Buddhism

grizli said:The truth is, most of these texts are cluttered with talk about Gods, Angels, and all those other entities.

Hardly any of them are actually PURE—free from all that unnecessary noise and distracting, fake patterns...

For instance, Ramón and a few others (maybe Germaine to a lesser extent) are the real deal. Everything else is just garbage...
(And by garbage, I mean the junk I keep stumbling upon)

Oh, well, when an enlightened master like you speaks, I guess it must be the absolute truth. We mere mortals, being so uneducated, have no choice but to bow down to your lofty wisdom and infinite knowledge. 😢 😳 😁

Quincy:

I agree—there are millions of fakes out there. So tell me, who actually counts as a real teacher?

The ones for whom no "spiritual path" even exists...

The ones where enlightenment isn't some prize won through endless labor...

Those who refuse to be shackled by rigid patterns or dogmatic rules.

The ones who don't play by the laws of cause and effect, or the concept of karma and retribution.
Those who don't point fingers at people, blaming them for their own karma.
And those who don't insist that humans possess free will...

Doesn't that all sound a bit absurd?

It’s like saying, "I'll just sit and meditate for eight hours a day, follow this specific recipe, and boom—I'm enlightened in twenty years." It’s nonsense.

Quincy:

I was asking you first. Name just one who isn't a fraud.

About 99.9999% of them aren't. It shouldn't be hard to guess.
(And obviously, I’m talking about public figures—those who have built an entire brand around themselves.)

Quincy:

But I think you mentioned Nisargadatta?

I doubt it...

If you want someone to pick apart the flaws of various "masters," ask Ivek. He's much better at finding faults than I am.

Quincy:

Alright, your turn. Name one who hasn't "done" anything.

Well, I brought up Raman myself...

Quincy:

What was that absolute predator doing, cornering a terrified seven-year-old kid without any parents around in his little criminal hideout?

🙏

Quincy:

She just seems to pick those who demonstrate some semblance of ambition and effort.

Still waiting... you haven't even managed to name a single person like that yet.

Are rumors circulating through the streets of India supposed to be proof of someone's enlightenment???

😉

Balkanian Pig said:We’d all be much better off if we spent just 15 minutes morning and night in prayer or meditation, paired with some light reading from the scriptures, holy writings, or even biographies of the saints. Honestly, it would beat this mindless keyboard smashing we're all doing here every single day. 😁

Look, you’ve clearly got your own personal mission and you're laser-focused on hitting those goals. That’s fine for you—honestly, what you're saying probably holds water in your own world. But how does any of that actually affect anyone else?

Do you honestly think those old-school masters don't offer any real value? You’re out here letting these forum idiots dictate how you think, asking for their "expert" opinions on everything, and I’m genuinely worried you might actually be taking them seriously. 😁

It’s all relative, really. It just depends on what kind of help you're actually looking for. I was specifically talking about enlightenment—you know, that idea I read somewhere that dead masters can't truly guide you through it. The theory is that you need a living master present to actually pass down that "knowledge." Since I haven't reached "awakening" myself, I have no clue if that's actually true or just some philosophical fluff. I only left that comment to see what people who consider themselves awakened, or at least on the path, had to say about it.
When it comes to life’s bigger lessons, you can find "messages" pretty much anywhere. You might hear them from someone totally unexpected, spot them in the little things around you, or even stumble upon them right here on this forum. It really all boils down to what you're looking for and what you personally need to hear right now.

"Quote:"

If there aren't any living experts left to guide us, we'll just have to rely on the wisdom of the legends who came before. It’s all about studying the greats, getting a clear vision of what we actually want to achieve, and then putting in the actual sweat equity to make it happen. Planting season is right around the corner, but the field hasn't even been tilled yet. Instead, here we are, stuck in a heated debate over the ideal hoe length and whether all this digging is actually worth the effort. 😂 They’d probably try to dig through our tea leaves too if they thought we were actually being productive on this forum during work hours.

That’s a pretty materialistic way to look at spirituality.

Time is slipping through our fingers, and life is way too short to waste.

"The goose is roasting, and I’m eyeing that drumstick." — Mark Twain 😁

You could spend thousands of lifetimes waiting around, hoping that just the sheer experience of living will slowly chip away at who you are.

This whole perspective really boils down to a belief in reincarnation.

"Quote:"

If we don't actually care about being free, and if we aren't willing to commit ourselves to the cause, then what’s the point of liberation even existing?

Honestly, you should ask yourself that. 😛 I’m not even chasing "liberation," mostly because I can't wrap my head around what exactly I’m supposed to be getting free from...

p.s. Try finding me just one single saint who actually reached the goal without putting in any work. The only one I know is Ramana, and even he was completely spontaneous about it while still teaching his students the importance of sadhana (spiritual practice).

Then again, I was reading about a different version of Ramana... 🤔

If it were meant to happen spontaneously, it would have already happened.

👍

The interest might be there, but the realization isn't. What are you going to do—sit around like a beggar waiting for someone to take pity on you (which probably won't happen) or for something to just fall into your lap?

Are you asking me, or are you really asking yourself? 🤔 Because I don't have any interest in this. 🙂

Oh, when an enlightened being such as yourself speaks, it must be the absolute, unvarnished truth. We mere mortals—uninformed, insignificant little things—have no choice but to bow before your lofty wisdom, your vast intellect, and your endless knowledge.

You don't have to accept anything, and I'm certainly not demanding it from you.😉

But let’s face it: most of these celebrity Gurus love nothing more than pinning a man's sins on his own shoulders.

😉 😁

Karen Sanchez19 said:The people for whom there is no spiritual path...

Those for whom enlightenment isn't the result of actual work...

Those who don't follow patterns or rules

Those who ignore the law of cause and effect, or the law of karma and consequence
Those who don't hold people accountable for their own karma
Those who don't claim that humans actually have free will...

Doesn't that sound a bit off?

Like, "I'm going to meditate for 8 hours every single day, and according to this recipe, I'll be enlightened in 20 years..."

99.9999% of them aren't. It’s an easy guess.
(And obviously, I'm talking about public figures who have just left a legacy behind for themselves)

I highly doubt it...

Actually, Ivan is much better at hunting down flaws in various masters; you should probably ask him instead of me..

But you mentioned Ramana yourself...

We already established that besides Ramana, one single example in all of history isn't enough—especially since he himself demanded sadhana from his students.

Everything else is just nitpicking, and I'd rather not name names. Give me one specific name of a master who did absolutely nothing. Shankara? Buddha? Jesus? Who even counts as a master to you? Are they all just fools? They all meditated, fasted, and lived simply, and they all expected things from others (just like your Ramana did). Master Gristi knows better 😂

So, out of that 99.999% of famous people who supposedly left a legacy, can you name just one who was sitting around doing nothing while everything was handed to them on a silver platter?

Karen Sanchez19 said:🙏

I’m still waiting... you haven't even named a single person who actually did that.

Since when do rumors swirling around India count as proof of someone reaching enlightenment???

😉

Think about Nisargadatta. Or let's bring up Buddha. Or Ramakrishna, Sivananda, Yogananda—any of them. Heck, pick any Christian saint or anyone at all; I can't think of a single one who reached enlightenment just by rubbing their junk. So, since I don't personally know any masters, I'm not going to sit here while some chatterbox tries to tell me there's only one "real" way.

Jade said:I was actually reading some other stuff by Ramana... 🤔

Like, specifically what?

The goose is roasting, and I'm just here for the drumstick. (by Mark Twain).

😂🙏 👍

Ask yourself that. I couldn't care less about "liberation," because I honestly can't grasp what exactly there is to be liberated from...

Misery rules everything at sixteen😁

We already established that, aside from Ramana, a single example isn't enough—especially since he actually demanded sadhana from his own students.

So, I’m asserting that 99.99% of them are frauds...

Finding someone like Ramana, let alone anyone else, is a tall order...

Not that I've devoured an endless library of books myself...

So, out of that 99.999% of public figures who left nothing but a mess behind, you're picking the one guy who was just scratching himself while the universe delivered everything to him?

No, rather from 100 minus 99.999%, which leaves 0.0001%.
That percentage is far too microscopic for me to go hunting for someone..

In your eyes, every enlightened master is legitimate... so tell me, what actual evidence do you have that they aren't just playing a part?

Karen Sanchez19 clearly knows more than I ever will.

Whether I actually know what I'm talking about is debatable... I'm just stating my piece.😁

I can’t recall a single Christian saint—any saint at all, really—who supposedly summoned a stork by rubbing their testicles.

The real question remains: DID THE STORK actually arrive?😉

As far as Christian saints are concerned, that's my stance...

Regarding these Yoga teachings—I haven't even encountered anything similar to Nanda before...
Once I've read through it—assuming I actually get around to it—I'll let you know what I think...

😁

At this point, we aren't even debating the method of enlightenment. We are questioning if enlightenment is even possible. That is my claim: 99.9999% of these "masters" are nothing but frauds.

You claim most people have reached enlightenment, but I couldn't disagree more...

So, where does that leave us?😁 😁

Balkanian Pig said:It’s true that someone like Ramana basically had it all without a guru, but I’ve always maintained that hitting that goal is pretty much impossible without one (he’s basically arguing that just because he didn't have a physical guru doesn't mean he was flying solo).

Come on, give me the exact wording!

Grizzly said:So, you think every single one of these "enlightened masters" is the real deal... but what actually gives them away? What’s the proof that they aren't just faking it?

Just a hunch, 😁
What do you think?

Balkanijan Pig said:Can you be more specific?

In one of his teachings, Raman suggests that religious texts are essentially tools designed for the human intellect. They’re useful right up until the moment you realize that pure logic won't actually take you anywhere—that no amount of mental heavy lifting can force enlightenment upon you. Once you hit that wall, you're free to set them aside. Raman wasn't one to push people toward a specific path, nor did he bother answering questions just to satisfy curiosity, which is a huge distinction. As an awakened being, he understood that everyone acts according to their own capacity; everything is already unfolding as it must. He never tried to stop people from doing what they felt was right, nor did he demand they act against their true nature. Sure, things like meditation and prayer are great for calming the mind—and we all know a centered, focused mind makes life much easier—but those aren't the keys to enlightenment. You can stay present and enjoy the moment without meditating, too. 🙂 But that's not the same thing as "awakening." That’s why Raman recommends focusing the mind on the question, "Who am I?" He explains that by doing this, you can boil down every single thought into the core "I-thought," which eventually dissolves itself. Personally, I find this kind of self-inquiry fascinating, though whether it actually works like that... I honestly don't know. It certainly hasn't done anything for me. 😁 I also remember reading that Raman emphasized that anyone can practice this self-inquiry anytime, anywhere. You don't need to drop everything, leave your family, or head off to some remote retreat to make it happen.

Sitting Bull said:Please, just give me the exact wording!

I remember something similar regarding a guru. Raman once told a woman that she didn't actually need to physically visit him for them to be together. From the perspective of an enlightened being, that makes perfect sense—they are already everywhere at once.🙂

Sitting Bull said:Please, use his exact words!

1. Philosophy:
-A happy person doesn't get lost wandering through the endless mazes of philosophy; instead, they head straight for the source where all those ideas spring from.

2. Mentor:
-Virtually every sacred text points you toward spiritual mentors. In reality, a mentor is nothing more than the very goal the seeker is hunting for. Because the seeker's mind is turned outward, the Self takes on a human form—the mentor—to help turn that focus back inward. Rumi suggests that God, the Self, or the Mentor appears in human form to dispel our ignorance, much like how a hunter might use a deer as a decoy to catch a wild one. The mentor must manifest in a physical body to shatter the seeker's illusion of being "just a body."

-I never said there was no need for a mentor (answering a question)

(He is then asked what certain teachers say about him, given that he supposedly never had a mentor)
-It all depends on your definition of a mentor; they don't necessarily have to be a person... But a mentor is absolutely essential. The Upanishads teach that no one can lead a person out of the jungle of intellect and senses except for a mentor. Therefore, a mentor is indispensable.

(I was thinking specifically of a human mentor—the Dalai Lama didn't have one)
-Maybe I had one at some point. But wasn't I singing hymns to the Himalayas? What is a mentor? A mentor is God or the Self. Usually, a person prays to God to have their wishes granted. Then comes a time when they stop praying for desires and start praying for God Himself. At that point, God reveals Himself in some form, whether human or otherwise, to guide them in response to their prayers and needs.

But he also says:

-A master exists externally only as long as a person still identifies with their body. In that capacity, they are useful for teaching the Truth about oneself. Once a student experiences the Truth firsthand and shatters the illusion of the body, they realize that the Masters are just like them—the Supreme Consciousness, which is the Self. If masters exist outside of the Self, then they aren't "real" in the ultimate sense; they are merely external supports, because anyone who arrives will eventually depart—they are transient. The fact is, the Self, the Teacher, and God are one and the same.

I'll translate what he says about Meditation too, but there's a lot of material, so this is going to take a while.

3. practice:

-Patanjali’s opening sutras are truly the peak of the entire yoga system. Every form of yoga aims for one thing: the cessation of the Mind (those fluctuations in our consciousness). You can get there through various methods mentioned in the texts by mastering the mind—essentially clearing away the clutter to keep awareness pure. It takes work, though. In fact, that very effort *is* yoga.

(My question is: I assume this effort has to happen while we are conscious, which implies that liberation can only be achieved in an awake state?)

-Exactly. Consciousness is a prerequisite for controlling the Mind; otherwise, who is the one actually putting in the effort? You can't do this while you're asleep or under the influence of a substance. Furthermore, ultimate freedom must be reached in full awareness, because Reality itself is pure consciousness.

(Answering a question from someone experiencing heat in their head during meditation)
-If you try to force concentration using only the brain, you might end up with that sensation of heat or even a headache. Real focus should flow from a heart that is fresh and revitalizing. Just relax, and the meditation will feel effortless. Keep the Mind calm by gently letting thoughts drift by without clinging to them—don't strain yourself. You'll get the hang of it soon enough.

(Question: Isn't meditation just controlling the mind, which in turn requires meditation? Doesn't that sound like a circular loop?)
-They are interdependent. Truly, meditation involves managing the Mind—maintaining a subtle alertness toward incoming thoughts. In the beginning, the struggle to control everything feels much heavier than the meditation itself, but over time, the meditation takes over and becomes effortless.

(Your Grace is necessary)
-The practice is necessary; Grace is already here.

(Are there specific words I should repeat during meditation?)
-What is meditation if not the mental repetition of a concept? It is essentially a mental Japa that begins with spoken words and eventually dissolves into the Self.

(I'm trying to eliminate my false "ego" during meditation, but I haven't had any luck so far)
-How can an "I" eliminate itself? What you need to do is find the source of that "I" and dwell within it as your true Self. Your effort can only take you so far; the Divine will take care of the rest.

(I am a beginner at meditation. I pray to the Lord to guide me. You teach us to ask "Who am I?" Can I know where that path will lead?)
-It isn't just a question to be asked; you have to dive into its meaning. Many people meditate on specific energy centers in the body until they merge with them, but sooner or later, they inevitably have to turn toward investigating their own nature. Why not start by focusing on your true essence from the very beginning until you merge with the Source?

(As far as I can see, it seems impossible to realize the Self unless a person completely stops all thoughts from arising. Am I right?)
-Not quite. You don't have to block every single thought. When you are in a deep sleep, you are completely free from thought because the "ego-thought" is absent. The moment that "ego-thought" rises upon waking, all other thoughts tend to rush in. The smartest move is to catch that primary "I-thought" and dissect it—asking "what and who is this?"—thereby preventing other thoughts from distracting you. That is where the true power and efficiency of Thinker lies in mastering the Mind.

(Which form of meditation is the best?)
-The best meditation is the one that carries over into all three states of being. It should be so intense that it leaves no room even for the thought "I am meditating." At that point, both waking and dreaming states are fully absorbed, and even deep sleep can be considered a form of meditation.

(What is the difference between Sushumna Nadi and Atmanadi?)
-Sushumna is the central energy channel that functions during yoga practices—specifically dynamic meditation—to achieve siddhis (powers), and yogis claim it terminates in the crown of the head. Atmanadi, or the flow of the soul, is the current that rises from the Heart toward the crown during static meditation on the path of knowledge, leading directly to self-realization. Ultimately, the Sushumna must merge into the Atmanadi, which supports it.

(To be continued)

Jade said:At one point, Ramana mentions that religious texts are essentially written for the human intellect. They serve us only up until the moment we realize that the mind won't actually take us anywhere—that you simply can't force enlightenment through sheer mental effort or willpower. Once you hit that realization, you're free to set them aside. Ramana never pushed anyone toward a specific path, but he wasn't one to lecture people either, which is a huge distinction. As an awakened being, he understood that everyone acts according to their own capacity; everything is already unfolding as it must. He never tried to stop people from doing what they felt was right, nor did he demand they act against their own nature. Of course, things like meditation, prayer, and similar practices are great for calming the mind. We all know that a steady, focused mind is incredibly beneficial, but those tools alone aren't going to trigger enlightenment. You can learn to stay present and enjoy every single moment without meditation. 🙂 But that’s different from "awakening." That’s why Ramana suggests focusing the mind on the inquiry, "Who am I?" He explains that by doing this, you can condense all wandering thoughts into the core "I-thought" (the source of all other thoughts), which eventually dissolves itself. Personally, I find this self-inquiry fascinating, but whether it actually works like that... I don't know. It hasn't done much for me. 😁 I also remember reading that Ramana emphasized that anyone can practice self-inquiry anytime, anywhere. There's no need to run away from your family, leave your home, or change your lifestyle to do it.

But isn't self-inquiry itself a form of work and effort? And shouldn't Ramana have explicitly told you that? How can you say that neither effort nor a teacher is necessary?

(Sri Aurobindo talks about two forces that influence yoga practice; one moves horizontally, the other vertically. I just can't wrap my head around it.)
-All forces originate from the Self, which doesn't have directions. But perhaps Sri Aurobindo is referring to the dynamic force that arises from concentration at the center of the head (or through Kundalini Shakti) versus the static force that comes from Vichara Jnana (self-inquiry) in the Heart.

(Bhagavan often speaks about Samadhi, or trance. I assume this means a total loss of physical consciousness. I'm terrified that I'll never be able to achieve that. Honestly, I'm even scared to go to sleep. Is it absolutely necessary before reaching Self-Realization?)
-(laughing) Well, you'd better grab some chloroform then! Samadhi is, in its very essence, the state of the Self. What exactly do you mean by a "total loss of physical consciousness"? You aren't imagining it's like falling into a state of catalepsy or a heavy sleep. In Samadhi, the mind is in a state of *jagrat*—awake—yet somehow free from all thoughts, enjoying the bliss of *sushupti* into which the mind has retreated. In Samadhi, the mind is so alert that it experiences Brahman. If it weren't completely awake, how could it possibly realize Brahman? In fact, it simply becomes Brahman. Does the word "trance" trigger those kinds of associations for you? If it does, then it's the wrong word for Samadhi.

(Do Karma Yogis and Bhaktas also pass through Samadhi?)
-Samadhi is an immersion into the Heart through concentration and mental control. Both Karma and Bhakta yogis reach Samadhi if they practice correctly. In reality, most of them eventually achieve liberation through Vichara.

(Mr. C is reading "Forty Verses" by Sri Bhagavan to himself in the hall. He's fascinated by the thirtieth verse. He reads it aloud and says, "Based on this verse, I see how the path must begin in the mind rather than the Heart, but Bhagawan always speaks about the Heart—maybe that's just the final stage of the practice?")
-Exactly: it has to start with the mind turned inward to counter the incoming thoughts and locate where the "I" actually resides. Once the mind dives into the Heart, we are overtaken by continuous bliss. From there, there is a sensation that isn't separate from pure consciousness; essentially, the head and the Heart become one.

Ugh, I can't keep translating this anymore. If you want me to keep going later, I can add more.