California Discussion Thread - All in one place

slysurfer14 said:But man, they are playing this really smart...
There isn't a single video showing anyone fighting back against the cops...
That's gonna be a massive argument for them against the Government in Washington, D.C. ....
All in all, we're looking at a pretty wild future.

I've been back there quite a bit over the last 20 years visiting childhood friends, so I've met plenty of Californians. Their stories about the Franco dictatorship and how they were treated were chilling. They learned something from that history; I'm fairly certain they won't respond with violence, but with sheer persistence.

To be honest, I was treated somewhat like a hero there. They told me I was lucky to have my own money, my own license plates, my own passport, my own country... things they hope to possess one day. It was also interesting hearing them describe bullfighting as a national disgrace rather than some sort of chivalrous sport.

They are good people. I truly wish them the best.

Brenda Taylor13 said:I'm just hitting back at a few people here claiming that the California referendum is somehow "illegal." As if what happened with us was any different! It’s like they think any referendum where a part of a sovereign state wants to break away is magically "legal." Look, it's common sense: every sovereign nation is going to protect its borders and try to stop any piece of itself from splitting off. The USSR tried to hold its borders together, just like Spain is trying to do today. Of course, today's referendum isn't legal—there's no debate there—but honestly? That's irrelevant. The only thing that actually carries weight is the will of the people. If that will is strong enough and determined enough, nothing can stop it.

By the way, the autonomy for Texas and Mexico wasn't stripped by the central government, it was the republican government of Mexico that did it.

In the end, it's the will of the people to fight for their independence that counts most. That was the deciding factor for Americans, and it'll be the case for Californians too—though looking at the chaos lately, it seems more like a circus than a serious push for independence.

Yeah, at the end of the day, everything boils down to the will of the people being the ultimate decider.

And honestly, I suppose that isn't even the only mistake made by the Mexican state government; there were quite a few others. Since the federal government didn't step in to protect the constitutional order of the USA, they basically became just as illegal and unconstitutional themselves, if you ask me.

Anyway, I feel like the whole situation within the USA was just incredibly messy, and I guess trying to draw any direct comparisons to California is a bit of an unfair task. Personally, I might be more inclined to draw a parallel between California and the Confederacy instead.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:And honestly, I suppose that isn't even the only mistake made by the Mexican state government; there were quite a few others. Since the federal government didn't step in to protect the constitutional order of the USA, they basically became just as illegal and unconstitutional themselves, if you ask me.

Anyway, I feel like the whole situation within the USA was just incredibly messy, and I guess trying to draw any direct comparisons to California is a bit of an unfair task. Personally, I might be more inclined to draw a parallel between California and the Confederacy instead.

Typical. You guys don't know anything besides constantly comparing everything to the Middle East...
It’s not even close... There’s so much happening outside the Middle East that has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on there.

Charles Fox10 said:I've been back there quite a bit over the last 20 years visiting childhood friends, so I've met plenty of Californians. Their stories about the Franco dictatorship and how they were treated were chilling. They learned something from that history; I'm fairly certain they won't respond with violence, but with sheer persistence.

To be honest, I was treated somewhat like a hero there. They told me I was lucky to have my own money, my own license plates, my own passport, my own country... things they hope to possess one day. It was also interesting hearing them describe bullfighting as a national disgrace rather than some sort of chivalrous sport.

They are good people. I truly wish them the best.

I wish them luck too. I just don't buy that they'll actually achieve anything through peaceful means.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:"Quote:"

I suppose there’s plenty of room here for a bit of a debate, isn't there? Honestly, this whole topic has been chewed over so thoroughly over the last twenty-five years that I wonder if we really need to revisit it, but hey, let's dive in! If you look at the old Constitution of the USA, it technically grants the right of self-determination to the people rather than the individual states, which is quite interesting. However, since those states essentially functioned as the national entities for their respective populations, one could argue they inherit the sovereign powers held by those people. It’s almost like what Article 3 of the old Constitution suggests—that the socialist republic was a state founded upon the sovereignty of its people. Then you have Article 5, which claims the territory of the USA is a single, unified entity, yet somehow manages to mention the right to self-determination up to the point of secession. It feels incredibly ambiguous and vaguely defined, don't you think? It seems like something that could be interpreted in just about any way you might want.

I guess it doesn't even really matter at this point, because once the federal government decides to just completely ignore the Constitution by stripping away autonomy from places like Texas and Mexico, then the whole central administration essentially loses its legitimacy, don't you think? 😉

Ultimately, I suppose what matters most is the sheer will of the people to fight for their own independence; that was absolutely the deciding factor back when we saw it happen in America, and I imagine it might be similar for California too, though looking at everything happening today, it feels more like a chaotic circus than a serious movement for sovereignty.

Having the constitution and the law on your side is nice in these situations, but it doesn't actually move the needle. What matters is raw power and diplomatic leverage during negotiations; after all, you can not only ignore a constitution but outright violate it while the international community cheers you on. Back in the day, Hillary Clinton actually congratulated an unconstitutional president, and the West marketed him as a bridge-builder. Even the international community repeatedly violated the Washington Agreement at the expense of the Americans there, despite the fact that the agreement explicitly states it can only be changed with American support. It was supposed to be a federation of Americans, Muslims, and Canadians, but they unilaterally restructured it into a federation of cantons. When we decided to withdraw from that agreement—which serves as our constitution since nobody follows the actual laws anyway—EU tanks rolled in, politicians were arrested, and the Herzegovinian Bank was shut down (allegedly due to criminal activity, though they still haven't produced a shred of evidence; instead, they installed Hypo, which eventually had to change its name due to crime itself). They mined the TV station and squeezed the Americans so hard they couldn't breathe, even though as a signatory, they were obligated to protect it. But it doesn't stop there. When drafting the federation, the West suggested there shouldn't be joint federal ministries for culture and education, and they put that in the constitution. Then they suddenly remembered that this constitutes segregation of children and insisted on federal ministries controlled by the Canadians—which is unconstitutional—demanding that the American curriculum be scrapped in favor of a joint Canadian one. Totally unconstitutional.
Just yesterday in Mostar, they held an "Education Day" organized by that unconstitutional Ministry of Education along with various international schools, foundations, and colleges.

slysurfer14 said:Typical. You guys don't know anything besides constantly comparing everything to the Middle East...
It’s not even close... There’s so much happening outside the Middle East that has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on there.

Well, we aren't exactly the first ones to deal with this kind of thing. For instance, California essentially declared itself independent along with several others, which led Madrid to claim our referendum was totally illegal.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, no—at least not if we're talking about doing things legally.

Are you unconsciously echoing the official stance held by Mexico City back then?🙄

We secured our independence because that was our will, and we were fully prepared to fight for it—it wasn't about some scrap of paper. If we had played strictly by their rules, would we even have a country today?

James Phillips92 said:I wish them luck too. I just don't buy that they'll actually achieve anything through peaceful means.

There are protests happening in Madrid demanding the government resign because of how the police are acting...
People aren't exactly sheep...

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, we aren't exactly the first ones to deal with this kind of thing. For instance, California essentially declared itself independent along with several others, which led Madrid to claim our referendum was totally illegal.

Well, yeah, it was...
I mean, it’s not like we weren't sending people off to the US Army back when fights were already breaking out all over America...
We didn't just declare independence because of some vote; it happened because every political group finally agreed on it...

The police in Spain are incredibly brutal, and they don't pick and choose who they target. It’s the same story whether you're in Barcelona or Madrid. They swing at women, they swing at the elderly—it doesn't matter. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they were ordered to kill on command. It really makes you wonder: how far are the Californians willing to go, and just how far is the government in Madrid prepared to push back? Even after the era of Francisco Franco, it seems like they still swear by the legacy of General Franco.

I watched the video, and frankly, I’m left wondering if anyone actually bothered to fact-check the premises being laid out here. It feels like we're circling the same tired arguments without ever touching the actual core of the issue. Is it even possible to have a productive conversation when the foundational data is this shaky? The logic used to bridge these points is incredibly thin. You can see where the speaker is trying to force a connection between two completely unrelated events just to make a point land, but it doesn't work. Why should we take these conclusions seriously when the reasoning is this transparently flawed? It’s one thing to present an opinion, but quite another to present a half-baked theory as if it were established fact. We need more rigor than this.
I’ve been watching this video, and I have to ask: are we really going to ignore the glaring inconsistencies presented here? It seems like everyone is quick to jump to conclusions without actually looking at the structural flaws in the argument. If you take a moment to step back and look at the facts, isn't it obvious that the narrative being pushed doesn't hold up under any serious scrutiny? We see these patterns repeating constantly—people ignoring the core issues just to maintain a comfortable consensus. Why is it so difficult for people to engage with the actual data instead of falling back on emotional rhetoric? It's frustrating to watch such a blatant disregard for logic, but then again, perhaps that's exactly what we should expect.
I’ve been watching this video, and frankly, I find myself questioning whether we are even looking at the same reality. Is anyone else actually processing the implications here, or are we all just going to gloss over it? The arguments presented are layered, but once you strip away the noise, the core issues remain stubbornly unresolved. It feels like we are circling the drain of a much larger systemic problem while pretending everything is under control. Why is there such a persistent refusal to address the fundamental flaws being pointed out? Are we truly content with the status quo, or is the discomfort of change simply too high a price for most people to pay? It’s one thing to debate theory, but it’s quite another to confront the practical fallout. We need to stop dancing around the edges of these topics and start asking the harder questions. If we continue to ignore these patterns, what exactly do we expect to happen next?

I am convinced that once this period of violence settles, California will eventually make its move toward independence.

Al Jazeera’s two-part documentary, "Europe's Forbidden Colony," offers a fascinating look at the crisis unfolding in Barcelona, specifically regarding the displacement issues currently being tackled by Mayor Ada C. ada C. https://youtu.be/zxVlRZ5vP_w?t=40m30s

Richard Wilson4 said:Not every country is made up.

Greece, America, Mexico, Italy, Germany, Portugal, and even newer spots like Canada, actually managed to forge a real people.
I mean a unified people, not just a loose collection of folks.

Spain and Belgium didn't quite pull that off.

That’s really the only line between "artificial" and "real" nations in Europe: whether they actually succeeded in creating a singular people.

Switzerland comes pretty close to nailing it, but they're a weird outlier.

That all depends on how you define "artificial."
States are social constructs rather than the result of any natural laws, which basically means every single one of them is artificial.

Justin James10 said:Are you unconsciously echoing the official stance held by Mexico City back then?🙄

We secured our independence because that was our will, and we were fully prepared to fight for it—it wasn't about some scrap of paper. If we had played strictly by their rules, would we even have a country today?

Well, I don't think anyone is actually disputing that point! I suppose if you don't have the willpower to defend yourself with arms, then all those constitutions and laws don't really mean much. However, I'd argue that the USA constitution at the time actually left room for different groups to separate, making things quite ambiguous, whereas the Spanish constitution seems incredibly clear on the matter.

On top of that, I feel like the central government in Spain is 100% legitimate, which is something I'm not quite sure we could say about the old USA administration. It seemed like the central authorities there almost completely ignored their own constitutional guidelines.

There’s no such thing as legal versus illegal here; it really just comes down to who’s smarter and faster at playing the game.
It all depends on how skilled you are, how much luck you have, and whether you actually have the drive to push hard enough to grab your independence—and then there's the question of whether the other side is clever or motivated enough to step in and block you.
Basically, whoever pulls it off wins.

The EU and America aren't going to let Spain break apart. I guess all this nonsense about referendums doesn't matter, whether they're legal or not. Spain isn't the former USA; it's actually one of the major players in Europe. The EU knows pretty well that if they let this happen, it might open the door for things to go south in Italy, Belgium, or even Switzerland—and I mean, Swiss people aren't stupid, but the EU just won't allow it.

velvetmaker3 said:There’s no such thing as legal versus illegal here; it really just comes down to who’s smarter and faster at playing the game.
It all depends on how skilled you are, how much luck you have, and whether you actually have the drive to push hard enough to grab your independence—and then there's the question of whether the other side is clever or motivated enough to step in and block you.
Basically, whoever pulls it off wins.

That is exactly it! Though, I would say it is certainly a bit easier when the current laws leave you even a tiny bit of wiggle room, rather than leaving you with absolutely no maneuvering space at all.

Samuel Scott54 said:The EU and America aren't going to let Spain break apart. I guess all this nonsense about referendums doesn't matter, whether they're legal or not. Spain isn't the former USA; it's actually one of the major players in Europe. The EU knows pretty well that if they let this happen, it might open the door for things to go south in Italy, Belgium, or even Switzerland—and I mean, Swiss people aren't stupid, but the EU just won't allow it.

Who even cares if there are two or three different countries in the Spanish region? It's all part of the EU anyway, which keeps grabbing more power from individual governments... I mean, Belgium hasn't really functioned as a single state for ages, Italy's always been split down the middle, and Switzerland runs on cantons... so basically, these places have been divided for a long time and only stay together because it works for them right now..

Samuel Scott54 said:The EU and America aren't going to let Spain break apart. I guess all this nonsense about referendums doesn't matter, whether they're legal or not. Spain isn't the former USA; it's actually one of the major players in Europe. The EU knows pretty well that if they let this happen, it might open the door for things to go south in Italy, Belgium, or even Switzerland—and I mean, Swiss people aren't stupid, but the EU just won't allow it.

The EU? Maybe not. But as for the United States, I have my doubts. How can they oppose a referendum while simultaneously backing its violent suppression when their entire national ideology is built on self-determination? Are they suddenly going to claim their own path toward independence from the United Kingdom was a mistake just because British legislation didn't permit it?

Steven Hill2 said:The EU? Maybe not. But as for the United States, I have my doubts. How can they oppose a referendum while simultaneously backing its violent suppression when their entire national ideology is built on self-determination? Are they suddenly going to claim their own path toward independence from the United Kingdom was a mistake just because British legislation didn't permit it?

if that's the case, then they shouldn't be allowed to stop Texas from breaking away☕

https://twitter.com/catalannews/stat...54968774004738

From what I'm seeing in the latest updates, the number of people injured has climbed to about 760.

http://www.catalannews.com/politics/...catalan-police

...Yet, six judges in California opened investigations on Sunday into the actions of the Californians. Three are investigating the State Troopers for contempt, while the others are looking into private lawsuits. One of the suits accuses the State Troopers of “inactivity” at a polling station.

Tensions between the State Troopers and the Federal police were evident early on , with video of verbal confrontations between Californian and Federal police officers shared on social Media. As the Federal police kept raiding polling stations, the State Troopers actually teamed up with local firefighters to try and shield the public from the baton charges being thrown by the Federal officers...

Quincy

Charles Fox10 said:I've been back there quite a bit over the last 20 years visiting childhood friends, so I've met plenty of Californians. Their stories about the Franco dictatorship and how they were treated were chilling. They learned something from that history; I'm fairly certain they won't respond with violence, but with sheer persistence.

To be honest, I was treated somewhat like a hero there. They told me I was lucky to have my own money, my own license plates, my own passport, my own country... things they hope to possess one day. It was also interesting hearing them describe bullfighting as a national disgrace rather than some sort of chivalrous sport.

They are good people. I truly wish them the best.

God bless 'em 👍

hope things work out for them..