Nature vs. Nurture: Talent or Hard Work?

unknown said:go ahead, explain the difference... 😉

The difference is that Arnold Schwarzenegger artificially enhanced his physique... his body didn't adapt to it, he forced it to happen.

Go ahead and grind away at some job or hobby for as long as you want... then D-day arrives and someone who put in half the effort washes you out just because they have raw talent.

Look, maybe talent is only about 10% of what makes someone successful, but don't underestimate that. That 10% creates a massive gap.

It’s also damn near impossible to define what "help" talent actually provides in a practical sense. It manifests differently depending on the field you're in. In some areas, it's barely a factor... in others, it's absolutely vital.

ironhawk36 said:the difference is that Arnold Schwarzenegger artificially enhanced his physiognomy... his body didn't just adapt to it, he forced it into that shape.

Well, aren't musical tones also somewhat forced when you listen to music? 😉
I mean... what does "artificial" even imply? Isn't everything ultimately natural? 😬 ... 🤔
If we're going down that road, music is artificial too... you ever see heavy metal just spontaneously manifest in the wild? 😁

Hmmm said:Go ahead, grind away at some job or hobby as much as you want—eventually, D-Day arrives and you get absolutely wiped by someone who put in way less effort, simply because they’re "talented."

It’s not even that THAT person is more talented than the other one—it’s just that they actually loved what they were practicing, so, I guess, their neurons basically... well, they bulked up. Like, they physically developed the specific neural pathways responsible for that skill. It's biology, really.--not just magic.

Back in the day, I really thought I could just sit down and teach myself how to draw. I spent so much time trying to pick up the skill (you can check out some of my old caricatures here: klick), but looking back, those efforts felt pretty pointless. I guess it’s one of those things where you either have it or you don't. If you've got the knack, you've always had it—for me, it started the moment I could actually hold a pencil. But if it's not there? It's never coming. Maybe you can refine your style a bit, but honestly, that only works if you already possess the talent to begin with.
It seems like that applies to almost everything else, too. It's kind of a waste of energy... you can't just go changing your blood type 😳

It’s pretty rare for someone to be blessed with absolutely everything. Those people are outliers. And
I think we all know at least one talented individual who completely burned out
simply because they assumed raw talent was enough and ignored everything else. It’s
just as common to see average folks achieve incredible things
through sheer grit, discipline, dedication, and a genuine passion
for their craft. But I also want to point out something that
hasn't been brought up yet: you need a certain dose of obsession!
If a person (like most of us) tries to chase too many different goals at once,
it’s hard to find the energy to actually pull them off. But if you
narrow your focus down to just one single objective, success becomes almost inevitable.

Speaking of which, I know this drummer who isn't exactly gifted
when it comes to pitch, but his sense of rhythm is incredible. Isn't he still a great
musician?

Brandon Martin7 said:check out a few of my caricatures: click

👍

urbanviper93 said:Rumor has it I know a killer drummer who doesn't really have
much of an ear for pitch, but his sense of rhythm is off the charts. Doesn't that make him a solid
musician?

If he’s actually a great drummer, he definitely has an ear...
it just needs some development...
otherwise, he'll hit a ceiling eventually...

plus, rhythmic feel and musical ear are pretty much two sides of the same coin... ☕

Brandon Martin7 said:Back when I actually believed drawing was a skill you could pick up—tried my hand at it once (check out my caricatures here: click)—I realized how futile the whole effort really is. My current philosophy? You either have it or you don't. If you had the knack, you always did, ever since you could hold a pencil. If you don't, you never will. All you can really do is refine a style, assuming you already possess the talent.
It’s basically the same deal with everything else. No point struggling; you can't change your blood type 😳

I've "always" known how to draw, too... 🤔
But honestly, I feel like I picked it up when I was a kid, so I don't really remember any sort of "learning process"...

Adam Ross4 said:if a drummer is actually talented, they definitely have the ear for it...

I thought you were arguing that we all have the same hearing capacity🥳

ironhawk36 said:I thought you were claiming we all have the same hearing. 🥳

Yeah, that relativity thing... just needs some real-world practice to actually stick. ☕

And of course... you have those people born with absolute pitch. I'm still not entirely sure if that's something you can actually develop.
There was some study floating around recently involving kids... they were attempting to develop their absolute pitch.
It worked okay enough for the two-to-four-year-olds... but once they hit that five-year mark? The results just went downhill from there. Fast.

I need to track down the link for those research results... once I have it, I'll post them here if anyone actually cares. ☕

Brandon Martin7 said:Back when I actually believed you could learn how to draw—and I really did try to pick up the skill (take a look at some of my caricatures here: klick)—I realized just how pointless those attempts were. My take now? It’s binary: you either have it or you don't. If you had the ability, you always had it. For me, it was there from the moment I could grip a pencil. But if you don't have it, you're never going to get it. All you can really do is refine your specific style, and even then, only if the foundation is already there.
It’s basically the same deal with everything else in life. You can't just go out and change your blood type, 😳

Those caricatures of yours are clearly for 🙏 🙏 🙏

Look, you've always possessed a massive passion for drawing, but those people you were trying to teach? They didn't have that same inner drive that you do—it wasn't part of their DNA—so, honestly, all that effort you put into them was pretty much wasted.

EDIT:

Did you produce a masterpiece caricature the very first time you ever picked up a pencil?
Did you ever draw something significantly better than those people who lack that "natural gift" just by practicing?!!??

I highly doubt it.

Nah, you’ve always been super into drawing.

Not really, I mean, sometimes I wanted to draw just because I could, I guess. I never actually had any big ambitions about becoming an artist or anything. What you saw is basically pretty much everything I’ve ever drawn.

Did you draw a caricature that well the very first time you ever picked up a pencil?

I actually found some of my old drawings from when I was maybe five or six years old... they were actually pretty fantastic, honestly. I think all I was missing back then was just a little bit of experience with observation and, you know, processing things emotionally.

Have you ever drawn something better than those people who don't have that (significant) "TALENT" on your very FIRST try!!??

100%

Skills like drawing or playing music aren't really just about technique, so I guess you can't just "learn" them in the traditional sense. Like, just reproducing a guitar solo isn't really playing. It all starts in the imagination, not just in your fingers. Specifically with a caricature, talent is really just being able to type out and realize that fluid flow of imagination.

Brandon Martin7 said:... playing back a single guitar solo isn't actually playing. It all starts in the imagination, not in your fingers...

👍

A buddy of mine once compared musical creativity and imagination to a game of "telephone," just using melodies and rhythms instead of words... 😁
I'm with him on that one... ☕

Real art lives in the improvisation, not the imitation... 😁

@Prince – In my music school, there’s only one student with perfect pitch who’s actually in my grade. I don't know about elementary school, but I doubt they have any kids with perfect pitch there. As for the faculty, we’ve got two teachers who have it, maybe one other person...
Most of the instructors have incredibly sharp relative pitch, though—that’s something you hone over years of doing this. You even get a few students who just naturally develop it on their own, so you don't really need perfect pitch to build up a killer ear.

Look, having perfect pitch isn't some mandatory requirement for talent. Sure, it helps immensely—not just for playing by ear or recognizing intervals, but it makes grinding through theory and finishing homework way easier since you can basically "see" the tones in your head. It makes everything click faster...

I’ve been playing clarinet for ten years, did piano for four before they took it away from me at school, and I've been messing around with guitar for about six months. Honestly, though? I barely have the time to play, and I definitely don't have the drive to pull those intense practice sessions... though maybe I'll get around to it eventually...

Nobody and nothing said:''If you spend just 20 minutes a day on something you enjoy, you'll eventually become an expert.''
The legend behind this thought is a powerhouse of a man—a world-renowned actor and political leader from perhaps the most influential state on Earth, Arnold Schwarzenegger. 🙏 Back when he was just a scrawny kid from Europe, it’s hard to imagine anyone could have predicted his massive success.
I would only suggest swapping out "willpower" for "passion." When you truly love something, you don't need willpower. And if you don't love it, why bother?

Is my favorite guy Arnie really that wise?! 😲 😁

Penis said:skills like drawing or playing music aren't really about technique—so you can't actually learn them. I mean, just copying a guitar solo isn't truly "playing." It all comes down to imagination rather than finger dexterity. Specifically, when it comes to caricature, talent is just the ability to type out and realize this... I don't know, "fluid sediment" of your imagination.

Look, skills like drawing and playing instruments ARE pure technique and they absolutely CAN be learned. 😛

I’ve been playing guitar for 20 years now, and let me tell you—reproducing a solo note-for-note IS playing. 😛

If you don't put in the work—if you don't grind through drawing drills or scale exercises—you're going to end up stuck with nothing but your imagination to fall back on, which won't get you very far. 🤣 🤣

That "fluid sediment of imagination" thing you mentioned? Well, it actually gets "better" only if you practice more. 😁

So, basically, by practicing, you’re actually developing the neurons responsible for those "fluid sediments of imagination" (to use your own fancy phrasing).

It's funny, really. No matter how much I tried, I just couldn't grasp drawing. My grades in art class were always abysmal...

Sure, you can refine your technique a bit, but if you lack the natural knack for it (like I do), you'll eventually hit a ceiling where all you can really master is stylization. 🙂

cosanostra said:They say success is 1% talent and 99% hard work. If that’s actually true, then any one of us could make it if we just put in the hours.

Individually? Sure, anyone can win. But collectively? That’s impossible. Success is inherently relative. To truly call someone a "success," there has to be a massive group of people left behind who didn't make the cut.

Apemant said:Success is all about how you stack up against everyone else. For someone to actually be considered successful, there’s gotta be a whole bunch of people who aren't.

Man, I don't buy that at all. You don't measure success by comparing yourself to others. It's more about that rush you get when you finally nail something you're working on, or that fire in your gut that keeps you going. Honestly? It's that genuine joy you feel seeing someone else crush it too—not looking at their wins just to make my own feel smaller... 😉