29 posts shown.
It’s that relentless, looping kind of rumination—that endless cycle of asking "why?" over and over again...
In reality, those questions don't actually have answers; they aren't even true questions, but rather just manifestations of guilt and shame, acting as if we’ve committed some unforgivable sin that we simply cannot find it in ourselves to forgive. We fall into the trap of hunting for intellectual answers when what we really need to offer is a way to make amends.
Why does the shame hit so hard?
Because we are constantly chasing validation and visibility—which, let's face it, we either never received or firmly believe we didn't—so we end up exposing our raw selves to everyone and everything around us. When we get rejected or ignored, the shame sets in, followed immediately by the crushing guilt of why we ever opened up in the first place instead of just keeping our mouths shut. This leads to self-isolation and loneliness, which eventually drives us to a breaking point where we start exposing ourselves all over again, effectively trapping ourselves in a vicious, repetitive loop. It’s the same cycle, starting from zero, every single time.
Ultimately, you're left with escalating rumination and a mountain of unanswered questions, while underneath it all, the shame and guilt continue to fester subconsciously.
So, how do you break out of this?
You have to realize that these intrusive thoughts aren't actually looking for an answer; it isn't necessarily some clinical OCD issue, but rather a fundamental inability to offer yourself the solution, which is forgiveness. It’s as if we refuse to grant ourselves absolution for what we did (or think we did, which doesn't even matter), leading us to be far too self-critical; we use rumination as a tool to try and prove to ourselves that we didn't actually do anything wrong.
It is quite literally a divine war raging within the soul. Some might call it a conflict between the ego and the essence—though I don't particularly buy into that theory—but it feels more like a deep, ancient vendetta...
One simply has to accept that emotions are more powerful than our logic, and that the "smarter" part of us—the ego—needs to yield. You have to apologize to yourself (the ego essentially apologizing to the emotions) and then present a solution, a way to fix things if it's even possible. It’s like trying to reason with a small child.
That is how you end the war of rumination: by shifting your focus toward fixing the situation. Think of a kid coming home from school after they've truly messed up; you don't scream at them or fight with them, you just give them a hug and sit down to talk through how to make it right. And hey, why not take a break, grab an ice cream, or maybe a beer, and deal with the mess without all the unnecessary drama.
I hope this helps you out, assuming this is even the core of your problem. If not, perhaps I've helped someone else reading this. Or perhaps I haven't helped anyone at all except myself. Well, why not!
Carl Rivera43 said:Do you ever feel like your brain is just... too full? Like there are way too many thoughts running at once?
What can you actually do about it? How do you rewire yourself to stop those ugly, depressing memories from constantly popping up?
I’ve always been a pretty sensitive guy. I really don't do well with pressure, and honestly, I can't stand conflict. Watching people argue just drains me.
I've noticed lately that all these heavy, depressive memories are hitting me way too often. Any tips on how to regulate that?
hey boss
You really can't catch a break, can you?
Maybe it's deep-seated guilt or shame that's messing with your head? Perhaps one part of you is constantly blaming another part for some past mistake or embarrassment? Or maybe it's more like an internal civil war, where different sides of your personality just refuse to forgive one another.
Stop struggling against the current and thrashing around, because the more you fight it, the faster you’re going to sink.
It’s exactly like getting stuck in quicksand: the more you flail, the deeper you get pulled down.
Regarding the depression—it could be a genetic predisposition, or perhaps you’ve just been stuck in this rut for so long that your brain chemistry has fundamentally shifted. Antidepressants are really only meant for acute crises. Are you actually depressed, or are you just profoundly frustrated and sad?
As for anxiety, it’s essentially the offspring of fear. What is it you’re actually afraid of? When that anxiety hits, stop and ask yourself: "What am I terrified of right this second?" You don't solve anxiety with a pill; you solve it with self-awareness. Medication is just first aid; eventually, you have to face your fears head-on.
To circle back to my original point, it seems obvious that by trying to force your way out of this entirely on your own, your body is simply rejecting your efforts and resisting your actions. So, ask yourself: what would actually make me happy right now? Or even better: what is truly driving me crazy in my life?
Look, you aren't going to find the answers from some therapist or in a bottle of pills; the answers are inside you, not outside. My advice is to stop beating yourself up by doing things you hate and stop searching for answers in all the wrong places. Instead, just answer those two questions I mentioned above. Try using your imagination. Dream about everything and anything, pay attention to how your body reacts to those thoughts, and if something feels right, try turning it into reality.
Good luck.
rapidmaker15 said:I did a little digging into narcissistic personality types—mostly just some random sites that popped up on Google, which aren't exactly peer-reviewed medical journals, I know—🙂 and honestly, none of it rings true for me. It says things like, "They believe they are superior to others, constantly comparing themselves, boasting, feeling envious, struggling to focus on work, draining people, exploiting others..." Well, if I actually fit that description and just haven't realized it yet, then my issues go way deeper than just being emotionally detached.😵
If I were you, I’d stop relying on Google. Not every narcissist is an exploitative, lying, cheating, manipulative, moronic, energy-vampire, lowlife jerk... Most of what you see on YouTube—and from what I’ve gathered, almost everything out there—focuses exclusively on malignant narcissists.
There are also benign types: brilliant, honest, respectable, progressive, hardworking, and focused individuals. They don't manipulate, lie, or exploit anyone; they aren't deviants, because let's be real, we're all a little bit deviant in our own ways.
It all comes down to upbringing and environment, and certainly genetics too, though I won't get sidetracked into that debate.
However, the common thread linking both groups is anger and emptiness. Followed by a total lack of empathy, an inability to exist in solitude—essentially a dependency on other people's emotions. They get bored easily and are constantly hunting for the next thrill. And last but certainly not least: a complete absence of guilt!
Have you ever stayed awake at night because you knew you had hurt someone so deeply? Have you ever felt that physical knot in your stomach for days on end because you caused someone pain? Have you? What did you actually do to make amends? How long did your apology last? Did you ever actually offer to fix the situation—meaning, did you spend entire days obsessing over how, when, and in what way to provide a solution?
How is it that you feel no remorse for your parents? How can you not call them, knowing full well they are suffering because of you? How can you not care?
Depression and anger are inextricably linked.
Have you ever lived with a boyfriend in the same apartment for more than two months? How was it? How did you feel? Which emotions took over? How did you feel in the morning when you woke up next to him? Were you affectionate, or did you practically jump out of bed? And at night, did you actually want to sit and watch TV with him, or did you just flee to sleep?
I suppose that's enough questions for now. 🙂
Donna White50 said:I know this guy from my support group who is just completely disconnected from his own feelings. He's a decent enough dude—has a job, plays in a band, hangs out with people, life is going fine—but he can't remember anything about his childhood and isn't even capable of digging into his own emotions. It’s like he’s just handicapped in that department. That whole side of his personality doesn't even seem to exist. And no, he's not a narcissist, he just... literally doesn't have the vocabulary for emotional stuff.
Some people just disconnect and repress parts of themselves for all sorts of reasons—it doesn't always have to be some massive trauma, you know? They just operate that way.
Narcissists, though... they're such incredibly narrow-minded people, it almost makes you feel bad for them. Their fragile egos are so hyper-focused on maintaining this fake image of superiority that their constant ego bruises, their sensitivity to any criticism, and that obsession with status and rigid little rituals... it’s almost laughable. They're like parrots in a gilded cage, constantly repeating "I'm the best, I'm irresistible, tell me I'm amazing..." over and over.
I see what you're getting at here: if they aren't malignant narcissists, then they're fine, right? Well, not quite.
Narcissists can't stomach two things: questions and solitude. Why? It's simple: because in both scenarios, they are forced to confront themselves. They encounter the one thing they fear most: their own being. They find endless ways to evade this—work, social circles, hobbies, personal grooming... anything to avoid being alone with themselves.
Because when you are truly alone, whether we like it or not, the feelings start leaking out; you stop looking outward and start looking inward. And inside, there are heavy traumas lurking. Some actually hear the sounds of a small child crying and wailing; some experience hallucinations of people standing before them, laughing and watching; some feel nothing but pure terror; some start trembling and spiral into panic; in others, a sudden, inexplicable rage erupts out of nowhere. In milder cases, they just end up restless and moody.
That is a terrifying prospect for anyone, let alone someone who has absolutely no concept of how to process emotions! This is why they are constantly hunting for new crowds, new faces, new challenges, and new thrills. When that isn't enough or doesn't come naturally, they begin to lie and manipulate just to stay included. The distinction between "benign" narcissists (those you'd call "okay") and the malignant ones (who lie and manipulate) is often just a matter of circumstance, timing, and the sheer intensity of what they feel when they are alone. Since they lack—or rather, have suppressed—emotional depth, they also lack a sense of guilt. Consequently, the slide from a benign state to a malignant one is a very short one indeed.
We could go on about this forever, and one post isn't nearly enough, but it's worth adding that they are notoriously difficult to treat precisely because they cannot tolerate the very questions that might lead them toward deep psychosis. Most therapists won't take on that kind of responsibility, so treatment drags on for years and rarely results in a cure. However, those few therapists with more courage sometimes manage to make headway. Regressive hypnosis can be an effective route in these cases—it essentially bypasses the patient's defenses, working without the interference of their conscious questioning.
The one asking the questions is the one driving the conversation, effectively seizing the upper hand. Narcissists have this pathological need to micromanage every single interaction—they must dominate both themselves and everyone else—which is precisely why they suppress any semblance of true emotion; they are deathly afraid of being vulnerable or showing their soul to anyone.
Don't even think about sitting there expecting an actual answer from them.
They’re the ones doing all the interrogating! 🙂
The fundamental flaw in this entire narrative is quite simple:
rapidmaker15 said:I’m 35 years old, and I just don't feel like I have enough emotional depth inside me. Naturally, that ends up bleeding into my personal life...
To give you some context: I’m an extrovert—I have plenty of friends and I genuinely love being social. I enjoy meeting new people, I like being noticed, and I appreciate being liked by others. I’ve got several solid, long-term friendships under my belt. Despite all that, I can't stand it when people touch me, or when they get too deep into my personal space. I'm not into kissing, hugging, or even those overly affectionate little gestures. For me, a handshake is pretty much the limit of acceptable physical contact. When it comes to romantic relationships, things are slightly better, but I just can't seem to sustain a long-term
connection. It’s hard for me to actually *like* someone enough to want something more, and even when I do find someone appealing, that feeling is never intense or strong enough to make me want to stay forever. As I've gotten older, these relationships seem to be getting shorter. It’s as if I simply lack the capacity to love with enough intensity—it feels like there’s an emotional void where those feelings should be. I don't have that urge to cuddle, nor do I feel the need to share my inner world with anyone. I love sex, but I view it more as a physical act rather than this whole "making love" process; my goal is just the physical release, which I enjoy purely for the sensation, not because I'm looking for a deeper bond—though, I suppose I could never bring myself to have a one-night stand with a stranger. Given how things are going, I’ll probably end up alone, and I’m honestly not sure if that’s what I actually want... how am I supposed to build an emotional connection with someone else when I haven't even managed to achieve that with my own inner circle?
If we were to swap that out for
"I'm an introvert, I don't have a single friend, I hate meeting anyone, I've never managed to build a long-term friendship, I don't care if anyone likes me, and I have zero interest in socializing..."
then the whole premise would actually make sense.
What you're describing sounds like a fear of intimacy—where physical touch is merely the "visible" symptom. Either you were smothered with affection as a child or perhaps neglected entirely, leading you to wall off your inner self behind reinforced concrete. However, you aren't even being critical enough yet; some people lack sexual impulses altogether, such as asexual individuals, while others struggle to connect with their gendered identity, like homosexuals.
There is still hope for you.
What you call extroversion is nothing more than the secondary extroversion of an introvert (essentially, you talk a lot without actually saying anything). What you label as friendship is merely acquaintance, because true friendship requires intimacy—that exchange of emotional connection where physical touch is a natural consequence. To embrace a true friend, to feel their warmth and presence... (though, let's be honest, if it ends up in bed, then there was no friendship between a man and a woman to begin with).
You have plenty of acquaintances and you're desperate for more. It’s obvious. Subconsciously, you can never have enough people around you because you haven't achieved intimacy with any of them, and you're searching for someone to finally satisfy your soul. In reality, you would probably be perfectly content with just one or two close friends. Real ones.
Technically speaking, it's a "splitting" of the soul and the ego. You exist in your own world, trapped in your own head and your own thoughts; since you aren't intimate with yourself, you cannot be intimate with anyone else. You don't truly feel, nor do you allow others to feel. Everyone else is simply a threat lurking outside the walls of your reinforced concrete fortress.
Good luck!
Olivia Smith2 said:I’ve been talking about this for days with a few friends—people who haven't dealt with mental health struggles and can't quite grasp what I'm going through right now. That’s why I’m turning to you all; I’m hoping for some constructive advice, and maybe—if I’m being honest—just a little bit of support.
For those who missed my previous posts here, here is the situation: about two years ago, I went through a psychotic episode. I was on heavy medication at first, then gradually tapered down until I reached a somewhat stable state. However, alongside that past episode, I developed generalized anxiety disorder, which—it feels to me—is actually causing more damage.
Right now, I find myself in a really difficult chapter of my life. The psychosis hit shortly after I graduated from college. During my studies, there were so many opportunities on the table—everything from grad school scholarships to high-level career paths. In short, a real career was within reach. But the psychosis stalled everything. My father—who has always been incredibly supportive and was planning to help me financially so I could build a solid foundation for my career—was understanding about it all. He even found me a job, though I specifically asked for something with very light professional demands and reduced hours. I had already essentially written off my career prospects, just trying to scrape by because of the cognitive deficits I was feeling. It’s been like this for several years.
After work, I just lie in bed. I don't really have hobbies; I occasionally see someone, but my emotions feel totally numbed out. I spend my time idling and making vague plans for some distant future when "everything finally falls into place." Essentially, I'm just stuck. A few months ago, I started having these recurring dreams about getting older—about life passing me by while I remain completely stationary. Those dreams were the breaking point; I'm starting to feel this internal drive to move, especially since I've been living in chronic poverty and total hopelessness.
I've been speaking with my psychiatrist, who encourages me by saying I'm intellectually very strong, and my boss, who told me he’s "finally glad to see me snap out of it and stop wasting my talent." Suddenly, overnight, I’m starting to receive offers that most people would kill for—opportunities they’ve spent years working toward. They’re practically being served to me on a silver platter because I made such a great impression during my time in school and early work. The problem is, I feel like I don't even have the strength to pick up the plate.
I am being offered a great job along with a scholarship for further education. Ever since the offer came in, I haven't been able to sleep properly. The moment I heard the news, my ears felt clogged, my thoughts turned into complete chaos, and my concentration plummeted to the point where I can barely read a few sentences. It feels like my own body is sabotaging itself, and I honestly don't know what to do.
I'm glad that I'm finally motivated and that I actually *want* to get out of bed, but I’m haunted by massive questions: CAN I ACTUALLY HANDLE THESE NEW AND SERIOUS CHALLENGES, AND WILL I DESTROY MY HEALTH BY TRYING?
I'm paralyzed. I'm being handed opportunities that any "normal" person would grab in a heartbeat, but I'm not normal. I'm struggling with intense anxiety.
People tell me that, in the end, I have nothing to lose—that I should just go for it because they don't see any "glitch" in me that would hold me back. But I feel that glitch deep inside. I am terrified of failing and of letting these opportunities slip away.
Does anyone have any advice? I'll take anything. Are there any general trends or statistics regarding people with psychological struggles when it comes to handling complex tasks and advanced learning?
Ever since this career wind was blown in my direction, I've lost all sense of time. I'm completely frazzled, spiraling through hundreds of different scenarios in my head—some of them truly irrational. What should I do?
HELP!
For the professionals: I'm currently taking 1x 150 mg Quetiapine SR, 2x 0.5 Klonopin, and 1x 75 mg Pregabalin.
But I have to ask: why on earth are you still asking basic questions on a forum when you've been on this treatment plan for over two years now?
I honestly don't know; two years is plenty of time to learn something—about the world or about yourself. If you're supposedly doing well with the learning part, why haven't you bothered to study your own emotions or your own psyche?
Seriously, we're talking about two full years, not some forty-eight-hour stint. In my eighteen months of dealing with this, I’ve practically devoured psychology textbooks, practiced meditation, and done the deep work of understanding myself, my family, and my surroundings.
By now, you really should realize that a career won't bring you any peace if it clashes with who you actually are; it will just trigger anxiety, depression, and panic attacks. Not to mention the splitting, depersonalization, derealization, and neurosis—all of which, based on what you've told us, you're already struggling with.
Maria Price3 said:Which previous posts? I'm lost.
I suppose I see guilt as the fallout from doing something wrong—either to myself or someone else—where I end up regretting it later. Or, it's the reaction to being hurt by someone else, whether they meant to or not. You get angry at them, and when you can't actually lash out or settle the score, you turn that frustration inward. You start blaming yourself—thinking, "How could I have been such an idiot to let them play me like that?"—and then you basically punish yourself. It’s like adding insult to injury, over and over again...
Call it whatever you want—self-forgiveness, or just accepting that "I was acting crazy because I didn't know any better." Maybe the other people involved were just as lost in their own mess and didn't realize the collateral damage they were causing. Or, if they did it on purpose, well, let them go be miserable somewhere else. I'm done with the endless rumination and chewing on things that should have been swallowed and forgotten ages ago (or at least, I'm trying to stop doing that). I don't know how I finally got there—maybe it was just realizing I have much more important things to do than obsess over feelings that might be, well, overrated. Like my therapist once told me, just "dial down the intensity." 😁 🙂
I see where you're coming from, but I have completely reframed my perspective on guilt: what it actually is and how to move past it. I laid out the whole process in my comment under number 7.
It seems guilt isn't really about what happened in the past, but rather about what is happening right now. Give it a shot and see. For me, it didn't just help; it allowed me to finally shake the whole thing off for good.
P.S. If you want to dive deeper into this, feel free to shoot me a private message.
Dana Davis5 said:This is such a great topic, though I honestly think we’re all just guessing here... just throwing out little fragments of thought... To me, the whole idea of "forgiving yourself" or trying to work through guilt feels almost masochistic—like a totally misguided way to handle things. We aren't saints, after all; we're just regular people tripping up over big or small mistakes every single day... there's really no reason to put yourself through some kind of mental penance because of it.
When you're talking about those massive errors or total delusions, I feel like you don't even need to judge yourself or offer forgiveness—life has already handed down its verdict. For instance, if someone loses their entire social circle because of that impulsivity mentioned in the opening post... well, that's the consequence right there.
I mean, what exactly is there to forgive when every single move you make triggers a reaction from everyone else anyway? It's all connected...
It almost feels pointless to forgive yourself for not knowing better or for failing to control yourself in the moment. If you actually had the capacity to act differently or stay in control back then, you would have done it. Simple as that.
But I will say, forgiving yourself for those major life choices or the times you fell for huge illusions... that's the real mountain to climb. I'm still stuck on that one myself—I haven't quite figured out how a person is supposed to find peace with those kinds of things.
Absolutely! I agree with every single word, but...
What you wrote isn't being questioned, but the emotional side of things doesn't care about logic. That crushing sense of guilt shows up regardless of whether I've consciously decided to dwell on it or not.
Logic is one thing, but feelings... good grief... they are enough to drive anyone insane.
Anyway, I managed to deal with my own guilt using the method I detailed in my later posts; it's a fascinating approach, and I'd suggest others give it a shot.
silvereagle7 said:It’s all about just taking the hits over and over until your skin finally toughens up... When I was working on a factory line, my hands were constantly bleeding at first because my skin is so sensitive, but after grinding through a few hundred units and getting those boxes packed, things changed... you just have to push through the pain until you're calloused enough to handle it...
I know I can fake just about anything, but crying? Yeah, I doubt it... honestly, I used to think people felt that way right in the moment, but then after a few minutes they can't even remember why they were upset in the first place... anyway, let's not dwell on them, we really need to just let things go, right...
I haven't quite let go of them yet, so I'm really not sure... maybe someone who actually pulled it off can weigh in...
It sounds perfectly logical to me—highly effective, even if it isn't always the most efficient way to handle things.
silvereagle7 said:It’s all about just taking the hits over and over until your skin finally toughens up... When I was working on a factory line, my hands were constantly bleeding at first because my skin is so sensitive, but after grinding through a few hundred units and getting those boxes packed, things changed... you just have to push through the pain until you're calloused enough to handle it...
I know I can fake just about anything, but crying? Yeah, I doubt it... honestly, I used to think people felt that way right in the moment, but then after a few minutes they can't even remember why they were upset in the first place... anyway, let's not dwell on them, we really need to just let things go, right...
I haven't quite let go of them yet, so I'm really not sure... maybe someone who actually pulled it off can weigh in...
Don't doubt it; prepare for it instead. Honestly, I can shed tears whenever the mood strikes. It's typical for those covert narcissists—they're essentially just wolves dressed up as lambs.
silvereagle7 said:It’s all about just taking the hits over and over until your skin finally toughens up... When I was working on a factory line, my hands were constantly bleeding at first because my skin is so sensitive, but after grinding through a few hundred units and getting those boxes packed, things changed... you just have to push through the pain until you're calloused enough to handle it...
I know I can fake just about anything, but crying? Yeah, I doubt it... honestly, I used to think people felt that way right in the moment, but then after a few minutes they can't even remember why they were upset in the first place... anyway, let's not dwell on them, we really need to just let things go, right...
I haven't quite let go of them yet, so I'm really not sure... maybe someone who actually pulled it off can weigh in...
Exactly!
silvereagle7 said:It’s all about just taking the hits over and over until your skin finally toughens up... When I was working on a factory line, my hands were constantly bleeding at first because my skin is so sensitive, but after grinding through a few hundred units and getting those boxes packed, things changed... you just have to push through the pain until you're calloused enough to handle it...
I know I can fake just about anything, but crying? Yeah, I doubt it... honestly, I used to think people felt that way right in the moment, but then after a few minutes they can't even remember why they were upset in the first place... anyway, let's not dwell on them, we really need to just let things go, right...
I haven't quite let go of them yet, so I'm really not sure... maybe someone who actually pulled it off can weigh in...
I'd love to hear from someone on the outside, too. How did you manage it? How long did it take? What kind of hell did you have to walk through?
But look, people tend to be pretty private about this stuff, and frankly, I get it. Once you've finally made it out, you lose all interest in revisiting the drama because, let's face it, you can already smell the toxicity from a mile away. Just the thought of it is exhausting!
Most people are just desperate to finally live their lives and find something to smile about again. That's exactly what we're aiming for.
silvereagle7 said:Like Maria Price3 was saying, you have to let go... easier said than done, really, because if you don't heal those deep scars, you just keep running into people who trigger them all over again. You see it all the time with kids from abusive homes ending up with partners who are just as bad, maybe even worse than their parents... and it goes on forever... then you have people who had such a rough start that they end up in toxic jobs where they feel like they deserve the struggle, just projecting everything onto their lives... they haven't actually let anything go, so they're just spinning in circles...
Someone once told me something beautiful, about how we all have a certain purpose in this world, for others and because we're all connected in some way, so even if we aren't literally one, we should be out there spreading light for each other...
Like, if you've been through hell, you won't even need words to know when someone else is drowning, and you'll reach out because nobody reached out to you when you were down, and that's how you pass the light along...
Anyway, letting go of the stuff that truly hurts is the hardest part, and honestly, I haven't fully mastered it yet, but I think the idea makes sense...
I am in complete agreement that letting go is necessary, though I haven't quite figured out the "how" yet. Simply trying to forget doesn't seem to solve anything, because without real change, I’d probably just react the exact same way when faced with similar situations down the road.
silvereagle7 said:Like Maria Price3 was saying, you have to let go... easier said than done, really, because if you don't heal those deep scars, you just keep running into people who trigger them all over again. You see it all the time with kids from abusive homes ending up with partners who are just as bad, maybe even worse than their parents... and it goes on forever... then you have people who had such a rough start that they end up in toxic jobs where they feel like they deserve the struggle, just projecting everything onto their lives... they haven't actually let anything go, so they're just spinning in circles...
Someone once told me something beautiful, about how we all have a certain purpose in this world, for others and because we're all connected in some way, so even if we aren't literally one, we should be out there spreading light for each other...
Like, if you've been through hell, you won't even need words to know when someone else is drowning, and you'll reach out because nobody reached out to you when you were down, and that's how you pass the light along...
Anyway, letting go of the stuff that truly hurts is the hardest part, and honestly, I haven't fully mastered it yet, but I think the idea makes sense...
You know how narcissists can cry so convincingly? It’s enough to make your heart break for them.
@ ironrider11
I agree; letting go is absolutely necessary.
@ Maria Price3
I understand, and I’m actively working on shedding this anger. I think I'm finally making progress—at least, I'd like to believe I am.
@ Chris Grant3
Precisely. But the real question is, HOW?
@ silvereagle7
I'm with you on this: the more indifference we project, the less interesting we become to them, and they'll eventually leave us alone.
It’s always the same dilemma: you have to grit your teeth and act indifferent, which is vital, but how do you actually achieve true apathy without it being an agonizing struggle?
The more I dive into the mechanics of guilt, the more absurd—yet undeniably fascinating—it all feels; there is an incredible amount of untapped potential here, so I figured I’d share my findings with you all.
To avoid getting too bogged down in heavy philosophy (there is still so much left unsaid and unexplored), the core idea is actually quite simple: it functions essentially as a specialized internal ALARM. It isn't inherently tied to your past, though at first glance, that might seem counterintuitive.
1) We engage in an action in the present moment that clashes with our inner self, triggering an alarm;
2) A sense of guilt emerges;
3) Memories from the past begin to surface.
What used to confuse many people, myself included, was how we react when those thoughts appear: we either obsessively fixate on them or try to violently suppress them.
The solution to managing these feelings of guilt would be this:
1. Ask ourselves: what am I actually doing right this second—here and now—that caused this guilt to trigger?
2. Change the behavior, the setting, the music, the method, the company... and those thoughts will vanish right along with the memories of the past.
Essentially, it means we are either doing something, thinking about something, being somewhere, or hanging out with certain people in a way that doesn't align with our true nature, prompting our soul to demand an immediate change.
Those intrusive thoughts linked to the feeling are merely triggers on the surface; they are just secondary symptoms. They feel intense because the guilt itself is intense, much like how deep-seated traumas feel intense. Someone without significant past trauma will still experience guilt and accompanying thoughts, but it won't be nearly as agonizing, and they often just suppress it without a second thought. The deeper the wound from the past, the more it hurts, and consequently, the stronger the guilt becomes. That is where the real opportunity lies!
Because this "alarm" is so loud, it actually makes it easier to pinpoint the negative behaviors that don't serve us. The louder the signal, the better we can understand ourselves and identify what truly contradicts our character.
Now, I can't say for sure whether this is the absolute truth, or if it's just a psychological diversion—a sort of redirection tactic—or perhaps just one component of a larger healing process (the various therapeutic techniques I've mentioned before: EMDR, radiation therapy, meditation, psychoanalysis, sports, or anti-compulsive calming) designed to dull the pain and let wounds heal. I simply don't know.
I don't know how much of this is objective reality. I can only say that after applying this specific way of handling guilt for a few days, I feel like a completely different person.
Carl Rivera43 said:What kind of violence are we even talking about here? Maybe some reckless driving because someone’s feeling a bit Depressive, but classic, straight-up violence?
As I mentioned earlier, I realize that specific section is a bit "tricky."
While there is certainly self-inflicted violence involved, he explains it in this particular way, and frankly, it doesn't strike me as entirely illogical.
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Not everyone is depressed. In fact, some people are just incredibly fierce! And that fierceness is their own personal Erupt […]
One psychiatric theory suggests that "depression is anger in disguise." They argue that depression manifests as rage and fury, acting as a mask—essentially a negation of the underlying depression. Angry people are actually Depressive; Depressive people are angry.
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He then reinforces this with a metaphor, referencing the G7 in Geneva and the so-called terrorism of rebels:
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Of course, the mainstream media branded them terrorists, but it makes me wonder: who would label intoxicated raccoons or polluted rivers as extremists?
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Hillman (my own translation)
I interpreted this last part like this:
1. Someone treats you unjustly;
2. We get angry;
3. But we are powerless;
4. So we sink into depression;
5. Yet the anger over that injustice remains bottled up, just waiting for the right moment to Erupt.
It Erupts when we encounter that injustice again; if we happen to be in a position of power, we strike back. This way, we vent both what they actually deserved and everything we’ve been suppressing since we were helpless.
Then the guilt sets in, perhaps because our defense was far too aggressive? I'm not entirely sure.
Violence can absolutely be physical, verbal, passive, or intellectual (which resonates most with me)—anything that crushes the human soul, mind, or body.
They say humiliation acts on narcissists exactly how a lack of affection acts on the Depressive. It creates this twisted, perfect synergy between the two groups: they refuse to love us, while we find ourselves driven to belittle them; they envy our capacity for feeling, while we envy their total absence of guilt. Their interactions will only spiral further into dysfunction, yet neither group can seem to function without the other. This cycle continues until it inevitably hits a breaking point—either the narcissists flee because the degradation becomes too much to bear, or the Depressives bolt because they simply can't shoulder the weight of the guilt anymore.
Narcissists have turned guilt-tripping into a fine art, much like how Depressives act as absolute masters of self-abasement. Eventually, anyone watching from the sidelines won't even be able to tell the two groups apart; the narcissists will start mimicking the depressives, while the depressives begin to mirror the narcissists. A psychiatrist would probably try to untangle this mess with a laundry list of overlapping diagnoses—labeling a narcissist with comorbid Borderline or Bipolar traits, or calling a depressive someone who possesses the classic hallmarks of a narcissist. It just creates a massive, confusing blur.
Wouldn't it be much simpler to just label narcissists as "incapable of feeling guilt"? That would clear up the confusion immediately. As for the Depressive, we could probably call them "prone to belittling others." You see, a Depressive tends to put people down when they feel unloved, creating a cycle of guilt they desperately need to overcome; meanwhile, a narcissist withholds affection entirely, forcing others into a state of humiliation just so they can actually feel something. In the heat of the moment, the narcissist will whine about being victimized and look exactly like a Depressive, while the Depressive, through their constant belittling, will come across as nothing more than a narcissist.
This whole issue strikes at the core of my own struggles, and honestly, watching this interaction unfold is fascinating. I’m fully aware that in the real world, these kinds of "clashes" aren't clearly defined, which inevitably leads to a handful of people feeling insulted and digging their heels in. You'll have narcissists weaponizing their diagnoses because they can't wrap their heads around the concept of guilt—blaming the Depressives for being humiliated—while on the flip side, you'll have Depressives recoil when their own diagnosis labels them as violent, simply because they feel pressured by the narcissists.
A depressive, melancholic, somber, and sensitive soul: how could anyone ever look at them and imagine they possess a violent bone in their body? Conversely, a narcissist—someone brimming with confidence, brilliant, polished, always smiling and full of life—how could an outsider glance at them and ever suspect they are actually devoid of empathy?
Exactly. I’m a total aggressor! A Depressive soul—calm, sensitive, quiet, reserved, hardworking, respectful, and honest—but honestly? Don't you dare push my buttons. Because once you cross that line, you'd better run for the hills. It feels like that's the vibe here on this forum too: "If you leave me alone, I'll be your best friend; if you provoke me, I have more than enough ways to absolutely crush you." That is exactly how I operate in my private life as well. But narcissists just can't help themselves; they constantly poke at others because they're desperately searching for emotions they lack in themselves, even if those emotions are negative. And we fall for their little games every single time, losing our heads the moment they offer us any scrap of attention. In the end, both sides just end up creating their own misery.
In the end, those of us who struggle with being Depressive get absolutely devoured by the guilt of our own actions—specifically the way we hurt others. Rationally, you know deep down that you were just reacting to provocations, simply providing the exact emotional outburst they were fishing for in the first place. But the subconscious side of the brain doesn't give a damn about logic; it just hollows you out from the inside. It forces you to confront how much it would kill you if someone treated you the same way. You start spiraling into these endless, agonizing questions: How could I be so reckless with someone else's feelings? How could I just steamroll over them like that? Am I actually a monster? Why can't I just control my impulses? Is the flaw fundamentally within me? Am I nothing more than a cold, unfeeling narcissist? And now, how is that person supposed to move forward with the wounds I left behind? Are they the ones paying the price now? What is wrong with me? These are just a few of the relentless, gnawing doubts that keep us staring at the ceiling at three in the morning.
Then comes the depressive spiral. It’s followed by this relentless, burning anger directed at myself—this desperate urge to just stop weeping over my own failures and the wreckage I've left in other people's lives. This perpetual internal warfare is absolutely devouring me from the inside out. It isn't even just about what happened a few days ago or a few weeks back; it's the weight of everything I did ten years ago crashing down on me all over again. So, I just shut down. I withdraw completely because I can't bear the thought of having any contact with anyone, fearing I might hurt them—and more importantly, fearing I'll only end up hurting myself further by fueling this endless internal conflict.
“To err is human, to persist is diabolical.” It seems I’m either the devil himself or there’s some kind of demon living inside me, because I simply cannot shake this twisted way of communicating. Honestly, it wouldn't even bother me so much if I didn't end up carrying this crushing weight of guilt. It's soul-lacerating. Even after a meticulous deep dive into my family dynamics—identifying and feeling every single trigger from my past—the core issues remain stubbornly unchanged. I say "the core," because while there are significant shifts happening, they aren't quite enough to overhaul my current communication style. Some might argue that this requires time and grueling, relentless work. Of course it does, and I'm not throwing in the towel, but I find it much easier to process when I can hear more real-world examples and concrete cases. Everything helps, which is exactly why I started this thread!
The question is straightforward: how do I forgive myself? Or perhaps, how do I achieve emotional detachment from past events?
I find it far easier to forgive others than to forgive myself. In fact, forgiving others isn't even a question for me—it's incredibly easy and simple—though maybe that shouldn't be the case? I think it should! Yet, forgiving myself feels fundamentally impossible. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I don't believe forgiveness is actually the solution to the problem. That is, it isn't the tool we use to reach a goal; rather, it’s the final result (the cherry on top). I'll try to clarify this so it doesn't sound contradictory, because it really isn't.
A narcissist unconsciously goads you into feeling something. I get angry, so I subconsciously belittle them. They get my anger, and I get their attention. Then, I am hit with intense guilt, while they walk away with a sense of bruised pride. They force guilt upon us, and we stomp on their ego: could that be it? Ideally, both parties would be self-aware enough to own their behavior and offer an apology. But in reality, that almost never happens. While we are ready to apologize—which often follows—the other side refuses to acknowledge it. We are ready because we feel deeply and empathize; we know exactly how it would feel if someone "stepped on" us. Meanwhile, anyone watching from the sidelines sees the narcissist as the balanced one and me as the aggressor. Naturally, everyone expects an apology from me, not them. Since I am aware of my own aggression, apologizing isn't hard, but apologizing to *myself* is the real struggle because I always fall for their games. Perhaps I’m secretly waiting for their apology just so it becomes easier for my own guilt to vanish. It’s as if I want them to fix my problem and ease my soul. As if I want to be respected. As if I've been cheated out of something. Yes, I feel cheated. Because they got exactly what they wanted—the emotions they craved and the apology to soothe their pride—while I only got attention, and no apology in return. Consequently, it is simply impossible to forgive myself until we settle the score. Either we learn to stop apologizing so we feel less guilty toward ourselves, or we learn how to stop falling for their tactics. The latter is clearly the better path. But how? How do you beat people who are geniuses at it, practicing 24/7 to provoke Depressives because they are constantly starving for emotion—whether they are in a crowd or alone? They don't care about social connection; they only care about knowing they can extract an emotional reaction through provocation. Otherwise, they choose solitude, continuing their training on how to manipulate others. You can never catch up to them.🙂 That’s why I believe true forgiveness is only possible at the end, once everything is clear and conscious; otherwise, forgiving oneself would suffice, but only once clarity is achieved. Maybe we should be learning how to dodge provocateurs and refuse to be baited? But how? When they are lurking around every corner? Even the socio-economic structure of our society seems designed to favor this; narcissists are the perfect managers, and that's exactly who we elect to lead us. You can't run away, even if you wanted to! Or are those just my excuses? Is there a way?
So, settle the debt and then forgive. Yes, but how do I reclaim what was taken from me so that I can finally "toast" to self-forgiveness? How do I give myself back something that someone else stole? Logically, that sounds impossible—unless my logic is flawed and I'm missing something obvious?
Wouldn't life be significantly less exhausting if we could spot a narcissist from a mile away? They have this uncanny, almost professional ability to mask their true nature—they spend their entire lives training to stay under the radar. You see it everywhere, even with those corporate suck-ups climbing the ladder at companies like Goldman Sachs. Once you finally see them for who they really are, things become clearer, but the damage is often done. Ideally, you just cut ties and walk away. But in the interim, they’ve already stripped you of so much, or worse, they've managed to entangle you in their web. If it isn't through external circumstances, it's through the mental loops you can't stop running, or ultimately, that crushing sense of self-blame. And what happens when walking away isn't an option? Like when it's a boss you can't quit, a spouse (especially when kids are involved), or a parent...
So, perhaps the only "solution" is to descend to their level by embracing envy, though the dream would be for them to actually emulate us—to crave the depth of feeling we possess. But dreams don't pay the bills; we live in the real world. Is finding a way to kill that lingering guilt the only actual path forward? Or am I just grasping at straws?
My apologies for the long-windedness here; I honestly wasn't sure how to condense this without stripping away the nuance. Please don't take this as me "laying down the law" or acting like some absolute authority on truth. This is simply my perspective, my observation, and my personal struggle with these concepts.
To wrap this up, the core issues are: the sense of being cheated out of what was rightfully yours, the cycle of retribution, the weight of guilt, and the necessity of forgiveness. If anyone here has navigated these waters or truly understands the visceral sting of these questions, I am genuinely asking for your insight.
Thanks in advance!
PS: I realize it's a bitter pill to swallow that Depressive individuals are often deeply angry people (and vice versa), just as it's hard to accept that they can sometimes be quite abusive. In that regard, I find myself agreeing with Hillman's assessment. It took me a while to get there, but I've realized I'm essentially living in a global society populated by terrorists and rebels. 😉