole "talent vs. practice" debate. Am I the only one who feels like this dilemma naturally leads to the question: "Which one matters more for SUCCESS?" Because otherwise, why even bother debating the two?
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#92 ·
lonegardener said:Success. That’s the thing you’ve been fed by Hollywood movies since you were a kid. I find it hard to believe we aren't actually on the same page here. By that definition, success is about proving something to everyone else, not yourself—even though you insist you're doing it for yourself (you say it loud enough for the whole world to hear, just to complete the paradox xexexe). A vanity project, if you will.

We understand each other perfectly... 😉
I know what success is... a hollow derivative of pop culture 🙄... but my point is this: if the very concept of "success" enters the equation, true art (or any pursuit requiring actual talent) becomes impossible.

As for that "vanity project" comment 👍...
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#93 ·
funky Daemon said:and I’d argue: why shouldn't sacrifice and discipline be core components of self-fulfillment?

because they absolutely are... 😁



The word for practice comes from the ancient Greek term askesis, which is where we get "ascetic"—essentially, those who dedicate themselves to disciplined training.

I suppose there's a certain satisfaction to be found in that kind of rigor. 😁

Of course, some people might enjoy pain for its own sake, but I've never been one of them. 😉


funky Daemon said:and while you're honing your talent, you're also practicing...
so it isn't a choice between talent or practice, but rather talent and practice working together...




But WHERE IS THE POINT? 😕

As Apement so beautifully pointed out, if you aren't chasing success, you can't really fail.😉


Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#94 ·
CoastlineRunner said:But W H Y?

Why? Talent, obviously... 😁

Actually, I think the initial question was framed entirely wrong... 🙄
Adam Ross4 Adam Ross4 Active Member
57 messages
joined Dec 2006
#95 ·
category said:Can someone actually reach the level of naturally gifted people through nothing but practice? I'm talking about specific talents, like singing or acting. Is that stuff strictly hardwired in your DNA, or can a person fight their way to those same heights regardless?
There are things everyone *should* be able to achieve with enough work, yet hardly anyone does. Does that count as talent, or is it just something else entirely?
Try to wrap your heads around this and give me your take.

The OP seems a bit obsessed with success... 😁
So, the answer is NO. ...
You simply can't out-practice pure, raw talent. ... 😁
Jonathan Brooks8 Jonathan Brooks8 Active Member
233 messages
joined Feb 2007
#96 ·
funky Daemon said:The OP seems a bit obsessed with the idea of success... 😁
So, my answer is a hard NO! ...
You simply cannot practice your way into matching the level of achievement seen in "naturally gifted" individuals... 😁

👍 😁
Actually, sometimes success is just finding the courage to pick up a guitar in the first place...
lonegardener lonegardener Regular
347 messages
joined Apr 2010
#97 ·
funky Daemon said:the OP is clearly obsessed with success... 😁
so, my answer is NO. ...
you simply can't outwork "talented" people through practice alone... 😁

To be more precise, you can't outwork talented people who *also* work just as hard as you do. You might eventually catch up to or even surpass talented individuals who haven't fully leaned into their gifts.

A perfect example would be David Nalbandian. Most tennis experts agree the guy is pure talent, yet he never quite reached the absolute summit—likely because he wasn't willing to dedicate his entire life to the sport the way Roger Federer did. On the flip side, someone less naturally gifted like Nikolaj Davidenko could train just as relentlessly as Roger, but he'll likely never close the gap, no matter how much effort he puts in. After all, Roger works just as hard, but his ceiling is significantly higher due to that raw talent.

(edit: I spelled that name the American way, dammit)
crimsonhound80 crimsonhound80 Active Member
175 messages
joined Mar 2008
#98 ·
Maxim mrvica

"Have you always stood out from the crowd because of some innate talent?"

Maxim's response was basically this:"Not at all. Honestly, I was just an average pianist for the longest time—really mediocre, if I'm being honest. It wasn't until I finally 'got serious' about the grind—I mean, we're talking about those brutal 12-hour daily sessions—and actually started to truly *love* the piano, that people started telling me I had any kind of exceptional talent."😕 😎

EDIT:

I honestly think that’s more than enough explanation for anyone who wants to understand what "talent" actually looks like. 😁
mistybison mistybison Regular
495 messages
joined Aug 2008
#99 ·
I believe we are all born with certain natural inclinations. From a young age, we intuitively sense what comes easily to us and where our weaknesses lie. This internal compass usually guides our choice of high school, our college majors, and if we're lucky, our career paths. I’m convinced that everyone possesses these predispositions, and they are generally present in some capacity within every individual. Some people, however, possess abilities far beyond the norm, which is why we use the word "talented." I believe both talent and inclination can apply to any field imaginable. Generally, people prefer doing what they are naturally good at, though that isn't an absolute rule. In my view, true excellence is only achievable when we align our work with our natural aptitudes and our passions. Talent alone, without passion and the drive to practice and refine those skills, leads nowhere. Conversely, if someone has immense willpower and passion but lacks innate talent, they can still achieve something, even if it stays at an average level. Therefore, one should choose a path that resonates with their natural strengths and brings them joy; if you do that, success will inevitably follow. Unfortunately, few people make that choice. In today's society, where everything revolves around chasing a paycheck and status, many people select careers based solely on financial gain or social prestige. This is why we see so many frustrated individuals—people who spend their lives studying and working in fields they dislike, lack skill in, or perhaps even secretly despise, simply because the salary is decent.
stormyotter67 stormyotter67 Member
13 messages
joined Jun 2007
#100 ·
Well, just a few hours ago, I was proven absolutely wrong about something... turns out true talent really does exist out there in the wild...
I was hanging out with some of the sisters from the local convent, and one of them spotted a piano, sat down, and just started playing... and let me tell you, I was floored...
I asked her, "So, how much formal music training did you actually go through?"
And she just looks at me and says, "Training? What training? I just play for myself, straight from the soul."
I was speechless... so I pressed her again, asking if she’d ever attended even a single music school... she told me, "Not a single class, no."
Now, that is what I call raw talent. If only she had dedicated herself to the craft instead of dedicating her life to God😁
Just incredible.😉

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