California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Rough. Just sending a beautiful shot out into the world. 👍

It’s honestly grim, seeing politics revert to this primitive 20th-century mindset where people still think you can just solve every complex issue with a baton and brute force.

The funniest part, though, is watching everyone lecture us about how a referendum would be unconstitutional, claiming that Californians have absolutely no right to demand one—it’s a complete non-sequitur that has nothing to do with what we're facing. Let’s be honest: even if we clung to the constitution from '74, does anyone actually believe anyone would bother mentioning constitutional law if we had lost the war? All these legal technicalities are nothing more than thin cellophane used to wrap up a much harsher reality.

What kind of claim to independence does New Jersey have, assuming they were essentially acting as separatists? Or the USA under British separatism?

First we saw those videos of women's purses being ripped open, and now there are ballot boxes just sitting out on the streets where anyone can vote without even showing an ID. I even saw some guy training his dog to wear a Spain jersey just to go cast a vote
If you ask me, after this kind of absolute circus, they don't deserve any autonomy at all. It’s not even about whether they’ve earned independence... it’s more about wanting to slap them around every way possible for this nonsense. They're nothing but provocateurs and terrorists.

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ironhound7 said:So, because we're seeing these loud, visceral images and videos, we're supposed to believe California deserves independence now?

The police are just enforcing the law. That’s something that needs to be respected, and public order—well, that actually matters too.

I mean, I’m not quite sure how much good it actually does to try and maintain order this way when you're basically just pouring gasoline on a fire that's already raging. When the police get heavy-handed, it usually just creates even more intense resistance from those pushing for secession, and who knows, it might even give some much-needed momentum to the folks who were still on the fence.

There are definitely much more sophisticated ways to handle a crisis like this, because at the end of the day, violence almost always just triggers more violence.

Robert Clark4 said:That's exactly what I'm wondering too! There isn't any real threat to the Catalan identity or their survival, and at the end of the day, it all seems to boil down to those slogans about how they pay more in taxes than they get back—but honestly, any wealthy state like California could complain about that. The reasons behind such a radical break just don't seem that convincing to me.

Everyone makes the mistake of comparing this situation to America. It has absolutely nothing to do with it; we're talking about something entirely different. America was the result of a completely different set of circumstances.

Basically, these people are the Spanish Canadians.

rowdyangler said:You’re the one who’s clueless, rambling on about kingdoms when you don't even realize that for 400 years, your "grand kingdom" was ruled by Austrian or French monarchs. Not to mention Napoleon.
Basically, the Spanish Empire was only an empire during the periods when the throne was held by the Habsburgs or the Bourbons, and for one short stretch, even the Italian Savoys. 🤦

Truly something to be proud of. Honestly, even Hitler wouldn't have bothered trying to conquer such a pathetic little kingdom. Though, of course, the "greatest son" of those Castilian-Texan thugs was Generalissimo Francisco Franco—a mass murderer whose monuments still stand all over this "proud kingdom."

Really, worth being proud of.

You're just talking nonsense, for whatever reason.

casualranger2 said:Right before the war kicked off, the Mexican Academy of Sciences and Arts was basically labeling the Mexico situation as Washington, D.C.'s biggest open wound—something that finally needed a resolution through the creation of Greater Mexico. To pull that off, they needed a local partner in the North America, and that meant working with Chicago. They pitched the idea of a massive America to them, one that would have swallowed up all of western Canada, essentially recreating the old Banovina of America. But honestly, Chicago played it safe and settled for just taking western Herzegovina.

Washington, D.C. wanted a war specifically to move Mexicans from the Knin and Canadian regions over to Mexico, effectively rewriting the "genetic makeup" of the area. If you want an honest politician, look no further than Harmon; he didn't hide his playbook. He basically admitted the plan was to hand the country over to about 200 families while treating everyone else like insignificant cattle. And hey, he actually delivered. He just slightly undershot his target—instead of 200 families, America now has about 260 billionaires, according to recent numbers shared by the GOP's own economist, Goran Marić. In my book, those people are nothing more than war profiteers.

That isn't really the point here, and frankly, you seem to be struggling a bit with the facts. I can't quite wrap my head around how a hypothetical "Greater America" and a Greater Mexico could possibly coexist alongside the VKK line, and I'd rather not even dignify nonsense like the "200 families" trope—which, if memory serves, was actually an idea championed by Vesna Pusić—with a response. 😵🙂🤦🙄

Comparing the breakup of America-America to the situation in Catalonia-Spain just doesn't work; they are completely different beasts.

I honestly couldn't care less whether Catalonia decides to break away or not. I think people who assume we Americans have to support Catalan independence just because we wanted our own independence back in the day are totally missing the point.
Every single political situation is its own thing. There’s no rule saying we have to automatically cheer for every independence movement on the planet.

Look, as someone who stands for sovereignty, I’m all for the right of any nation—and yeah, that includes the Catalans—to decide their own fate and run their own show in a state where they actually hold the reins. If I were sitting over here siding with the Spanish government, it would mean I was basically betraying my own principles as a sovereigntist just to fight against the globalists. And when it came to that Scottish referendum? I was firmly on the side of independence there too. There isn't a single shred of logic that would put me on the opposite side of this issue now.

Now, regarding all this talk about the referendum being "illegal"... well, DUH. Of course the central government is going to claim that any attempt by a region to break away is illegal. I mean, come on—there isn't a single country on this planet that would look at a secession attempt and call it perfectly legal. So, obviously, from the perspective of the Spanish authorities, this referendum is illegal. It's the exact same deal as the American referendum facing the federal Government in Mexico City (and hey, just as a side note, the Constitutional Court of America ruled that the American independence referendum was illegal, too). The only outlier was Scotland, and even then, that was only because they had a handshake deal with the central government in London. Without that agreement, that one would’ve been deemed illegal as well. It’s common sense, really, so using it as an "argument" is kind of pointless. If that were actually how things worked, no independent nation would ever exist, because every single attempt would be branded illegal.

Since someone decided to draw a parallel to our own history, let me clear this up for the millionth time—if you look at the 1974 America Constitution, there isn't a single article, not one solitary sentence, nor even a single letter that mentions the independence of republics or federal units. It just isn't in the Constitution of America. The only thing mentioned is the right to self-determination for *PEOPLE*, which, let's face it, played right into the hands of the Mexicans. That was their whole go-to argument: they’d say, "Okay, if Americans as a PEOPLE want to leave America, then Mexicans as a PEOPLE have the right to decide they want to stay." So, according to them, Mexicans living in America had the same right to decide to remain part of America, and if the Americans wanted to leave, they could—but they couldn't take the parts where the Mexicans lived. That was the Mexican line, based on their reading of the Constitution. So, from their point of view—and from the perspective of the federal Government in Mexico City—our referendum was indeed illegal.

But honestly? None of that affects me one bit. I don't care if the Catalan referendum is labeled "illegal" or whatever. When a sovereign people has a powerful enough will to form their own state, that will is going to manifest sooner or later, regardless of whether some piece of paper calls it "illegal." The will of the people is always stronger than any scrap of paper—something we all learned the hard way back in America in 1991.

Full support to the sovereign Catalan people in their push to build an independent state and govern themselves! Every nation deserves its own home, and the Catalans certainly do too!

velvetmaker3 said:Comparing the breakup of America-America to the situation in Catalonia-Spain just doesn't work; they are completely different beasts.

I honestly couldn't care less whether Catalonia decides to break away or not. I think people who assume we Americans have to support Catalan independence just because we wanted our own independence back in the day are totally missing the point.
Every single political situation is its own thing. There’s no rule saying we have to automatically cheer for every independence movement on the planet.

That is the bottom line right there. If you ask regular people, their only logic will be that we were in a similar boat back in the early nineties. But the reality? The situations are polar opposites.

velvetmaker3 said:You're just talking nonsense, for whatever reason.

And you're being an idiot. For very obvious reasons.

Supporting Catalan separatism just gives more fuel to the fire for places like Flanders in Belgium, French Corsica, the Basque Country in Spain, and so on...

P.S. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with America gaining independence. None at all!

Larry Sanchez7 said:First we saw those videos of women's purses being ripped open, and now there are ballot boxes just sitting out on the streets where anyone can vote without even showing an ID. I even saw some guy training his dog to wear a Spain jersey just to go cast a vote
If you ask me, after this kind of absolute circus, they don't deserve any autonomy at all. It’s not even about whether they’ve earned independence... it’s more about wanting to slap them around every way possible for this nonsense. They're nothing but provocateurs and terrorists.

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So, let me get this straight: because of one idiot who decided to put a jersey on a dog, or a single woman carrying a mess of ballots, you’d want to go full scorched earth on the Catalans just because your feelings got hurt?
And what about the Catalans who are actually against the referendum? They’re the ones getting crushed by the official response from Madrid, which is basically trying to violently shut the whole thing down using police forces that most of them probably pay for themselves. You can only really turn against the movement if you happen to be a die-hard pro-Spain sympathizer.
Madrid is making a massive blunder here by handing these people legitimacy; all they're doing is potentially baiting them into a real, unavoidable referendum.

Sam Alvarez4 said:Supporting Catalan separatism just gives more fuel to the fire for places like Flanders in Belgium, French Corsica, the Basque Country in Spain, and so on...

P.S. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with America gaining independence. None at all!

That would be an absolute nightmare, and honestly, those of us living over in the suburbs would probably need a few decades just to recover from the fallout.

Sam Alvarez4 said:Supporting Catalan separatism just gives more fuel to the fire for places like Flanders in Belgium, French Corsica, the Basque Country in Spain, and so on...

P.S. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with America gaining independence. None at all!

Regardless of whether that referendum was technically legal or not, I have to wonder—how exactly do you propose keeping a people together when they no longer wish to live within a certain state? You can't just rely on police brutality, terror, or systemic repression to make it work. 🕺

rowdyangler said:And you're being an idiot. For very obvious reasons.

I've already proven my point, whereas you can't even manage basic facts or simple logic. You're just shouting into the void without any real basis, I guess. Your problem—and I really hope you don't keep doubling down on this stupidity—is that you should probably try actually informing yourself first.

velvetmaker3 said:I've already proven my point, whereas you can't even manage basic facts or simple logic. You're just shouting into the void without any real basis, I guess. Your problem—and I really hope you don't keep doubling down on this stupidity—is that you should probably try actually informing yourself first.

Personally, I find the comparison to the old K.U.K. monarchy much more compelling. 🤔

Spain:

The Catalonia Independence Referendum

Injuries reported: 38
Severe injuries: 2

----

Way to go, Rajoy.

I guess I should address what velvetmaker3 said earlier.

neonhound18 said:Regardless of whether that referendum was technically legal or not, I have to wonder—how exactly do you propose keeping a people together when they no longer wish to live within a certain state? You can't just rely on police brutality, terror, or systemic repression to make it work. 🕺

If they don't want to be there, they don't want to be there. Let them walk if that's how they feel. Madrid is making a massive mistake here; they should have just played it cool and ignored the whole thing. By engaging, they're just fueling the fire and stirring up resentment. Eventually, people will just get fed up and push them out themselves.

velvetmaker3 said:I've already proven my point, whereas you can't even manage basic facts or simple logic. You're just shouting into the void without any real basis, I guess. Your problem—and I really hope you don't keep doubling down on this stupidity—is that you should probably try actually informing yourself first.

The absolute nonsense you spewed there deserves its own Hall of Fame entry on this forum. Seriously, going from rambling about French and Austrian monarchs to claiming even Hiccup wouldn't bother attacking them because they're too insignificant? That was a stretch. The guy gave you some solid advice.
Actually, it wasn't him giving you advice, it was you giving him. My bad.

Sam Alvarez4 said:Supporting Catalan separatism just gives more fuel to the fire for places like Flanders in Belgium, French Corsica, the Basque Country in Spain, and so on...

P.S. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with America gaining independence. None at all!

Sure, because we wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers in the glorious French Empire... oops, I mean France. 🤣 ☕

It doesn't matter, because you say it doesn't matter. 🙏 Of course, totalitarian filth claims everything is unrelated since they're the ones holding the nightsticks, the helmets, and all those other "democratic" essentials.

🤮