Proposal to abolish PDF PŽK

hollowtrucker77 said:If I could make one request, it would be this: it’s not actually a crisis when a dog bites a person; the real crisis is when a person decides to bite a dog.
🙂
It’s the same dynamic here on this platform; most of what we see is just a chorus of people complaining, whereas the ones who are actually satisfied aren't even bothering to chime in or browse this specific sub-forum.
If I were to step up right now and say that the admins are doing an incredible job and working incredibly hard, I’d be voicing something unpopular—something that nobody really wants to admit out loud.
And the truth is, those people really do put in the work behind the scenes to keep things running and keep us talking...
However, that entire side of the operation isn't public, and it certainly isn't open for everyone to inspect.
And even if it were, you'd just end up with a whole new group of dissatisfied critics anyway...
🙂

Well, you've certainly stumbled upon something obvious there. We began our journey with that very premise.
There are indeed good moderators, but they aren't necessarily the ones you need to deal with regarding matters involving the FBI.

With a truly competent moderator, everything is resolved right then and there.

Personally, I find it wonderful when a platform provides a dedicated thread for communicating with the staff—much like what happens in the Religion section. Everything gets settled in the shortest possible timeframe, and it's all done right out in the open for every user to see. It simply doesn't get any better or more transparent than that.

hollowtrucker77 said:If I could make one request, it would be this: it’s not actually a crisis when a dog bites a person; the real crisis is when a person decides to bite a dog.
🙂
It’s the same dynamic here on this platform; most of what we see is just a chorus of people complaining, whereas the ones who are actually satisfied aren't even bothering to chime in or browse this specific sub-forum.
If I were to step up right now and say that the admins are doing an incredible job and working incredibly hard, I’d be voicing something unpopular—something that nobody really wants to admit out loud.
And the truth is, those people really do put in the work behind the scenes to keep things running and keep us talking...
However, that entire side of the operation isn't public, and it certainly isn't open for everyone to inspect.
And even if it were, you'd just end up with a whole new group of dissatisfied critics anyway...
🙂

Like I said before, I don't want this thread to turn into a critique of your work, because I think you're doing everything by the book. I'd rather this topic move past that—don't take this personally or feel insulted.
But there's something vital here...
By the time a "dog" reaches you for review, someone has already been bitten. And then that person wants to bite back, and we can expect a little bit of a scene at the FBI. We can expect some level of civility, but the whole setup implies someone is already pissed off and looking for satisfaction. Usually, they want the ultimate resolution. And often, they push it to the absolute limit...

The real question is, can we intervene before it hits that point?
That's a tough one, because there's no feedback loop back to the mods—at least, users can't see one, even if it exists...
So, should they be able to see it?
I guess not, but they should at least be aware that it exists.

And if it doesn't exist, well, they ought to know that too....

You can't solve the underlying issue at the FBI level, but once it lands on your desk, you have to handle it with extreme care...

People claim there are a ton of stupid complaints...
Look, users aren't here to avoid posting stupid threads; the mods are here specifically to filter out the stupid threads...
So, blaming the users for "stupid complaints" just doesn't fly with me.

Rachel Sanchez11 said:Well, I'm glad you decided to bold that..
Because as you can see, I didn't actually jump to any conclusions or pass judgment here...
Maybe he really is just an old-timer clinging to childhood dreams...
But I was talking about the rest of his post...
And if you look at what he wrote, it’s pretty clear:

"So now, just when I'm finally mentally and physically ready to launch this idea that would totally revolutionize Reddit—I get hit with a slap in the face. And it comes in the form of the most random, incredibly basic response imaginable. It pissed me off so much that I basically killed him in my head, because he was clearly just the product of some rushed thoughts from a guy (me) who believed in ideas that were obviously wrong."

And man, that's just sad...
When you see how many people out there lack the drive to even try and make something happen, it's honestly ugly to crush the spirit of someone who actually has that spark...
If the will is there, even if the idea is flawed, if there's someone smart behind it, you can usually steer things in a positive direction in most cases...

Look, that’s exactly the point. You read this one post from him and you try to draw conclusions based solely on his words. Whether they're positive or negative doesn't even matter—it's all the info you've got. You have no clue what actually went down, you don't know if his version of events is even remotely accurate (for all we know, there was a totally different reason for everything and he's just being dramatic now), and you definitely don't have the full picture.

Just to be crystal clear: I’m not trying to litigate the specifics of his particular situation here (not that I'm allowed to 😛), but honestly, it was kind of hilarious that you used that exact example, because it perfectly illustrates why you can't just pass judgment based on a single open thread on an FBI forum.

That’s a classic scenario on these boards: someone drops a touching, super convincing post that gathers a massive crowd of supporters who then go on a blind crusade against the mods and admins, all without having the slightest idea what the actual situation was.

feraltrucker5 said:Look, that’s exactly the point. You read this one post from him and you try to draw conclusions based solely on his words. Whether they're positive or negative doesn't even matter—it's all the info you've got. You have no clue what actually went down, you don't know if his version of events is even remotely accurate (for all we know, there was a totally different reason for everything and he's just being dramatic now), and you definitely don't have the full picture.

Just to be crystal clear: I’m not trying to litigate the specifics of his particular situation here (not that I'm allowed to 😛), but honestly, it was kind of hilarious that you used that exact example, because it perfectly illustrates why you can't just pass judgment based on a single open thread on an FBI forum.

That’s a classic scenario on these boards: someone drops a touching, super convincing post that gathers a massive crowd of supporters who then go on a blind crusade against the mods and admins, all without having the slightest idea what the actual situation was.

That is the absolute truth, though I find myself wondering what exactly prevents the admins and mods from actually commenting on a specific case.
Would their crowns fall off their heads, or what?...
Shouldn't the whole point of the FBI be open communication? Instead, it seems like all that happens is the punishment of forum members who dare to complain, often without providing even the slightest bit of clarification regarding the inquiry itself.

You keep repeating the same old mantras, yet there is absolutely no movement toward shifting the discussion away from them...

Jerry Martin19 said:Haven't voted for any option yet, just wanted to make a point. http://www.reddit.com/r/example_thread. Check out the language and the attitude people use when they "appeal" on this sub. Some say 90% of these complaints are legit, while others think it’s all just pure trolling and nonsense meant to annoy or confuse the mods... maybe we should just bait them into making an obvious mistake instead.
The issues stem from a few things:

a) It’s always more or less the same crowd complaining. Just the usual types who love to whine regardless of whether it actually makes sense.
b) A lot of people complain simply because they have a personal grudge against certain moderators and want them gone. They'll go out of their way to pick fights in subforums run by mods they don't like. Basically, they're just "stalking" a mod they can't stand.
c) You've got the clones, spammers, and trolls who just want to stir up chaos because they live for the drama.
d) Then there are those who are actually right, but they don't know how to handle an appeal. Instead of being reasonable, they come at the mods with this aggressive, negative energy that totally backfires. No chance of getting a penalty lifted—they usually just end up getting hit with another one.
e) There’s also that group—let's call them "the bystanders"—who don't even file complaints themselves but show up in every single argument, automatically siding against the mods for basically no reason.
f) The FBI section consists of Messages, Wishes, Comments plus three separate sub-sections (Congratulations, Complaints and Grievances, Banned Corner). Obviously, Congratulations gets zero traffic, and while the FBI section sounds positive based on its title, once you actually click it on the Reddit main page, you realize it's a total nightmare.

Here are the "wishes": http://www.reddit.com/r/wish1, http://www.reddit.com/r/wish2, http://www.reddit.com/r/wish3, http://www.reddit.com/r/wish4, http://www.reddit.com/r/wish5

🤣

Should I keep posting the other three hundred wishes or what?

Think I've said enough... 🙂

Look, Jerry Martin19, you can laugh all you want, but you totally missed the point

First off, it wasn't a list of "wishes," it was a proposal—which is pretty obvious from the title

Second, I wrote it with a bit of humor as a way to grab attention, though clearly, that failed miserably🙄

The whole point of the thread is to suggest scheduling two semi-annual server maintenance windows (and whatever else technical stuff I don't understand enough to list) during which Reddit would be offline. That way, we'd know exactly that from Date A to Date B, there's NO CLICKING and NO 503 or 504 errors, etc.

I brought up last year's period around Christmas and New Year's because everything ran smoothly after that maintenance, whereas now, as you can see, everything crashes constantly

So, instead of just posting useless, ineffective complaints about various random freezes, I put forward a suggestion for regular maintenance

And now, nobody gets it. Maybe it's on me, but this thread wasn't written for general forum banter; it was actually a serious proposal intended to be helpful

I mean, I don't know how much it would actually help, but if I take my car in for annual service because it makes sense, I figured something similar might work here too

As for the part where I joked... "Why don't you guys just close the shop while I do some fall cleaning without fruitlessly clicking around here"... damn, I guess when I throw a serious topic out there, people just treat it like a joke

Honestly, I expected someone to actually get it or at least say "that's impossible," but 🤷

.

feraltrucker5 said:Look, that’s exactly the point. You read this one post from him and you try to draw conclusions based solely on his words. Whether they're positive or negative doesn't even matter—it's all the info you've got. You have no clue what actually went down, you don't know if his version of events is even remotely accurate (for all we know, there was a totally different reason for everything and he's just being dramatic now), and you definitely don't have the full picture.

Just to be crystal clear: I’m not trying to litigate the specifics of his particular situation here (not that I'm allowed to 😛), but honestly, it was kind of hilarious that you used that exact example, because it perfectly illustrates why you can't just pass judgment based on a single open thread on an FBI forum.

That’s a classic scenario on these boards: someone drops a touching, super convincing post that gathers a massive crowd of supporters who then go on a blind crusade against the mods and admins, all without having the slightest idea what the actual situation was.

Look, nobody is stopping anyone from writing an even more moving or persuasive post...
If I've got one side presenting a heartfelt, convincing argument and the other side is just dead silence, I guess I'm always going to lean toward the person who actually put the effort into making their case compelling...
It makes sense to me that the other side stays vague; I mean, it's probably best if the internal politics of how a server is run are discussed over on the FBI boards anyway...
But if we're playing by those rules, then we should apply that same responsibility to the unknown user's post too and just take it down, because any user who stumbles upon this one day is going to get a really ugly impression of things...
And one more thing...
I've been around here a long time...
I've seen everything from people demanding pay raises to calls for the resignation of mods and admins dragging on for days on the FBI boards.
And I'll admit, the moderators are just people doing their jobs. Honestly, I respect them for it. But I'm not going to pretend everything is perfect and sunshine.
There's always room for improvement. Except, of course, for the people who think they've already peaked.
And there's always room for improvement even when nobody is at fault for why things weren't better before...
If you don't get that, then we can just keep up this "Us vs. Them" mentality.
If you and all the other mods actually get it, then do us a favor: put in the work and actually listen to what people are telling you.
At least listen, instead of immediately dismissing whatever they have to say as worthless.
And keep in mind, this whole thread was started by some serious members of this community.

P.S. Since the "Moderator Council" idea didn't fly, maybe you guys could set up a "User Council" specifically to settle disputes between the members and the mods...
Maybe it's a dumb idea, but hey, it's worth a discussion...

Rachel Sanchez11 said:Look, nobody is stopping anyone from writing an even more moving or persuasive post...
If I've got one side presenting a heartfelt, convincing argument and the other side is just dead silence, I guess I'm always going to lean toward the person who actually put the effort into making their case compelling...
It makes sense to me that the other side stays vague; I mean, it's probably best if the internal politics of how a server is run are discussed over on the FBI boards anyway...
But if we're playing by those rules, then we should apply that same responsibility to the unknown user's post too and just take it down, because any user who stumbles upon this one day is going to get a really ugly impression of things...
And one more thing...
I've been around here a long time...
I've seen everything from people demanding pay raises to calls for the resignation of mods and admins dragging on for days on the FBI boards.
And I'll admit, the moderators are just people doing their jobs. Honestly, I respect them for it. But I'm not going to pretend everything is perfect and sunshine.
There's always room for improvement. Except, of course, for the people who think they've already peaked.
And there's always room for improvement even when nobody is at fault for why things weren't better before...
If you don't get that, then we can just keep up this "Us vs. Them" mentality.
If you and all the other mods actually get it, then do us a favor: put in the work and actually listen to what people are telling you.
At least listen, instead of immediately dismissing whatever they have to say as worthless.
And keep in mind, this whole thread was started by some serious members of this community.

P.S. Since the "Moderator Council" idea didn't fly, maybe you guys could set up a "User Council" specifically to settle disputes between the members and the mods...
Maybe it's a dumb idea, but hey, it's worth a discussion...

This sounds way too much like old-school socialism to ever actually work. Remember how that former CEO of NBC used to say, "We aren't exactly going to broadcast whatever the hell people want to watch!"? Well, it's the same deal here. On a private forum like this, the mods are strictly going to be whoever the big boss picks. And right now, the person in charge of running this site has zero technical skills compared to the massive power the owner gave them—our admin, Jerry Garcia. The mods they pick are bound to be arrogant and totally out of line.

So, what happens next? The people who actually want real, constructive discussions are gonna bail. But don't worry, there will always be those trolls hanging around because they have nothing better to do. They don't care about the topics, and they definitely don't care if the admins and mods are fair or smart—as long as the site stays online, they're happy.

hollowtrucker77 said:If I could make one request, it would be this: it’s not actually a crisis when a dog bites a person; the real crisis is when a person decides to bite a dog.
🙂
It’s the same dynamic here on this platform; most of what we see is just a chorus of people complaining, whereas the ones who are actually satisfied aren't even bothering to chime in or browse this specific sub-forum.
If I were to step up right now and say that the admins are doing an incredible job and working incredibly hard, I’d be voicing something unpopular—something that nobody really wants to admit out loud.
And the truth is, those people really do put in the work behind the scenes to keep things running and keep us talking...
However, that entire side of the operation isn't public, and it certainly isn't open for everyone to inspect.
And even if it were, you'd just end up with a whole new group of dissatisfied critics anyway...
🙂

At the start, I actually posted about having a positive experience with one moderator and an admin (the one with the purple icon)

But now, when I bring up examples in two different threads regarding a moderator who is, frankly, totally reckless and incompetent—someone whose posts fall way outside the bounds of normal human interaction—nobody even bothers to comment.

I wouldn't exactly call that self-governance...
Having every interest group have its own representative—well, I guess that’s just what people mean when they talk about democracy...
Honestly, the whole proposal is pretty stupid and totally unrealistic, but I was just looking at it from the angle that every single sub-forum usually has some regular who holds some kind of weird status there...
It doesn't mean a person (or a group) has to be a moderator, but if they actually had the power to cast a vote with the FBI regarding a formal complaint, I think the moderators would have to change their entire attitude...
And the users would too, because it’s not the same thing when someone tries to convince you while they're sitting in a position of power versus when someone just gives you advice on your own level. In the first scenario, you always end up feeling resistant, whereas in the second, you might actually be willing to listen to an unbiased opinion...

Rachel Sanchez11, look, I’m not taking this personally, and it’s perfectly clear that I’m not the one under the microscope here.
🙂
It really just comes down to how I express myself, since, obviously, I can only speak for myself.
From what I’ve gathered, the admins actually do read through these threads, and they’re constantly checking in with the mods to get clarity on various situations.
At the same time, I’m well aware there’s a certain subset of users who act like they’re always right by default; they simply refuse to accept "no" as an answer, nor can they wrap their heads around the idea that they might actually be the ones in the wrong—or that something bothering them might just be a subjective feeling that doesn't warrant a moderator stepping in because there isn't an objective rule being broken.
Then you have those people who try to manipulate the moderators by dictating exactly who should be sanctioned and when, and the moment a mod refuses to play along, they suddenly turn into an adversary.
🙂
Of course, the flip side of that coin is "playing favorites" with friends or like-minded buddies, which leads to those inevitable attempts to pressure the staff into looking the other way or allowing certain people to get away with things that "the other side" would never be permitted to do.
That kind of behavior is frankly unacceptable and serves no purpose other than escalating the tension between different groups or individuals holding opposing views.
Which, by the way, is exactly why I don't permit threads that are specifically designed to target or discuss other users.

As for cliques and special interest groups, in my opinion, they have no place here.
Everyone on this platform should be capable of expressing themselves independently, taking responsibility for their own actions, and standing firmly behind their own perspectives.
In the end, we can bicker, debate, and "fight" using logic to convince one another of our positions—or even change our minds—but that doesn't make us enemies or opponents.
All these little factions, the lobbying, the pressure tactics, and the manipulation... does any of that actually serve a productive purpose?
What’s next, are we going to start implementing political party platforms and strict agendas?
🙂

hollowtrucker77 said:If I could make one request, it would be this: it’s not actually a crisis when a dog bites a person; the real crisis is when a person decides to bite a dog.
🙂
It’s the same dynamic here on this platform; most of what we see is just a chorus of people complaining, whereas the ones who are actually satisfied aren't even bothering to chime in or browse this specific sub-forum.
If I were to step up right now and say that the admins are doing an incredible job and working incredibly hard, I’d be voicing something unpopular—something that nobody really wants to admit out loud.
And the truth is, those people really do put in the work behind the scenes to keep things running and keep us talking...
However, that entire side of the operation isn't public, and it certainly isn't open for everyone to inspect.
And even if it were, you'd just end up with a whole new group of dissatisfied critics anyway...
🙂

Since I didn't get my resolution, I'm not starting a thread—there’s really no point.
If there’s a rule stating that a user under a permanent ban can't post here using a clone account, then that same standard should be applied equally to everyone else who has been permanently banned.
I sent a polite message via DM to the moderator and one of the admins regarding this issue, yet the user remains active, facing nothing more than occasional three-day bans.
As for the owner, I have no intention of reaching out to her on principle; her typical response is that only those who failed to become moderators complain about them, which I find frankly distasteful, and I have no desire to engage at that level.
Furthermore, one particular moderator kept handing me off-topic warnings, seemingly with the full blessing of her boss.
Fine, let's assume I was in the wrong, but her boss didn't hand out a month-long suspension for someone going off-topic three times.
And it all seems to be justified by these arbitrary "judicial" convictions....
So, what is the purpose of the FBI?
Nothing, other than to celebrate birthdays, weddings, and funerals.
For anything else, it's essentially pointless.
The appeals just end up looking ridiculous and tragic...
That's all!

I wouldn't get rid of this section of the forum; it’s honestly a breath of fresh air for the site.
I won't list everything I read, but getting banned here is actually quite difficult. When someone does get flagged, it's completely justified, which proves the moderation is top-tier. Personally, I couldn't care less about anyone claiming friendship with the mods or the rest of that crowd at the top.
In this thread, I spotted two people I'd actually shake hands with. They serve as perfect examples of how to present arguments and defend a position without resorting to insults or getting banned.
Rachel Sanchez11 and unknown, hats off to you both for what you wrote, even if it doesn't solve the core issue brought up in the first post.🙏

Honestly, I would have shut this whole thread down ages ago because, let’s face it, nothing ever actually gets resolved here anyway. 😉

The whole FBI concept was basically designed as a place to blow off some steam—kind of like hitting a gym session—rather than a venue for reaching any kind of civilized consensus.
The way our local FBI operates... well, I guess you could call it a masterpiece by Sigmund Freud. 😂

That’s why I’m all for the FBI, though I won't be casting a vote myself since the questions are just a little bit bizarre. 🤣

I don't entirely agree with you there, crimsonhound80.
The FBI handles a certain number of things and settles them,
truth be told, though it isn't always as lightning-fast or transparently as everyone on Reddit seems to crave, but it happens nonetheless.
Around here, people have this habit of taking everything for granted and viewing the world in strictly black and white. It’s honestly a bit hard to wrap your head around the fact that it’s perfectly normal—even expected—that moderators make mistakes just like any other user; they're just regular people, after all.
Generally speaking, we’ve all fallen into this pattern of demanding our rights while dodging our responsibilities, expecting others to deliver things that we wouldn't dream of fulfilling ourselves, even if we actually had the willpower to do so.
Some moderators actually asked to step down, some were let go once it became clear the job wasn't a good fit, and others find themselves getting criticized by specific individuals or small cliques despite doing an objectively fine job.
We’re humans, we’re all different, and there is absolutely no way that anyone working with people is going to be perfect or satisfy everyone all the time.
That’s why having an administrative layer is useful; they act as a corrective force, someone who can actually see both the root causes and the eventual consequences of what's happening.
They aren't infallible either, but they are still a much better solution than, say, implementing some automated banning bot.
🙂

Thanks, Michael Sanders13...
I feel a bit suffocated...

@Sandra Parker3
None of the people who actually should be stepping in are going to hit your posts with insults. And there are two reasons for that. Some would, but they don’t want to step on their colleagues' toes...
Others won't because, to them, asking someone if they perform oral sex is just totally normal.
That second issue isn't really a forum problem; it’s a sociological one. The sexual revolution has pushed things so far that asking someone that kind of question is considered standard. I honestly wonder how those same guys would react if someone asked their wife, mother, girlfriend, or daughter that exact same thing.
Just because someone you expect an answer from stays silent doesn't mean there isn't an answer. Sometimes silence speaks louder than anything else.
And look, if you're worried about the fact that someone—who clearly thinks it's fine to ask a stranger such a thing—didn't reply to you, then please, try to take this without getting all emotional or hurt. Just try to understand what my grandmother used to tell me back when I was a kid, coming home from school crying because some little brat told me I was this or that: "Listen, honey, who cares what people say? If you lived your life worrying about that, you wouldn't get anything done. It’s not about what they say to you; it’s about who is saying it."

So, here is my conclusion on the whole matter...

Moderators are chosen for specific reasons. To become one, you have to possess certain traits. These include thinking you know how to handle things better than most people, believing you have better perception, better logic, better responses, better everything...
When you take someone with that mindset, you end up with a tool that makes a ton of "adjustments" in a desperate attempt to prove they live up to the image they've built of themselves. During those adjustments, sometimes things snap, because they tighten too much or hit too hard. And another important thing: to fix something, you always need a certain amount of force. Some people know how to tighten a bolt so it doesn't slip, some don't tighten it enough, and others have to crank it several times because it keeps slipping.

Now, do I have a problem with that?
No, that’s just how the world has functioned since forever.

And now, I'll drift back into talking about illusions. Both in real life and on this forum, I always seem to express this illusion that there are people out there who will do things differently. For example, differently than this:

"My first instinct was to give you a week-long ban immediately, just so you could calm down and come back ready to communicate politely. But nah, I'll just leave you be so you can keep being insulting, and then I can drop a permaban on you without feeling a shred of guilt."

I’ve always hated threats. I’ve always preferred a person who says: "Okay, I could absolutely wreck you, but I'm giving you the choice to find a different way out, and I'm willing to help you do that." I have a buddy who weighs 250 pounds and has the strength of a bull—he doesn't have to fight to prove he's tough; you just see it. He says: "The easiest way to hit a guy with a fist is to just go to the grocery store and buy him a loaf of bread instead."

Does anyone remember how much effort went into Ris? Does anyone remember how many times Ris got banned, only to be unbanned with a new set of rules that were designed to be broken? But Ris stuck around and became a legend on this forum. There isn't a single user here who doesn't find him funny.
Does anyone remember the schemes? Does anyone remember TorcidaZg and his massive farts? His blog?
The chaos they used to cause? Yeah, there was chaos, but it was interesting.
There was that one time the forum crashed (just like it's acting now), and you couldn't even post; you could only open new threads. Willard and—I can't remember who else—kept me awake until 3 AM just by constantly starting new threads. 😁
I get why the mods were furious having to clean all that up in the morning, but I'm pretty sure they found it kind of entertaining too.

And now, there are these new characters walking through the forum, unique in their own way and different from your average user who just follows every rule to a T. Like that guy Devil in the Snow I mentioned. The mods ban him, and then they end up going to the ban list corner just to apologize to him.

A forum isn't a library, and it’s not a place where moderators just beat down users to keep things perfectly aligned. Sometimes that has to happen, but it shouldn't be the rule.
Sometimes you just see a few thousand posts from those interesting users that somehow fly right under the radar of the rules.
When I first started hanging out here, there were way more people like that, even though the total number of members was much smaller back then. Now, either they’ve vanished into the woods, or they’ve just moved on.
Sure, a site can be made tidy and spotless, but you really have to ask yourself if doing that means losing its soul in the process...

And honestly, nothing is going to change. The FBI will still be the FBI, and that moderator who claims she’ll wait for someone to make a massive blunder before handing out a heavy penalty is just a joke. But hey, she’ll keep doing her job, and you can't really expect anything better from a team that's specifically designed to work that way.
Life goes on—warnings, strikes, bans, clones...
And then there are the people who refuse to learn, even after getting two strikes on them.
The site remains, with more users and more posts every single day, carrying its own management style, its flaws, and its virtues...
And then there are the 405 errors, the 408 errors, and the mockery of people who think it's necessary to shut everything down for two days just because "maintenance" is required... while those people watch how things are serviced in their own neighborhoods and try to use that logic to find a solution...
But they don't realize the solution isn't just shutting down for a couple of days. It’s like having a car that sputters constantly and ends up on a tow truck every single day, yet you still climb in every morning and say, "Whatever, this old junker, I'm not investing any more money into it because it's not worth it. As long as it runs, it runs, and once it finally dies, I'll just sell it for parts."
(Sandra Parker3, here's my answer to your thread)

So, did I write a good, heart-wrenching post?
😁

I guess I'll always be an idealist, believing that people actually still care about having a forum that feels special—like owning an old car that's a bit worn out, but you still put work into it because you've grown attached. Or having people around who aren't exactly your "type," but they're so interesting that you'd gladly sit in a pub with them for hours just to listen. People who have a unique way of thinking, who want to take something and make it better and more beautiful rather than just focusing on what brings them the most profit.
I know I'm living in an illusion; you guys don't need to tell me...
But I also know that I can be pretty interesting to some of you, and I know that my own illusions are quite entertaining too...

And finally, to quote a classic: someone drunk navigates life a little easier...

My deepest bow to the floor... Sorry, I don't have a hat.

Rachel Sanchez11 said:Thanks, Michael Sanders13...
I feel a bit suffocated...

@Sandra Parker3
None of the people who actually should be stepping in are going to hit your posts with insults. And there are two reasons for that. Some would, but they don’t want to step on their colleagues' toes...
Others won't because, to them, asking someone if they perform oral sex is just totally normal.
That second issue isn't really a forum problem; it’s a sociological one. The sexual revolution has pushed things so far that asking someone that kind of question is considered standard. I honestly wonder how those same guys would react if someone asked their wife, mother, girlfriend, or daughter that exact same thing.
Just because someone you expect an answer from stays silent doesn't mean there isn't an answer. Sometimes silence speaks louder than anything else.
And look, if you're worried about the fact that someone—who clearly thinks it's fine to ask a stranger such a thing—didn't reply to you, then please, try to take this without getting all emotional or hurt. Just try to understand what my grandmother used to tell me back when I was a kid, coming home from school crying because some little brat told me I was this or that: "Listen, honey, who cares what people say? If you lived your life worrying about that, you wouldn't get anything done. It’s not about what they say to you; it’s about who is saying it."

So, here is my conclusion on the whole matter...

Moderators are chosen for specific reasons. To become one, you have to possess certain traits. These include thinking you know how to handle things better than most people, believing you have better perception, better logic, better responses, better everything...
When you take someone with that mindset, you end up with a tool that makes a ton of "adjustments" in a desperate attempt to prove they live up to the image they've built of themselves. During those adjustments, sometimes things snap, because they tighten too much or hit too hard. And another important thing: to fix something, you always need a certain amount of force. Some people know how to tighten a bolt so it doesn't slip, some don't tighten it enough, and others have to crank it several times because it keeps slipping.

Now, do I have a problem with that?
No, that’s just how the world has functioned since forever.

And now, I'll drift back into talking about illusions. Both in real life and on this forum, I always seem to express this illusion that there are people out there who will do things differently. For example, differently than this:

"My first instinct was to give you a week-long ban immediately, just so you could calm down and come back ready to communicate politely. But nah, I'll just leave you be so you can keep being insulting, and then I can drop a permaban on you without feeling a shred of guilt."

I’ve always hated threats. I’ve always preferred a person who says: "Okay, I could absolutely wreck you, but I'm giving you the choice to find a different way out, and I'm willing to help you do that." I have a buddy who weighs 250 pounds and has the strength of a bull—he doesn't have to fight to prove he's tough; you just see it. He says: "The easiest way to hit a guy with a fist is to just go to the grocery store and buy him a loaf of bread instead."

Does anyone remember how much effort went into Ris? Does anyone remember how many times Ris got banned, only to be unbanned with a new set of rules that were designed to be broken? But Ris stuck around and became a legend on this forum. There isn't a single user here who doesn't find him funny.
Does anyone remember the schemes? Does anyone remember TorcidaZg and his massive farts? His blog?
The chaos they used to cause? Yeah, there was chaos, but it was interesting.
There was that one time the forum crashed (just like it's acting now), and you couldn't even post; you could only open new threads. Willard and—I can't remember who else—kept me awake until 3 AM just by constantly starting new threads. 😁
I get why the mods were furious having to clean all that up in the morning, but I'm pretty sure they found it kind of entertaining too.

And now, there are these new characters walking through the forum, unique in their own way and different from your average user who just follows every rule to a T. Like that guy Devil in the Snow I mentioned. The mods ban him, and then they end up going to the ban list corner just to apologize to him.

A forum isn't a library, and it’s not a place where moderators just beat down users to keep things perfectly aligned. Sometimes that has to happen, but it shouldn't be the rule.
Sometimes you just see a few thousand posts from those interesting users that somehow fly right under the radar of the rules.
When I first started hanging out here, there were way more people like that, even though the total number of members was much smaller back then. Now, either they’ve vanished into the woods, or they’ve just moved on.
Sure, a site can be made tidy and spotless, but you really have to ask yourself if doing that means losing its soul in the process...

And honestly, nothing is going to change. The FBI will still be the FBI, and that moderator who claims she’ll wait for someone to make a massive blunder before handing out a heavy penalty is just a joke. But hey, she’ll keep doing her job, and you can't really expect anything better from a team that's specifically designed to work that way.
Life goes on—warnings, strikes, bans, clones...
And then there are the people who refuse to learn, even after getting two strikes on them.
The site remains, with more users and more posts every single day, carrying its own management style, its flaws, and its virtues...
And then there are the 405 errors, the 408 errors, and the mockery of people who think it's necessary to shut everything down for two days just because "maintenance" is required... while those people watch how things are serviced in their own neighborhoods and try to use that logic to find a solution...
But they don't realize the solution isn't just shutting down for a couple of days. It’s like having a car that sputters constantly and ends up on a tow truck every single day, yet you still climb in every morning and say, "Whatever, this old junker, I'm not investing any more money into it because it's not worth it. As long as it runs, it runs, and once it finally dies, I'll just sell it for parts."
(Sandra Parker3, here's my answer to your thread)

So, did I write a good, heart-wrenching post?
😁

I guess I'll always be an idealist, believing that people actually still care about having a forum that feels special—like owning an old car that's a bit worn out, but you still put work into it because you've grown attached. Or having people around who aren't exactly your "type," but they're so interesting that you'd gladly sit in a pub with them for hours just to listen. People who have a unique way of thinking, who want to take something and make it better and more beautiful rather than just focusing on what brings them the most profit.
I know I'm living in an illusion; you guys don't need to tell me...
But I also know that I can be pretty interesting to some of you, and I know that my own illusions are quite entertaining too...

And finally, to quote a classic: someone drunk navigates life a little easier...

My deepest bow to the floor... Sorry, I don't have a hat.

Regarding this, it wasn't about Sandra Parker3, it was about my own situation.

I agree that, in a general context, asking whether vegans swallow isn't inherently offensive.
I mean, a polite and decent forum question would be phrased as: "I'm curious, do vegans swallow semen?"

But that particular user called me a fool first, and then asked me (personally) if I swallow semen for my boyfriend.
That is a vile and vulgar ad hominem attack, plain and simple.

But, you're right; all the comments on that topic really demonstrate the level of communication and the character of both the moderators and the users.
The most tragic part is that I received a warning for "insulting" and even a "justified" ban...🙄
🤮

And the icing on the cake is when people like that turn around and lecture others about their "level of communication."🙏

My bad on the mistake there...
I guess I get a little too carried away with my posts and stop paying attention to who's who...
But honestly, it doesn't even matter, the point is what actually matters....

Rachel Sanchez11, you put together a solid post there, props to you
meduztim, did it ever cross your mind that you're actually talking about perception??
See, almost anything someone says can be interpreted in at least two different ways
So, even that sentence you quoted could be read as a threat of a permanent ban, or you could view it as an opportunity for someone to just stop, say, spamming or being abusive (I’m not targeting anyone specifically here and I'm not linking this to any one person)
Furthermore, regarding the people chosen to be moderators, I don't think it's about finding folks who consider themselves smarter or better than everyone else; rather, it's about finding those willing to show they want to improve things, fully aware they'll be working for free and becoming a target for anger and attacks from people who were probably their friends just yesterday
The difference is massive and vital, and frankly, I don't feel the need to overexplain it further
🙂
Moving on, to that suggestion Sandra Parker3 made: the issue isn't just taking a few days or a week to service or fix something
The real issue is the actual amount of cash required for servers and connections; it's the exact same problem as that poor guy struggling every single morning to get his old clunker running when the smart move would be for the idiot to just go out and buy himself a new BMW

I'm with you on that...
It all comes down to perception, really...
But look, if you tell someone you're going to crush them, you have to realize they’re only hearing that because their survival instinct kicks in, making self-preservation and protecting their own integrity the only priority...
However, if you actually show them a logical, reasoned way they can change, then they're just being an idiot for refusing to accept it. That’s assuming you haven't got a club in your hand, and they know full well it'll swing if they don't find a solution. In that case, perception tells them they need to fix things, but they still don't want to look at where the blow is coming from, whew...

So, maybe it's about how they see it, or maybe it's about how they're being steered.
In my opinion, whoever holds the power—whoever has the strength—needs to be capable of using it only after they've exhausted every other possible option. If they don't, they're just a bully. Having power and knowing how to wield it are two completely different things...
I know I might be living in an illusion here too, but I'm leaning on that quote I mentioned earlier...

Don't get me wrong regarding the mods...
We all take on certain tasks alongside everything else simply because we think we can do them better than anyone else. There's nothing wrong with that; honestly, that might be exactly why we do them better. It's just self-motivation.

I get the whole deal with the old junkers versus a BMW, but I don't get why someone would settle for driving a total lemon that constantly breaks down instead of making a real choice: either fix it or just buy the BMW. I think you'd agree that the absolute worst thing to do in that situation is neither fixing the junker nor buying the BMW.

OT.
A buddy of mine used to struggle with this old, beat-up Chevy. Once it started acting up constantly, he’d always call me to come pick him up somewhere in town. Every time I saw his name flash on my phone screen, I'd just say, "Yeah, it's stuck on the shoulder again..."
He eventually sold it and now drives a Renault Megane. Some kid from the neighborhood bought the Chevy, fixed it up, and drives it now. And even now, my friend still looks at it with a bit of nostalgia.
When he was trying to sell it for 100 bucks, we were talking one day about how nobody wanted to touch it. We were reminiscing about our younger days when any car at all felt like a dream come true. These days, kids won't even look at anything with less than 130 horsepower.
But perceptions have shifted. Back then, just having a car was enough; now, just having a car isn't enough—it has to be a good car.

There was a time when just having a forum was plenty. You'd log on with a 14400 kbps connection, and just knowing there was a place to write was enough reason to invest, even if there weren't many users, ads, or any of the stuff you see today. It didn't even have much potential back then.
Hmm, today it's got 130 horsepower, a decent fuel injection system, and all these modern features, but it's just not interesting anymore because the perception of the guy who first checked it out has changed. People grow up, and once you grow up, buying a toy definitely falls behind other priorities in your mind.

And it's not like I'm any different from that...
Maybe I'm just looking back at some old toys with a bit of nostalgia...
🙂

And I sense that the days of playing are over...
Later

The pioneer days were always the golden era, hands down.
🙂
Just like how a few years back, not everyone had a computer or high-speed internet, let alone the slightest clue what a chat room or an online forum even was, there used to be a time when actually having a driver’s license or owning a car felt like a massive event for the entire neighborhood.
Back then, people actually treated their metal pets and the act of driving with a certain level of respect, and online, you’d find people who actually possessed some soul and a hell of a lot of drive.
But now? The highways are clogged with kids whose egos are significantly larger than their brains, and the internet has turned into this chaotic wasteland where everyone shows up just to steal, scam, or peddle junk through both legal and illegal channels...
The age of the pioneers is dead and gone.
We can no longer bank on anyone’s self-control or basic goodwill.
Unfortunately, sheer quantity is drowning out quality, which creates this desperate need for much tighter, more aggressive oversight.
Nobody enjoys that, obviously, but it’s become the only way to keep things moving—whether we're talking about traffic on the interstate, life here on this forum, or any other community under pressure.
I actually hopped onto a chat room the other day that I hadn't visited in years, just to see if anything had changed.
It was a disaster. It’s absolutely suffocated by bots constantly spamming products at one another; if you're lucky, you might stumble upon two or three actual human beings wandering through the wreckage.
It’s a total apocalypse.