Would young people still want to move abroad today?

Ronald Castillo5 · 2004-11-12T15:58:45+00:00

So, I left America back in the fall of 1994, right after the war ended. Back then, the outlook and opportunities for a young guy weren't exactly rosy. In the S…

hiddencrane18 Member

15 messages
joined Nov 2003

#41 · Dec 10, 2004

Hey, Ronald Castillo5—long time no see...
Look, I wanted to give you my take based on where I’m actually at right now.
Back when I was in college, I used to daydream about—hell, I even planned—leaving America. But after looking at the data online and hearing stories from famous people who moved away, I realized I’d never actually go. I guess I’m just an optimist by nature, and I believe in this country. Not necessarily the government institutions, but the people who actually make the country what it is. I am deeply convinced that the current situation here in the States is just temporary, and I have both the time and the patience to wait it out. In the meantime, I work two jobs, sometimes three, pick up side gigs, and my husband and I are planning to buy an apartment. We’re doing alright—we average about 12 $0.00 a month, we save, we invest, we keep learning, and we try to enjoy life. I don't have any illusions about living abroad. I feel like no matter where you go, you're always going to be a foreigner taking someone else's job or their slice of the pie; you can never truly assimilate because you're never fully accepted. Besides, life is a bit more relaxed here.
To put it simply, I see my family's future being right here in America.

casualtrucker17 Member

10 messages
joined May 2005

#42 · Dec 11, 2004

casualtrucker17, I have to say, your comment really caught me off guard—and frankly, in a way that was quite unsettling, if I'm being honest.

Look, I was just playing a little prank using your account, so I hope you aren't holding a grudge... 😁

THE UNITED STATES IS A HORRIBLE PLACE TO LIVE

...it wasn't really worth my time to sit there and digest everything that guy thinks about America... the truth is, he wasn't raised in this country and he'll never truly mesh with the rest of us! 🙂
His whole issue is basically that he’s desperate for the spotlight, constantly fishing for attention and waiting for everyone to kiss his ass...

casualtrucker17 Member

10 messages
joined May 2005

#43 · Dec 11, 2004

...hiddencrane18, you really are quite the optimist, aren't you? But let's be realistic here—whenever there's a total overhaul of the current political establishment, things tend to move at a snail's pace. It takes time for the dust to settle. And honestly, that's exactly when you want to be positioned correctly if you're looking for a golden opportunity to strike it rich out there in the real world. 😉

Ronald Castillo5 Active MemberOP

60 messages
joined Dec 2005

#44 · Dec 11, 2004

hiddencrane18 said:Hey, Ronald Castillo5 — long time no see...

1.

Look, I’m an optimist by nature, and I truly believe in this country. Not necessarily the government as a machine, but the people who make up the nation. This current situation we're facing here in America is, I am deeply convinced, just temporary. I have both the patience and the will to wait it out..........................................

2.

I feel like no matter where you go, you're always viewed as an outsider who is somehow stealing someone else's job or their slice of the American Dream. You can never fully assimilate simply because people refuse to accept you.

Hey there, sijuxica...

I'm also an optimist at heart, deep down, but looking at things from the outside, I'd prefer to be a realist.

I don't quite get how you can separate the state as an institution from the people who run it. To me, they're one and the same... the people running the country choose the local and national officials who shape the institutions into what they are today.

You say you have the time and the will to wait for this "temporary" situation to change. But do you have any actual idea how long that wait might be? 5, 10, 25, 50 years? Man, once you put those numbers on paper, everything looks a bit different.

Let me set up a hypothetical based on your post, which I've split into two parts: your take on America, and your take on living abroad.

What do you think about the possibility that your comments are:

1. Regarding America — way too optimistic, or rather, unrealistic.

2. Regarding living abroad — way too pessimistic, or rather, unrealistic.

As for being abroad, I'm not saying there aren't places where you'll always be a stranger and never truly fit in, but where I am, I haven't felt like an outsider since day one. It's because foreigners aren't treated differently... everyone is just a customer, and customers are valued.

Actually, there are plenty of expats here from all walks of life and all over the world. I manage some British guys at work, and my boss happens to be a foreigner too... and we all get along regardless of where we're from.

Think about it this way... here in England, I can tell anyone where I'm from and it's an interesting conversation with zero issues. But if I were in San Francisco and said I was from Washington, D.C., I might get a different reaction. In a sense, as a native American, I feel more like an outsider in certain parts of my own country than I do as an expat in England.

So, maybe your perception of life abroad is slightly off, and perhaps your view of America is too, because there's often much more exclusivity and "us vs. them" mentality in our small corner of America than you'll find in England.

Please don't take this the wrong way; I think it's perfectly fine to have your own perspective on America, and I really do hope you do your best to make things better...

goldengull3 Regular

260 messages
joined Nov 2007

#45 · Dec 12, 2004

Ronald Castillo5 said:Look, honey...

I consider myself an optimist by nature—it’s baked into my soul—but externally, I try to maintain a sense of realism.

I don't quite grasp how one can separate the state as an institution from the people who comprise it. To me, they are one and the same. The individuals making up the state choose the local and national administration, which in turn shapes the very institution we live under.

You hit the nail on the head there. In a democratic society—and America IS a democracy—the government is precisely what the citizens demand, regardless of how much they complain about it afterward. It is the citizens who pull the levers, mark the ballots, and, for instance, decide in a major city to pour funding into a massive new stadium rather than into preschools and public schools.

I believe the demographic makeup of those leaving has shifted. Back in the late '90s, we saw a significant exodus of IT professionals, but since salaries in that sector have climbed significantly here in the States, far fewer people feel the need to pack their bags.

It is certainly harder to leave today because the competition is much fiercer; we now have ten new nations within the European Union to contend with.

Still, people continue to move away. Some leave because there simply isn't work available in America, or because they can't overcome hurdles like the housing market—two workers in Western Europe can earn substantially more than two workers here. Others prove themselves to be top-tier experts and get headhunted by a foreign firm's headquarters, while some simply outgrow the American landscape entirely; take physics, for example, where research resources in the US can be quite limited compared to global standards.

In my own specialized field, there are perhaps three or four major institutions in all of Europe dedicated to this work. If given the opportunity, I would depart tomorrow. I want to actually practice the discipline I spent five or six years of intense study and research mastering. As it stands, there is only one small, obscure institution in America dealing with this area, staffed by maybe two or three people with zero meaningful projects. It seems their primary function is just to draw roughly $1.25 from the federal budget to cover a handful of salaries.

Benjamin Ramos95 Member

23 messages
joined Nov 2007

#46 · Dec 12, 2004

quietmason58 said:hahaha... man is a total moron... he should just head straight back to some tiny village in the Midwest...

But honestly, what did he actually get wrong? I went back and read his very first post, and I have to say, I agree with him word for word!!

Benjamin Ramos95 Member

23 messages
joined Nov 2007

#47 · Dec 12, 2004

goldengull3 said:You’re spot on there—in a true democracy (and America certainly is one), the government is a direct reflection of what the people want. It’s funny how that works, isn't it? People often find themselves protesting against the leadership later on, but at the end of the day, the citizens are the ones pulling the levers. They’re the ones casting the ballots and deciding which lists get their support. Think about it: if a certain city decides to pour massive amounts of funding into building a flashy new NFL stadium instead of prioritizing local preschools or public schools, that was ultimately a choice made by the voters. We choose the direction we head in, one vote at a time.

Is America truly a democracy? Well, sure, on paper everything looks perfectly lined up, doesn't it? We have all the right institutions and the formal structures in place to say we are a democratic nation, but I often find myself wondering if that's where the reality ends. It’s one of those things where you look at the official documents and think, "Yep, looks good," but then you step back and look at how things actually function in practice. Is it just a matter of paperwork, or is there something deeper going on beneath the surface? 🙄

I mean, really, who was it that actually ordered the construction of such a massive stadium in the first place? If my memory serves me right, wasn't it some late dictator from back in the day?

Benjamin Ramos95 Member

23 messages
joined Nov 2007

#48 · Dec 12, 2004

Ronald Castillo5 said:Germany is definitely one of those more social-focused Western nations. But then again, that’s exactly why they’ve been dealing with such massive economic hurdles over the last decade.

The guy in this case got a severance package, sure, but it wasn't anything life-changing.

At the end of the day, money tends to vanish faster than you'd think. No amount of severance is ever going to set you up for life, is it?

Now, if you ask me, if Germany is facing real economic struggles, it’s mostly because folks from places like Mexico or Turkey move there as guest workers and end up building serious wealth—whether that’s through huge pensions or building nice houses back home. I actually live in a neighborhood full of immigrant families, and it seems like almost everyone who moves here eventually builds up some significant assets before heading back. It's a different thing entirely. Also, let's be honest: an average American isn't exactly looking to take on grueling manual labor when they could work an administrative job instead. Who else would go out and work on those offshore oil rigs if it weren't for people coming in from overseas? Even a typical local wouldn't touch a job at General Motors for $3,000 a month. Besides, if things were truly as bad as people claim, they wouldn't all be driving around in high-end Mercedes and BMWs, right? Any talk about a total crisis just doesn't seem to hold much water when you look at that. 👎

Jerry Moore2 Active Member

69 messages
joined Oct 2003

#49 · Dec 12, 2004

Benjamin Ramos95 said:Besides, if people were actually struggling, they wouldn't be out there driving nothing but Mercedes and BMWs. So yeah, any talk about a crisis is just total nonsense.👎

Look, you don't judge someone's actual net worth by what kind of car they're driving. You look at their real assets—real estate, stocks, whatever they actually own.
Anyone can lease a Mercedes on credit. Half of society is basically drowning in debt, loans, and credit card balances... it doesn't mean they're rich.

quietmason58 Newcomer

8 messages
joined Dec 2004

#50 · Dec 12, 2004

Benjamin Ramos95 said:I suppose there isn't anything incorrect about his statement. Having read his initial post, I find myself agreeing with him entirely.

Give me a break. As an immigrant myself, I find this whole perspective rather spoiled. If you move to a new country, you simply have to deal with it. You ought to accept the local way of life and integrate; otherwise, perhaps it is best to just head back home since you clearly aren't finding success here. Though, I guess that ultimately depends on a person's character or something along those lines.

Sandra Williams70 Member

45 messages
joined Jun 2010

#51 · Dec 12, 2004

Jerry Moore2 said:The entire Western world is drowning in debt—loans, credit cards, you name it.

😂
Tell them to hang in there—we'll be sending over some aid shortly.

goldengull3 Regular

260 messages
joined Nov 2007

#52 · Dec 12, 2004

goldengull3 said:😂
Tell them to hang in there; we're getting aid sent their way shortly.

I suggest we start by dispatching the American executives... 😁

Sandra Williams70 Member

45 messages
joined Jun 2010

#53 · Dec 12, 2004

goldengull3 said:I suggest we start by sending over the American executives... 😁

—and politicians, for God's sake. Those people would have managed to toss Germany into a ditch within five years.😁

goldengull3 Regular

260 messages
joined Nov 2007

#54 · Dec 12, 2004

Benjamin Ramos95 said:Sure, Germany might be facing some massive economic hurdles, but look at people from our neck of the woods—whether they're Americans or folks from Turkey—who moved there as guest workers. They managed to scrape together substantial pensions and build themselves decent little houses back home.

I have some acquaintances living in Austria; he’s an SS official working in the civil service, and she works on a factory floor. They own two nice cars, they've fully renovated a house he inherited—which involved pouring tens of thousands of dollars into an old structure—they take annual vacations plus several long weekends by the Atlantic, and they even just got back from a three-week trip to Australia.

Back here at home, we'd all be scraping by $1.75 and I honestly doubt we could manage even half of that lifestyle.

Benjamin Ramos95 Member

23 messages
joined Nov 2007

#55 · Dec 12, 2004

Jerry Moore2 said:True wealth isn't about what kind of car you're driving; it's about your savings, your real estate, and the stocks you hold.
Anyone can lease a Mercedes... half of Western society is actually drowning in debt, loans, and credit card balances.

I mean, sure, net worth includes savings, but how much can anyone actually save when salaries are what they are here? 🙄

And as for the stock market, you really need to know what you're doing and have a solid foundation in financial literacy. Plus, if you don't have at least $15,000 sitting around to play with, there's not much point in trying to play the market. 🤔

Now... whether it's a Mercedes or a house on a mortgage, it's essentially the same thing, except a car is just a depreciating asset while a house actually holds value. But let's be real: the average worker anywhere in the world living paycheck to paycheck isn't buying cars or houses in cash. Speaking of which, I remember seeing some data suggesting the average German barely manages to afford 0.3 of a house in their lifetime while cycling through 11 different cars. 🙄 So what's the situation like here? Maybe 0.1 of a home and 15 cars? 🙄 Yet, many Americans move to places like Germany dreaming they'll earn enough to buy a Mercedes and build a massive mansion back home in America. And honestly, plenty of them actually pull it off by living much more austerely in Germany despite earning higher wages than they did back home. Hmm, is it possible that the less money you have, the more you tend to spend? 😕

Benjamin Ramos95 Member

23 messages
joined Nov 2007

#56 · Dec 12, 2004

quietmason58 said:Oh, come on now... look, I’m an immigrant myself, so if you ask me, what’s being said here sounds incredibly spoiled. You move to a new country, and then what? You just have to deal with it. You accept how people live there and find your way to fit in; otherwise, maybe it's better to just head back home because things aren't going to work out for you here. But then again, I suppose it all comes down to a person's character, or who knows what else.

Yeah, I’ve skimmed through about four pages of this thread, and it seems like everything is just handed to this guy on a silver platter here in the States.😁

HAH, so do you think the UK is actually much better than America?

quietmason58 Newcomer

8 messages
joined Dec 2004

#57 · Dec 12, 2004

I suppose if you have more wealth, you naturally qualify for more credit. That’s just how things work in America. I guess banks aren't going to grant anyone a loan unless they are certain the money can actually be paid back. It's simply the way the system operates.

quietmason58 Newcomer

8 messages
joined Dec 2004

#58 · Dec 12, 2004

Benjamin Ramos95 said:Yes, I’ve read about four pages of this thread, and it seems clear to me that everything in New York is essentially being run on pure luck and grit rather than any actual system.😁

HAH, you really think the UK is significantly better than the US?

Well, that is precisely my point. People talk about corruption back home, but look at the US. We see election interference, billion-dollar corporations collapsing overnight, and the ultra-wealthy slashing their tax burdens while exploiting people all over the globe just to pad their bottom lines. Honestly, if you look at it from that perspective, maybe America isn't actually any better than what we deal with here.:-)))

goldengull3 Regular

260 messages
joined Nov 2007

#59 · Dec 12, 2004

chrooted said:The wealthier you are, the more credit you can access. That’s just how things work in America. No bank is going to hand you a loan unless they’re certain you have the means to pay it back. It's simple math.

I can't help but feel that Americans tend to be far more strategic with their borrowing than the average citizen here. They seem to prioritize investing in assets that actually hold value.

quietmason58 Newcomer

8 messages
joined Dec 2004

#60 · Dec 12, 2004

goldengull3 said:I get the impression that people in the West tend to spend their credit more sensibly than the average American citizen. They seem to prioritize investing in durable goods.

Though I suppose one shouldn't be too surprised...:-)))

Would young people still want to move abroad today?

🔗 Similar threads