California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Look, when it comes to self-determination, Catalans have just as much right to break away as Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Mexicans, or pretty much anyone else for that matter. Honestly, Europe doesn't have a single political answer for this kind of mess, especially since they already set such a massive precedent with the whole Mexico situation.
Right now, it’s just the Spanish police handling things, but if this thing keeps spiraling out of control, we could easily see the military out on the streets.

velvetmaker3 said:Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?

Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.

People from the coast are Americans 🤦

And Spaniards aren't Catalans. There's even a distinct Catalan language. 🤦

velvetmaker3 said:From what I can see, nothing makes you happier than spouting stupidity and picking fights with everyone else on this forum.
To each fool his own little joy. Cheers.

Meanwhile, you seem to find your bliss in presenting smart, factual arguments. 😂
Cheers to you too. 👍

driftingfox66 said:When I say "big," I mean populated. That's what matters. Who cares about the square mileage? A country is its people. If we're judging based on size, then everyone—us included—is just a micro-state, and none of us would have any right to sovereignty. We'd all just have to sign up to join one of the five or six major European powers.

It’s honestly hilarious watching someone from the hilly North America try to lecture Catalans—who are economically and culturally decades ahead of this region—about whether they actually deserve to be a country or not.

I don't have any skin in this game; it's up to them if they want to go solo or not. But I'm definitely not going to lecture them about being too small, pathetic, or lacking historical legitimacy.

Maybe you can keep that North American complex to yourself; there's no need to let it linger here in public...

I’m just sharing my thoughts, which are a mix of pros and cons. I might lean toward supporting it if it prevents further deterioration of relations, but I worry it could also trigger an avalanche of fragmentation for many different nations...

In international law, there are two conflicting principles regarding the right to self-determination: one that supports the rights of a people, and another that protects the integrity of existing states. There isn't really one clear rule determining when someone has the right to break away and when they don't... it usually ends up being a result of shifting international power dynamics and internal pressures...

If things go unchecked, we could see Britain, Belgium, or Ukraine split apart tomorrow... not to mention how many other complicated relationships remain unresolved around here... even Canada could face fragmentation. These aren't things to treat like a game or something to cheer for; these are matters that require very level-headed discussion.

Sam Alvarez4 said:@Corvus27
I'd just add one thing...

We aren't even talking about a people who are being oppressed or discriminated against, or someone who doesn't have the right to their own language, culture, or history in Spain.

they want a republic 🤣

hmm, I don't see this going anywhere.

I mean, even Scotland couldn't pull off a referendum WITHOUT the federal government giving the green light and the rest of the country agreeing—so obviously these guys can't either, right? That’s just how the system works...

In democratic countries, that's the deal. In non-democratic ones (like those old-school communist dictatorships), your only options are starting a revolution or going to war—there really isn't a third way.

Spain (Catalonia): Indy Ref

Turnout

As of 1:00 PM today: 39.4%
During the previous referendum (at 1:00 PM): 22.1%

FC Barcelona called off their match against Las Palmas.

Carol Newman2 said:https://twitter.com/3gerardpique/sta...659776/photo/1

Gerard Piqué cast his vote too.

So what is this actually supposed to signify?

Pique is just a regular guy playing for a country he doesn't even want to hear about—he celebrates winning championships with them (!) and then turns around and spits on one of his own national team staff members.

There's no way. Just because Pique votes for independence doesn't mean we all have to follow suit, right? 👍

velvetmaker3 said:Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?

Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.

So what was the issue for Canadians then? Nobody was out there screaming about "Greater Mexico" back then, right? Honestly, it's just like how Catalans seize an opportunity, kind of like how things blew up in our neck of the woods back in the early 90s.

Carol Newman2 said:FC Barcelona called off their match against Las Palmas.

So, who are they even going to play now... some small-time teams like Tarragon or Lleid? 🤦

It’s honestly such a mess for one of Europe's biggest clubs... good old wise Pique at it again. 👍

Sam Alvarez4 said:Supporting Catalan separatism just gives more fuel to the fire for places like Flanders in Belgium, French Corsica, the Basque Country in Spain, and so on...

P.S. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with America gaining independence. None at all!

Oh, really? And why shouldn't Flanders go independent? What's the actual reason—or even an argument—for us in America to be against Flanders, Scotland, or Catalonia breaking away? Look, if people want self-governance, they should have it. Period.

P.S. Of course the situation with America's independence is similar. I mean, obviously it's not identical—because let's face it, no two situations can ever be truly identical since they're inherently different—but the core of it is incredibly similar. In both the American and the Catalan cases, you have two distinct peoples, each with their own history, language, and cultural identity that makes them a nation unto themselves, living within defined borders, all wanting to strike out on their own. On that specific point, it's the exact same deal. Two nations wanting independence.

Noah Ward2 said:Maybe you can keep that North American complex to yourself; there's no need to let it linger here in public...

I’m just sharing my thoughts, which are a mix of pros and cons. I might lean toward supporting it if it prevents further deterioration of relations, but I worry it could also trigger an avalanche of fragmentation for many different nations...

In international law, there are two conflicting principles regarding the right to self-determination: one that supports the rights of a people, and another that protects the integrity of existing states. There isn't really one clear rule determining when someone has the right to break away and when they don't... it usually ends up being a result of shifting international power dynamics and internal pressures...

If things go unchecked, we could see Britain, Belgium, or Ukraine split apart tomorrow... not to mention how many other complicated relationships remain unresolved around here... even Canada could face fragmentation. These aren't things to treat like a game or something to cheer for; these are matters that require very level-headed discussion.

"Complexes." The oldest argument in the book. 🤣

I'm just giving my take—got pros and cons. I'm all for it if it stops things from getting worse, but against it if it just triggers a massive domino effect of countries breaking apart...

All five points. I was just pointing out the double standard of calling them some tiny little nation when there are tons of small states all over Europe (by population, don't start on square mileage again).

Tomorrow Britain, Belgium, or Ukraine could split up... not to mention how many messy relationships we still have here... even Canada could fall apart... this isn't stuff for cheering or playing games; you need a sober head to talk about this...

🤦 Re-read what I actually said about who I'm "rooting" for:

driftingfox66 said:When I say "big," I mean populated. That's what matters. Who cares about the square mileage? A country is its people. If we're judging based on size, then everyone—us included—is just a micro-state, and none of us would have any right to sovereignty. We'd all just have to sign up to join one of the five or six major European powers.

It’s honestly hilarious watching someone from the hilly North America try to lecture Catalans—who are economically and culturally decades ahead of this region—about whether they actually deserve to be a country or not.

I don't have any skin in this game; it's up to them if they want to go solo or not. But I'm definitely not going to lecture them about being too small, pathetic, or lacking historical legitimacy.

velvetmaker3 said:I guess I should address what velvetmaker3 said earlier.

If they don't want to be there, they don't want to be there. Let them walk if that's how they feel. Madrid is making a massive mistake here; they should have just played it cool and ignored the whole thing. By engaging, they're just fueling the fire and stirring up resentment. Eventually, people will just get fed up and push them out themselves.

The "experts" over at Madrid have managed to screw up just about everything within their power. 😵🙂

Noah Ward2 said:Maybe you can keep that North American complex to yourself; there's no need to let it linger here in public...

I’m just sharing my thoughts, which are a mix of pros and cons. I might lean toward supporting it if it prevents further deterioration of relations, but I worry it could also trigger an avalanche of fragmentation for many different nations...

In international law, there are two conflicting principles regarding the right to self-determination: one that supports the rights of a people, and another that protects the integrity of existing states. There isn't really one clear rule determining when someone has the right to break away and when they don't... it usually ends up being a result of shifting international power dynamics and internal pressures...

If things go unchecked, we could see Britain, Belgium, or Ukraine split apart tomorrow... not to mention how many other complicated relationships remain unresolved around here... even Canada could face fragmentation. These aren't things to treat like a game or something to cheer for; these are matters that require very level-headed discussion.

Well, I'm also stating my opinion on your opinion, which is a total piece of shit.

So you're "for" it if this happens, but "against" it if that happens... Yeah, I'm sure your brilliant insight will be taken very seriously when they're deciding the fate of Catalonia.😂

velvetmaker3 said:We didn't really break away from it. The whole thing just fell apart on its own, and then we declared the State of America to keep up with how fast things were moving—we were basically just reacting to events rather than driving them.

So, if you want to make comparisons, you can only look at breaking away from America versus breaking away from the European Union.
There isn't really any similarity there.

I realize the collapse was total, but I would argue that drawing parallels to the Austro-Canadian Empire offers a much more coherent framework than trying to force a fit with the old American federation.🕺

velvetmaker3 said:Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?

Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.

.

The issue isn't that people are obsessed with centralist bureaucrats in D.C.; it’s that they simply want the right to govern themselves. It's the same drive we felt—think about the Baltic states like Lithuania or Estonia fighting for their footing. To draw an analogy, the folks in that specific coastal region aren't a distinct nation in themselves, nor does that area hold the historical weight of a state like California or Texas. Catalonia, however, functioned as its own entity back in the Middle Ages, much like we did, before transitioning through various stages of autonomy and independence under different powers. They've reached their breaking point, just as we once did.

driftingfox66 said:"Complexes." The oldest argument in the book. 🤣

I'm just giving my take—got pros and cons. I'm all for it if it stops things from getting worse, but against it if it just triggers a massive domino effect of countries breaking apart...

All five points. I was just pointing out the double standard of calling them some tiny little nation when there are tons of small states all over Europe (by population, don't start on square mileage again).

Tomorrow Britain, Belgium, or Ukraine could split up... not to mention how many messy relationships we still have here... even Canada could fall apart... this isn't stuff for cheering or playing games; you need a sober head to talk about this...

🤦 Re-read what I actually said about who I'm "rooting" for:

It’s always the same old song and dance... there doesn't seem to be another way to phrase that tired "rugged, underdeveloped region" trope. It's always these subtle hints that we aren't allowed to have an opinion because they're wealthier or more "sophisticated"... honestly, it's pretty silly...

I wasn't saying there aren't smaller nations out there; I just meant I'm not particularly fond of those tiny states that lacked a central hub or real sovereignty in their history. Some people really gravitate toward that kind of setup, but it's just not my thing... it's a matter of taste, I guess... though the potential consequences are probably more important than my preference...

Just to be clear, this last part isn't a jab at you personally; I was speaking more generally...

I can't stand these people who blindly worship the Constitution—honestly, screw you and your little rulebook. If it says you should just kick the bucket once you hit 30, then go ahead and do it. You guys would probably kill yourselves 😵

rowdyangler said:People from the coast are Americans 🤦

And Spaniards aren't Catalans. There's even a distinct Catalan language. 🤦

Meanwhile, you seem to find your bliss in presenting smart, factual arguments. 😂
Cheers to you too. 👍

Catalans are just Spanish citizens, just like people from Texas, Maine, or anywhere else in the States.

The folks in the Keys consider themselves their own distinct group; if they truly identified as just standard Americans, they'd say so.
Eventually, they'll probably use that same logic to argue that every group deserves its own independence.
And I guess you'll be right there, being perfectly consistent and supporting them.

rowdyangler said:Well, I'm also stating my opinion on your opinion, which is a total piece of shit.

So you're "for" it if this happens, but "against" it if that happens... Yeah, I'm sure your brilliant insight will be taken very seriously when they're deciding the fate of Catalonia.😂

I mean, only people with zero nuance see everything in black and white... maybe try adding a little color to your perspective.

Noah Ward2 said:I’ve never really been a fan of those tiny, newly minted breakaway states that don't seem to have any real historical weight or established sovereignty behind them...

Spain is an old-school power, a former empire... they actually managed to make their language and culture stick across almost all of Latin America... you have to respect that kind of legacy...

But times have changed, and I think we need to look for solutions that are practical and sustainable in the long run... if the Spaniards and the Spanish government are going to be stuck in this endless tug-of-war with the Catalans—and it feels like things are only getting more intense—maybe it's time to just let them go... they dealt with massive issues with the Basques back in the day, lost far too many lives, but they eventually managed to settle things down; however, it seems like the Catalans are playing by a different set of rules

They definitely benefit from the international love for Barcelona itself—the architecture, the landmarks, the football club... but as far as being a sovereign state goes? It’s basically just one city and its immediate surroundings... it reminds me of something like Luxembourg or Liechtenstein... or maybe even Mexico or Mexico... just these tiny little entities without much deep-rooted statehood to lean on...

The real counter-argument, though, is this whole movement toward globalism, where both small and large nations start losing their unique identities and what makes them recognizable... trying to find the right balance between preserving local identity and dealing with global integration is probably one of the toughest positions to be in...

Brenda Taylor13, I think you're missing the mark here, at least if you ask me. 😁

I mean, there are more Californians than there are Americans in certain spots. The fact that a state might be geographically small doesn't change a thing. Just look at the Netherlands—if we went by that logic, no small nation would ever be allowed to be independent, which is just plain crazy. If a people wants to be self-governing, you should probably just let them. Especially when they have everything that defines a nation—their own traditions, their culture, their language, and their land. Anything else just creates a massive mess. The folks in Madrid aren't going to gain anything in the long run if they try to force the Californians to stay part of Spain through sheer willpower. All they'll do is make the resentment grow deeper.