Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Man, things are getting seriously sketchy over in St. Louis.

Even if we take into account all his actual blunders and those decisions that seem like massive mistakes in hindsight, Gorbachev was truly a giant of his era. He handed the entire world—and specifically the nations within the former Eastern Europe and the USSR—a genuine chance to turn their lives around for the better. Some of those countries seized the opportunity brilliantly, while others, like Russia, simply didn't...
Good grief 🤷

Jessica Peterson2 said:Even if we take into account all his actual blunders and those decisions that seem like massive mistakes in hindsight, Gorbachev was truly a giant of his era. He handed the entire world—and specifically the nations within the former Eastern Europe and the USSR—a genuine chance to turn their lives around for the better. Some of those countries seized the opportunity brilliantly, while others, like Russia, simply didn't...
Good grief 🤷

Furthermore, the concept of perestroika acted as a catalyst for a massive chain reaction across Europe and beyond. At that specific juncture in history, such thinking was incredibly progressive. The problem was that society within the USSR simply wasn't equipped for that level of transformation; it was far ahead of its time. The societies capable of embracing the idea utilized it to their advantage, whereas those that couldn't ended up spiraling into internal warfare and power struggles.

Ultimately, initiating radical change requires immense courage. But, as I have already noted, the man and his legacy warrant an entirely separate discussion.

George Robinson43 said:Rest in peace.
He delivered the final blow to the evil known as communism.

I couldn't agree more.
I remember stumbling upon an article online claiming that communism actually killed three times as many people as fascism and Nazism combined.
Communists, fascists, Nazis... they're all the same. Just different names for the same madness.
So, I have to ask: how on earth can anyone still try to defend these kinds of systems??

wiredseal7 said:RIP Gorbachev.
His attempts to fix the Soviet Union with half-baked reforms basically set the stage for this entire mess—it was the original domino effect that led us straight to this war.

It’s quite clear when you step back to look at the big picture that the collapse of the USSR was ultimately driven by Gorbachev. 😁
One prosperous, wealthy nation, once held in high regard by all its neighbors, simply collapsed under its own weight, despite possessing a sophisticated communist framework and a powerhouse economy.
Heh.

hiddeneagle98 said:The way you phrased that comment within this thread is just another version of that tired argument—you know, the one claiming Ukrainians should have just surrendered to Russia to "prevent casualties," or that the West shouldn't have stepped in to help.

It's like you're suddenly expressing shock over the deaths, as if those people somehow chose this path or supported it. Did people actually think the Russians wouldn't just toss civilians into mass graves during their "unconditionally condemned military operation" if the West and Ukraine didn't make a scene on TikTok?

Not at all.
I never wrote that, nor was I intending to.

Timothy Williams5 said:It’s quite clear when you step back to look at the big picture that the collapse of the USSR was ultimately driven by Gorbachev. 😁
One prosperous, wealthy nation, once held in high regard by all its neighbors, simply collapsed under its own weight, despite possessing a sophisticated communist framework and a powerhouse economy.
Heh.

That was exactly what Gorbachev was aiming for, though—trying to build this high-tech version of communism, only to have it fail spectacularly.

Donna Wells2 said:I couldn't agree more.
I remember stumbling upon an article online claiming that communism actually killed three times as many people as fascism and Nazism combined.
Communists, fascists, Nazis... they're all the same. Just different names for the same madness.
So, I have to ask: how on earth can anyone still try to defend these kinds of systems??

It is an objective fact that socialism was a system designed to fundamentally and systematically oppress its citizens. Mikhail Gorbachev was a man who, standing at the absolute pinnacle of power, actually recognized this. He went public, admitting the status quo was untenable and that systemic reform was the only path forward. He had the courage to initiate it. The tragedy lies in what followed. None of his predecessors even entertained the notion of reforming the state to allow for greater freedom or transparency. You have to decouple the flawed system itself from the individual—the man who correctly identified that the structure was broken and leading the nation toward ruin. If he had been motivated solely by self-interest, he wouldn't have touched a thing; the existing regime worked perfectly well for him and the established elite. He genuinely believed in the ideals, but he also believed in the people. The problem was that the people weren't quite ready for the scale of change required in the USSR. Simultaneously, there was fierce ideological opposition within the party hierarchy—bureaucrats who climbed the ladder through oppression and found their entire way of life crumbling under the weight of newfound transparency. There are endless nuances to consider.
But one thing is certain: once the era of restructuring began, nothing would ever be the same. Not even for those of us watching from other countries.

gentlerider7 said:That was exactly what Gorbachev was aiming for, though—trying to build this high-tech version of communism, only to have it fail spectacularly.

Communism failed, plain and simple, and progress is certainly not part of that equation.

Andrew Booth29 said:The goal is likely to force some kind of international oversight—you know, getting third-party controllers involved who would then refuse to disconnect the plant from the Ukrainian grid. Since the Russians haven't fully integrated it into their own network yet, they’re stuck carrying the load. It’s probably just technicalities—you can't exactly just leave a massive power plant running without any consumers to take the output, right?

A nuclear plant isn't exactly a light switch you can just flick off, is it? Even when a reactor is "shut down," you still have to keep cooling it for a very long time. And to maintain that cooling, you need electricity, which means you simply cannot detach it from the grid. Diesel generators are a last resort and have extremely limited capacity, especially for a massive facility like this—one with six reactors (by comparison, a site like the one near the Crater might only have one).
Similarly, you can't just plug it into a different grid; you need somewhere to send all that immense power being generated by so many reactors. If the only transmission lines available run toward Crimea and Russia, that's almost certainly nowhere near enough capacity.
Furthermore, the energy demands in Crimea are likely far too low to absorb everything that plant produces; they’d probably need to reroute the power into the Russian grid, assuming such transmission lines even exist in the first place. The plant and its surrounding infrastructure were designed specifically to feed the Ukrainian grid, not to export electricity to Russia, 186 miles let alone anything further afield.
There is no doubt that the long-term goal for the Russians is to divert power from the plant toward Crimea and into Russia, but achieving that requires an enormous amount of complex rerouting and switching. And how on earth are they supposed to pull all that off in the middle of a war zone while shells are flying everywhere?

Kate Cook27 said:I actually have a contact close to the situation, and they're saying both sides are firing away. It's absolute madness. Honestly, I agree with what was said about why the Ukrainians are shooting. To me, it just seems crazy.

It is madness, undeniably. However, I suspect the actual danger might be less severe than it appears at first glance. The reactors themselves are heavily fortified within concrete containment structures, and it would take quite a few direct hits to actually breach them. Besides, I assume the objective isn't to blow the reactors sky-high, but rather to disrupt operations and effectively force the plant to remain tied to the Ukrainian electrical system.

steelheron25 said:A nuclear plant isn't exactly a light switch you can just flick off, is it? Even when a reactor is "shut down," you still have to keep cooling it for a very long time. And to maintain that cooling, you need electricity, which means you simply cannot detach it from the grid. Diesel generators are a last resort and have extremely limited capacity, especially for a massive facility like this—one with six reactors (by comparison, a site like the one near the Crater might only have one).
Similarly, you can't just plug it into a different grid; you need somewhere to send all that immense power being generated by so many reactors. If the only transmission lines available run toward Crimea and Russia, that's almost certainly nowhere near enough capacity.
Furthermore, the energy demands in Crimea are likely far too low to absorb everything that plant produces; they’d probably need to reroute the power into the Russian grid, assuming such transmission lines even exist in the first place. The plant and its surrounding infrastructure were designed specifically to feed the Ukrainian grid, not to export electricity to Russia, 186 miles let alone anything further afield.
There is no doubt that the long-term goal for the Russians is to divert power from the plant toward Crimea and into Russia, but achieving that requires an enormous amount of complex rerouting and switching. And how on earth are they supposed to pull all that off in the middle of a war zone while shells are flying everywhere?

It is madness, undeniably. However, I suspect the actual danger might be less severe than it appears at first glance. The reactors themselves are heavily fortified within concrete containment structures, and it would take quite a few direct hits to actually breach them. Besides, I assume the objective isn't to blow the reactors sky-high, but rather to disrupt operations and effectively force the plant to remain tied to the Ukrainian electrical system.

Nuclear reactors don't actually produce electricity; they drive electrical generators. If you disconnect the generator from the power grid, nothing dangerous happens—aside from the loss of potential energy, of course. Essentially, the turbine-generator setup just spins in neutral.

wiredseal7 said:RIP Gorbachev.
His attempts to fix the Soviet Union with half-baked reforms basically set the stage for this entire mess—it was the original domino effect that led us straight to this war.

If you ask me, the real root cause here is just the Russian mindset. They act like bullies and savages, trying to force their way back onto the world stage just because they have a massive amount of territory. It's pure ego driven by geography.

The USSR (much like America) collapsed because it was built on a foundation of repression. Without that constant crackdown, the whole system couldn't even function. Add to that an economic model that left people bordering on poverty, and you’ve got a recipe for total citizen revolt.

And let's not even get started on how they tried to force a bunch of different ethnicities into one single Russian identity—you see the fallout of that clearly in how they colonized the Baltic states, where the influx of Russian settlers still causes headaches today.

Joseph Doyle5 said:Nuclear reactors don't actually produce electricity; they drive electrical generators. If you disconnect the generator from the power grid, nothing dangerous happens—aside from the loss of potential energy, of course. Essentially, the turbine-generator setup just spins in neutral.

Reactors produce heat. Thanks for the correction.
It’s true that disconnecting the generator from the grid won't cause any immediate danger to the generator itself. However, the reactor is still churning out massive amounts of heat, isn't it? You absolutely have to cool it down. To manage that, you need the full strength of all those auxiliary systems, which, in the long run, you'll need to keep powered up via the grid anyway.
Better now?

Timothy Williams5 said:It’s quite clear when you step back to look at the big picture that the collapse of the USSR was ultimately driven by Gorbachev. 😁
One prosperous, wealthy nation, once held in high regard by all its neighbors, simply collapsed under its own weight, despite possessing a sophisticated communist framework and a powerhouse economy.
Heh.

It was precisely because of Gorbachev that he went on to trigger all those subsequent conflicts and wars.

Armed conflicts in the Baltic states following their declarations of independence (ethnic Russian uprisings followed by Soviet military intervention).

1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

It’s been constant. Armed clashes in Kyrgyzstan vs. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan vs. Tajikistan, along with continuous ethnic strife in those regions.

- 1987-... Azerbaijan vs. Armenia. Ethnic cleansing in both countries. The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, the occupation of parts of Azerbaijan by Armenia, and the ongoing de-occupation efforts regarding the "Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh."

- 1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

- 1989-1992. Moldova vs. the self-proclaimed PNR: Russians, Russian "volunteers," and the Russian military. The creation of the unrecognized PMR.

- 1990. Massacre of Uzbeks in Osh (Kyrgyzstan within the USSR).

- 1990-1997. Civil war in Tajikistan. A ceasefire was eventually signed.

- 1990-1992. Moldova vs. the ethnic Gagauz and "volunteers" from Transnistria. It ended relatively peacefully.

- 1991-1996. Russia vs. Chechnya. The creation of the unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

- 1992. Armed internal conflict in Ingushetia vs. South Ossetia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia.

- 1999-2009. Russia vs. Chechnya. Chechnya's return to the Russian Federation, though in reality, the conflict persisted until 2017.

- 2008. Russia vs. Georgia. Russia occupied about 20% of Georgian territory and subsequently recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- 2014. Russia vs. Ukraine. Occupation and annexation of Crimea by Russia. The creation of the unrecognized LPR and DPR in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

2022-... Russia vs. Ukraine. Still ongoing.

Jessica Peterson2 said:It was precisely because of Gorbachev that he went on to trigger all those subsequent conflicts and wars.

Armed conflicts in the Baltic states following their declarations of independence (ethnic Russian uprisings followed by Soviet military intervention).

1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

It’s been constant. Armed clashes in Kyrgyzstan vs. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan vs. Tajikistan, along with continuous ethnic strife in those regions.

- 1987-... Azerbaijan vs. Armenia. Ethnic cleansing in both countries. The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, the occupation of parts of Azerbaijan by Armenia, and the ongoing de-occupation efforts regarding the "Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh."

- 1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

- 1989-1992. Moldova vs. the self-proclaimed PNR: Russians, Russian "volunteers," and the Russian military. The creation of the unrecognized PMR.

- 1990. Massacre of Uzbeks in Osh (Kyrgyzstan within the USSR).

- 1990-1997. Civil war in Tajikistan. A ceasefire was eventually signed.

- 1990-1992. Moldova vs. the ethnic Gagauz and "volunteers" from Transnistria. It ended relatively peacefully.

- 1991-1996. Russia vs. Chechnya. The creation of the unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

- 1992. Armed internal conflict in Ingushetia vs. South Ossetia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia.

- 1999-2009. Russia vs. Chechnya. Chechnya's return to the Russian Federation, though in reality, the conflict persisted until 2017.

- 2008. Russia vs. Georgia. Russia occupied about 20% of Georgian territory and subsequently recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- 2014. Russia vs. Ukraine. Occupation and annexation of Crimea by Russia. The creation of the unrecognized LPR and DPR in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

2022-... Russia vs. Ukraine. Still ongoing.

It is good that you pointed out these facts—things we had forgotten, or things some people never even knew in the first place.

Jessica Peterson2 said:It was precisely because of Gorbachev that he went on to trigger all those subsequent conflicts and wars.

Armed conflicts in the Baltic states following their declarations of independence (ethnic Russian uprisings followed by Soviet military intervention).

1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

It’s been constant. Armed clashes in Kyrgyzstan vs. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan vs. Tajikistan, along with continuous ethnic strife in those regions.

- 1987-... Azerbaijan vs. Armenia. Ethnic cleansing in both countries. The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, the occupation of parts of Azerbaijan by Armenia, and the ongoing de-occupation efforts regarding the "Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh."

- 1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

- 1989-1992. Moldova vs. the self-proclaimed PNR: Russians, Russian "volunteers," and the Russian military. The creation of the unrecognized PMR.

- 1990. Massacre of Uzbeks in Osh (Kyrgyzstan within the USSR).

- 1990-1997. Civil war in Tajikistan. A ceasefire was eventually signed.

- 1990-1992. Moldova vs. the ethnic Gagauz and "volunteers" from Transnistria. It ended relatively peacefully.

- 1991-1996. Russia vs. Chechnya. The creation of the unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

- 1992. Armed internal conflict in Ingushetia vs. South Ossetia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia.

- 1999-2009. Russia vs. Chechnya. Chechnya's return to the Russian Federation, though in reality, the conflict persisted until 2017.

- 2008. Russia vs. Georgia. Russia occupied about 20% of Georgian territory and subsequently recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- 2014. Russia vs. Ukraine. Occupation and annexation of Crimea by Russia. The creation of the unrecognized LPR and DPR in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

2022-... Russia vs. Ukraine. Still ongoing.

That is merely a brief overview of the grim reality of the "Russian world." Problems are largely manufactured and then "resolved" through various "interventions" and "special operations." Negotiations usually only begin after countless casualties have been sustained on both sides of the conflict.

Jessica Peterson2 said:It was precisely because of Gorbachev that he went on to trigger all those subsequent conflicts and wars.

Armed conflicts in the Baltic states following their declarations of independence (ethnic Russian uprisings followed by Soviet military intervention).

1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

It’s been constant. Armed clashes in Kyrgyzstan vs. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan vs. Tajikistan, along with continuous ethnic strife in those regions.

- 1987-... Azerbaijan vs. Armenia. Ethnic cleansing in both countries. The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, the occupation of parts of Azerbaijan by Armenia, and the ongoing de-occupation efforts regarding the "Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh."

- 1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

- 1989-1992. Moldova vs. the self-proclaimed PNR: Russians, Russian "volunteers," and the Russian military. The creation of the unrecognized PMR.

- 1990. Massacre of Uzbeks in Osh (Kyrgyzstan within the USSR).

- 1990-1997. Civil war in Tajikistan. A ceasefire was eventually signed.

- 1990-1992. Moldova vs. the ethnic Gagauz and "volunteers" from Transnistria. It ended relatively peacefully.

- 1991-1996. Russia vs. Chechnya. The creation of the unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

- 1992. Armed internal conflict in Ingushetia vs. South Ossetia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia.

- 1999-2009. Russia vs. Chechnya. Chechnya's return to the Russian Federation, though in reality, the conflict persisted until 2017.

- 2008. Russia vs. Georgia. Russia occupied about 20% of Georgian territory and subsequently recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- 2014. Russia vs. Ukraine. Occupation and annexation of Crimea by Russia. The creation of the unrecognized LPR and DPR in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

2022-... Russia vs. Ukraine. Still ongoing.

It honestly seems more like Gorbachev simply lost his grip on the situation entirely.
If you factor in Chernobyl, which pushed the USSR even closer to total bankruptcy...
Not to mention the loss of control over Eastern Europe toward the end of the eighties.

We were lucky it ended the way it did. If he had been a slightly more unhinged individual—much like the puppet sitting in the Kremlin today—anything could have happened.

Jessica Peterson2 said:It was precisely because of Gorbachev that he went on to trigger all those subsequent conflicts and wars.

Armed conflicts in the Baltic states following their declarations of independence (ethnic Russian uprisings followed by Soviet military intervention).

1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

It’s been constant. Armed clashes in Kyrgyzstan vs. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan vs. Tajikistan, along with continuous ethnic strife in those regions.

- 1987-... Azerbaijan vs. Armenia. Ethnic cleansing in both countries. The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, the occupation of parts of Azerbaijan by Armenia, and the ongoing de-occupation efforts regarding the "Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh."

- 1989. Uzbekistan within the USSR. Massacres of ethnic Meshetian Turks and their subsequent expulsion.

- 1989-1992. Moldova vs. the self-proclaimed PNR: Russians, Russian "volunteers," and the Russian military. The creation of the unrecognized PMR.

- 1990. Massacre of Uzbeks in Osh (Kyrgyzstan within the USSR).

- 1990-1997. Civil war in Tajikistan. A ceasefire was eventually signed.

- 1990-1992. Moldova vs. the ethnic Gagauz and "volunteers" from Transnistria. It ended relatively peacefully.

- 1991-1996. Russia vs. Chechnya. The creation of the unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

- 1992. Armed internal conflict in Ingushetia vs. South Ossetia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia.

- 1992-2008. Georgia vs. the self-proclaimed Abkhazia: Abkhazians and Russian "volunteers." The creation of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia.

- 1999-2009. Russia vs. Chechnya. Chechnya's return to the Russian Federation, though in reality, the conflict persisted until 2017.

- 2008. Russia vs. Georgia. Russia occupied about 20% of Georgian territory and subsequently recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- 2014. Russia vs. Ukraine. Occupation and annexation of Crimea by Russia. The creation of the unrecognized LPR and DPR in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

2022-... Russia vs. Ukraine. Still ongoing.

I honestly don't follow what the poet was getting at here.
Is Gorbachev really the root cause of all this unrest and warfare?

steelheron25 said:It honestly seems more like Gorbachev simply lost his grip on the situation entirely.
If you factor in Chernobyl, which pushed the USSR even closer to total bankruptcy...
Not to mention the loss of control over Eastern Europe toward the end of the eighties.

We were lucky it ended the way it did. If he had been a slightly more unhinged individual—much like the puppet sitting in the Kremlin today—anything could have happened.

To be fair, he never really had it to begin with. 🙂
By the time he took power in 1985, the USSR was already deep in the endgame of economic and financial collapse, internal strife, crumbling social structures, and the inevitable disintegration of the union.

Timothy Williams5 said:I honestly don't follow what the poet was getting at here.
Is Gorbachev really the root cause of all this unrest and warfare?

No, he isn't.
😬

Dictators who just want to kiss ass always need a scapegoat—some individual or group to blame for everything. Especially if they’re perceived as being weak.