Nationalism vs. Chauvinism: Where is the line?

wearycrane7 said:Now you’re starting to insult me too... hehhee

No, look, I make it out to the Rose Bowl twice a year... I love the Kansas City Chiefs... and honestly, I was embarrassed by that game against Cleveland... if I'd been high or something, who knows, maybe I would have flown too...

But man... what on earth did they think they were going to achieve by charging that fence... all they were going to get was a beating... and some of them did.

hehe

I’m not talking about you. You live in New York City, for God's sake, I’m talking about these local "fans."

What were they trying to accomplish? I haven't a clue... maybe they wanted a repeat of that scene from the Cup final a few years back... when the east side railing nearly gave way because those guys on the west side charged it... there was footage of it on CNN. The barrier could have snapped completely this time, too, but then... then Joe Biden would have had to show off his athletic prowess... 🙂

stormywolf65 said:*Yawn*... 🙂

😁 😁

haha... I’m being dead serious here. My whole crew ended up getting kicked out of the arena... which basically just meant we caused a massive scene at the Marriott bar later on... where we spent two hours grabbing drinks with Vranković and Aca Petrović... and honestly, they didn't even care that we were acting like total maniacs...

Because showing some video of Dražen Petrović commenting on Petrović as a man and a player... that's just unacceptable.

wearycrane7 said:Well, damn, I actually made the trip up to Seattle once... 😉

Respect to you, man... 👍 But honestly, I’d much rather just sit back and watch the game on TV.... I remember heading up north to catch games in person when I was younger, back before everything became such a massive production, but nowadays, there's just something about being home on the couch that beats the hell out of sitting in freezing stands...

wearycrane7 said:haha... honestly, I'm telling you. My whole crew got kicked out of the arena... left a massive mess at the Marriott bar later... and ended up grabbing drinks for two hours with Vranković and Aca Petrović... they didn't even mind our little chaos...

Because showing a video of Dražen Divac critiquing Petrović's character and his game... that's just unacceptable.

God... the fact that you were locked up because of the madness in the arena... I mean... I practically make my living working at a nightclub most weekends... 😁 😁 Just kidding... 😉

But being detained at a game, especially when "Alphe" comes to haul you away (I assume they eat raw meat for a week straight leading up to this just to get that aggressive toward the fans 😁), is actually pretty brutal sometimes... 🙂

stormywolf65 said:I’m not taking a shot at you personally. You’re out there living the dream in New York City, so you don't really get it—I’m talking about these local "die-hard fans" back home.

What was their endgame here? Honestly, I haven't got a clue... maybe they were trying to recreate that absolute chaos from the Cup finals a few years back. Remember that footage everyone saw on CNN? When those guys from the west side charged the fence and it nearly gave way on the east side? It felt like we were watching history repeat itself, and frankly, the barrier looked just as flimsy this time. If that railing had actually snapped, well... then Štico would have had to step up and show off his actual athletic talent to keep the peace. 🙂

I honestly thought we were about to see a total rerun of that old madness, but things quieted down way faster than I expected....

Just make sure you keep an eye on that mobster Mamić, and leave Štimac alone.

hehe

Petar kružić said:Nice work, man... 👍 But I actually prefer being there in person to watch the game. Back in the day, I always used to head up to the north stands...

You can see the action just fine from the north side too, and honestly, I like being part of the crowd and cheering. It’s a good balance for me. If my only goal was to watch the match, I’d probably just stay home (I live in Chicago).

Petar Kružić said:I honestly expected history to repeat itself right then and there... but things went quiet far too quickly...

And yet you’re busy keeping tabs on a mobster like Mamić while letting Štimac run wild without a second thought...

Heh...

The real tragedy is how these two collaborate behind the scenes, fixing match results whenever it suits them...👎

little_boro said:The gameplay is clear enough even from up north, and I actually enjoy being part of the crowd... it feels like a decent enough mix. If my only goal was to watch the game, I’d just stay put at home in Chicago.

offtopic

Does your name happen to start with a K?

Hey Stormy, you might want to take a look at this... It’s about that upcoming game over in Newark.

mali_boro said:You can see the game just as clearly from the east side, and honestly, I love being part of the crowd a little bit; it’s a great way to experience everything. If my only goal was to watch the match without any distractions, I’d probably just stay home in my apartment in Washington, D.C.

The energy is definitely there on the east side too—it might not be quite as intense as what you feel up north, but people are definitely cheering. It’s just that the view is simply better over here.

I’m just hoping the El Clásico in Washington, D.C. next weekend goes off without any major incidents... 🙂

Assuming, of course, that Real Madrid manages to pull off yet another victory... 🙂

Inquisitor2002 said:just another incredibly shallow contribution

but honestly, 🙄 😁

look, Inquisitor,

there’s no need for any insults—whether you mean verbal jabs or perhaps something more physical, which wouldn't surprise me one bit🙄 nor any attempts at mystification

let's set aside the specific details regarding what happened at the square for a moment, as they aren't really the point here; rather, try to grasp the fact that everyone (those who aren't just playing around with statistics) living in this city and throughout this entire country did NOT envision this version of America that you all have "provided" for us

>>so, a nation that is robustly xenophobic, mentally closed off, fearful of anything unknown or different, cluttered with various myths and pathetic nonsense—and, of course, morally and mentally disfigured and economically crippled (we all know how and for whom)

what I described above is the direct result of a very low form of nationalism, heavily infused with chauvinistic elements, which surfaced in the nineties for well-known reasons and was diligently pumped up throughout that entire decade from the very top through public discourse and every facet of social behavior...
which—believe me, you'll realize this eventually—was merely a mask used by those who truly needed it..

that scene in Times Square might have been one of the final gasps of a civic, tolerant, open-minded... well, that "other America"

the kind of America that, fundamentally, it always used to be👋

Sarah Wilson95 said:but honestly, come 🙄 😁

look, Inquisitor2002

there’s no need for slapping—whether you mean verbal jabs or perhaps something more physical, which wouldn't surprise me one bit🙄 nor any kind of mystification

let's set aside the specifics regarding what went down at Times Square; that's irrelevant here. But try to grasp that everyone (not just those playing games with statistics) in this city and this entire country DID NOT envision THIS version of America that you all have "provided" for us

>> so, in short: a robust, xenophobic, closed-minded mess, terrified of anything unknown or different, bloated with various myths and pathetic nonsense—and naturally, morally and mentally hollowed out, as well as economically (we all know how and for whom)

what I described above is the direct result of the absolute lowest form of nationalism, heavily laced with chauvinism, which surfaced in the nineties for perfectly predictable reasons and was diligently pumped up for an entire decade from the very top through public discourse and every facet of social life...
which—believe me, you'll realize this eventually—was merely a mask for those who actually needed it..

that Times Square back in 1996 might have been one of the last gasps of a civil, tolerant, open... that certain "other America"

the kind of place it always used to be👋

Could you elaborate on what exactly you mean by this "lowest form of nationalism"?

mali_boro said:why even care? you don't even go to the games anyway. why does it matter if they fight? at least things aren't like this here... if you saw what goes on in the Netherlands and other parts of the West, you'd shut up about us Americans and our fans being savages for a second.

Fighting in the Netherlands? Great idea! Let's just train our cops on how to handle our fans and then rent them out to the Dutch. I don't go to games because people fight there—sure. And who decided Americans are savages? Or that fans are? Honestly... that's just plain stupid. 🤣 🤣 🤣

dustyscout53 said:Remember that small town in the Midwest when they torched that car? There weren't any Mexicans involved—it was just local thugs fighting amongst themselves. We don't need Mexicans showing up at our games to cause chaos; two rival teams are more than enough. 😁 😁 😁

That’s why I’m telling you: let the cops do their jobs and crack down until they learn their lesson.

This is the truth.👍

Jose Chase2 said:Spot on.👍

😲 😲

Snowing in this small town in the Midwest. 😁 😁

Gimme five!

Look out the window, white 🙂

I can't stand soccer—it’s honestly exhausting watching idiots brawl over nothing. I actually sat through 'Football Factory' recently—you know, that movie about those hooligans in England—and man, what a bunch of morons. Soccer is easily the bottom of the barrel in that whole culture; people would rather go to a club than a match. And of course, they spend their time teaching kids that someone deserves a beating just because they root for a different team. It's just stupid.👎 👎 👎

revolution said:but seriously, come on🙄 😁

look, Michael Adams2

there’s no need for slapping—whether you mean verbal jabs or maybe you actually prefer the physical kind, which wouldn't surprise me one bit🙄 or any of that mystical nonsense

let's just drop the specifics about what happened at the Square; that's irrelevant here. But please, TRY to realize that everyone (and I'm not just playing with numbers) in this city and this whole country DID NOT envision THIS version of America that you guys have "provided" for us

>>so, basically, a robust, xenophobic, closed-minded mess, terrified of anything unknown or different, stuffed full of various myths and pathetic nonsense—and obviously, morally and mentally scarred, plus economically trashed (we all know how and why)

everything I wrote above is the direct result of the absolute lowest level of nationalism mixed with constant chauvinistic vibes, which bubbled up in the 90s for reasons we already know and was pumped up relentlessly all decade long from the very top through public speech and every part of daily life...
and which—believe me, you'll see this for yourself eventually> was just a mask for those who actually needed it..

that Square 1996 might have been one of the last gasps of a civil, tolerant, open-minded.. you know, that "other America"

the kind that—honestly—it always used to be👋

look, revka... you probably know it's against the rules to edit someone else's posts and that'll get you banned... so I guess this is basically a report to the mods..

and another thing... honestly, who cares if you guys didn't like America? If you hated it so much, you could've just packed up, hopped on a tractor, and headed over the Danube to find your people.. and yeah, as for America being economically ruined, we know exactly why and who to blame.. thanks to the very people whose houses we're renovating today, even though they systematically tore everything down and haven't paid back a single cent for it

..and listen, if you were scared of the unknown, that's your own problem.. if you were taught during the communist era that capitalist monsters were lurking in America and you weren't allowed to cross the border, well, that's just on you..

anyway, since we're talking about this "civil, tolerant, and open" America.. isn't its best representative the guy whose song used to play on the airwaves, that little humanistic tune "Cancer killed Dr. Franja, gently as a hand, without much struggle"? Well, if that's your idea of an open America, I guess I've got nothing left to say except I hope someone sings a similar epitaph for someone close to you on KROQ..

Jose Chase2 said:just look out the window, everything is white🙂

I can't stand soccer, and watching morons brawl over nothing is just mind-numbing... I actually sat through 'Football Factory' recently—that movie about the hooligans over in England—and honestly, what a bunch of idiots... soccer is the absolute bottom of the barrel in that whole culture; people would rather go to a strip club than a stadium... and of course, they raise their kids to believe someone deserves a beating just because they support a different team... it's pathetic...👎 👎 👎

'Football Factory' is actually a great film...😁

It captures the reality of being a hooligan perfectly... You don't just go around attacking every single fan wearing a rival jersey, you specifically hunt down the group you know is looking for trouble...

That’s really the whole point of the hooligan scene in England. They seek out "their own kind," so they aren't just beating up anyone in a different color... It's much like how things work here in America...

Soccer in Greece.

Chaos erupts in Greece following the big match
Massive backlash against the Albanian community

Violence has basically been baked into the fabric of the world's most popular sport for ages now—it's just part of the deal, I guess. We’re looking at one fatality, seven people injured, and at least 10 arrests following the riots that broke out Saturday night across several Greek cities. All this madness started after the reigning European champions lost their away game in Tirana, falling 1:2 during the opening round of World Cup qualifying.

So, you had members of the Albanian minority in Greece—decked out in flags and riding that high from the win—trying to celebrate their national team's victory, but the local Greeks weren't having any of it, leading to a massive confrontation. Things got particularly ugly in Athens over at Omonia Square, where police actually had to step in with stun grenades and a ton of tear gas just to stop the hooligans from completely overwhelming the Albanian groups. It wasn't just Athens, either—clashes popped up in Thessaloniki and even over on Corfu. Out on Zakynthos, things took a dark turn when a Greek man of American descent allegedly stabbed an Albanian man, who later succumbed to his injuries. The whole mess was fueled by both far-right extremists from the "Golden Dawn" group—who have a nasty history of targeting foreigners—as well as some leftist factions.

Things were pretty tense in North Mexico too, where the Albanian communities living in Skopje, Tetovo, Struga, and Kumanovo were celebrating the win by firing guns into the air.