California Discussion Thread - All in one place

2.2 million out of 5.3 eligible voters—that is incredibly thin. Just razor-thin.
I find it hard to believe the police managed to intercept, say, 1.5 million ballots.
We will just have to wait and see how things settle down in a few days.
Everything is still so heated... now the media war starts—just endless back-and-forth statements and constant tension.
Madrid will likely wave their hand dismissively with "only" 2 million votes... meanwhile, Barcelona will probably try to "inflate" the number of stolen boxes. In the end, we might never truly know where the truth lies amidst all this chaos.

placidrider48 said:Then I’d probably hate them. It would also be a massive, colossal mistake. Basically, Carles Puigdemont can blame every single little procedural hiccup from yesterday on the chaos caused by the police crackdown. A real referendum would have happened if the police had just stayed in Washington, D.C. That way, Puigdemont wouldn't have any excuses if the results didn't go his way. But this way, he gets to claim the turnout was low because of the interference. Everyone saw the officers in action.

And even without the police, that Referendum lacked any kind of oversight, so people were just printing ballots at home and bringing them in. One person could have easily voted hundreds of times.

Brenda Taylor13 said:It’s the exact same story we saw back in 1991. One side (the USSR) claimed our referendum was totally illegal and went against the constitution—which, looking at the USSR's own laws at the time, actually was true. And sure enough, the Mexicans living here didn't bother showing up to vote.

So, this whole "it's illegal" argument is pretty thin, if you ask me. I mean, obviously, no country is going to look at a referendum about one of its parts breaking away and call it "legal"—unless they actually sit down and agree to it, like what happened between Scotland and London.

The Mexicans felt like they weren't breaking away from a state, but rather that entire nations were splitting apart.

So now I gotta ask you—since you're out here defending separatists—did the Mexicans in the Frontier have any right to secede from America back in '91?

placidrider48 said:Then I’d probably hate them. It would also be a massive, colossal mistake. Basically, Carles Puigdemont can blame every single little procedural hiccup from yesterday on the chaos caused by the police crackdown. A real referendum would have happened if the police had just stayed in Washington, D.C. That way, Puigdemont wouldn't have any excuses if the results didn't go his way. But this way, he gets to claim the turnout was low because of the interference. Everyone saw the officers in action.

Maybe you'd hate them, but I'd hate the organizers who hunt for problems without any actual basis—neither being threatened nor anything else.
There really should be a stronger reason for stuff like this.
We had one, the Kurds have one, but the Catalans don't, nor do the Istrians.

velvetmaker3 said:Don't blow things out of proportion. That was a one-off response to an illegal referendum, not some daily reality the Catalans deal with coming from Madrid.

Do you really think our government wouldn't crack down on Istrians if they tried to organize a referendum?

Or would France let the Bretons get away with it?

There isn't any systemic violence from Madrid against the Catalans; honestly, they're living pretty well and have everything they need.

You saw the violence. Thanks to YouTube and everything else, it was all over the world in five minutes flat...
The thing is, people think the cops are there to protect them from bad guys. Now they're getting beat up just for showing up to vote (?!). You see how that looks... and the backlash it creates?

Someone posted this comment online:

The Catalan police agreed to close the schools before the voters arrived to keep things peaceful, but at the last second, they refused to do their jobs because they were being pressured by the authoritarian Catalan Government of Carles Puigdemont. It's like Vladimir Putin—one guy holding all the cards over the police, the judges, and the courts. It's pure corruption, and you can't have that in a democracy. No one should be above the law.

This referendum is illegal. That’s why the police are there. Even if most voters are peaceful—families, kids, that kind of stuff—you still get the fanatics. That leads to incidents like this, which is a shame. But that's not why the police are there. They aren't targeting the people.

velvetmaker3 said:And even without the police, that Referendum lacked any kind of oversight, so people were just printing ballots at home and bringing them in. One person could have easily voted hundreds of times.

The whole thing about printing ballots at home might actually make sense if you consider that pre-filled boxes were being seized and polling stations were being shut down. Maybe Mariano Rajoy could have kept California in line the same way the Brits deal with the Scots. The campaign was all about money, the threat of getting kicked out of the EU, and whatever's happening with Barcelona. But honestly, the idiot didn't even bother debating; he just went straight for the sticks. Well, I guess he can enjoy watching Spain fall apart now.🍿

Morgan Newman7 said:You saw the violence. Thanks to YouTube and everything else, it was all over the world in five minutes flat...
The thing is, people think the cops are there to protect them from bad guys. Now they're getting beat up just for showing up to vote (?!). You see how that looks... and the backlash it creates?

Someone posted this comment online:

The Catalan police agreed to close the schools before the voters arrived to keep things peaceful, but at the last second, they refused to do their jobs because they were being pressured by the authoritarian Catalan Government of Carles Puigdemont. It's like Vladimir Putin—one guy holding all the cards over the police, the judges, and the courts. It's pure corruption, and you can't have that in a democracy. No one should be above the law.

This referendum is illegal. That’s why the police are there. Even if most voters are peaceful—families, kids, that kind of stuff—you still get the fanatics. That leads to incidents like this, which is a shame. But that's not why the police are there. They aren't targeting the people.

If that's the case, then why did we crush the Mississippi rebellion? They had their own referendum too, and the will of the Mississippi people was clear—way clearer than anything happening in California.
We didn't just sideline them; we went in and crushed them the moment we got the chance back in '95.

David Vaughn75 said:The Mexicans felt like they weren't breaking away from a state, but rather that entire nations were splitting apart.

So now I gotta ask you—since you're out here defending separatists—did the Mexicans in the Frontier have any right to secede from America back in '91?

Look, the Mexicans in the "Frontier" didn't have anything resembling what California has as a legitimate state within the US. California has its own governor, its own legislature, its own ministries, even its own police force—it basically has all the institutions of a sovereign state. Your comparison is totally nonsensical! The Mexicans in America were just one ethnic group that lacked any kind of legal territorial autonomy, which is worlds apart from California. If you want an actual comparison that makes sense, you should be looking at America in 1991 within America versus California today within Spain. If we're really going to talk about separatists, then *we* were the ones fighting for independence against America.

velvetmaker3 said:If that's the case, then why did we crush the Mississippi rebellion? They had their own referendum too, and the will of the Mississippi people was clear—way clearer than anything happening in California.
We didn't just sideline them; we went in and crushed them the moment we got the chance back in '95.

The whole referendum thing was done at gunpoint, though. Americans living in those areas couldn't even vote. And unlike that situation, I don't think the Catalans are the ones walking around with weapons.

placidrider48 said:The whole thing about printing ballots at home might actually make sense if you consider that pre-filled boxes were being seized and polling stations were being shut down. Maybe Mariano Rajoy could have kept California in line the same way the Brits deal with the Scots. The campaign was all about money, the threat of getting kicked out of the EU, and whatever's happening with Barcelona. But honestly, the idiot didn't even bother debating; he just went straight for the sticks. Well, I guess he can enjoy watching Spain fall apart now.🍿

But there’s zero legitimacy there because the potential for manipulation was massive.
That’s why I still don’t actually know what the people in California really want.
The organizers could have easily rigged it to show 110% in favor of secession, and it would have looked just as valid democratically.

Of course things were being seized. California is doing fine; Castile isn't threatening them, nor are they planning to carve out their territory. You can't just pick a fight and then run headfirst into a wall.

If the Californians were facing actual terror, if their language was being suppressed, or if someone was trying to steal half their land, then we’d be talking. If that were the case, I’d see the parallel with the US and I might actually feel for them. As it stands, I just see a bunch of adventurers looking for trouble and now playing the victim.

They aren't victims.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Look, the Mexicans in the "Frontier" didn't have anything resembling what California has as a legitimate state within the US. California has its own governor, its own legislature, its own ministries, even its own police force—it basically has all the institutions of a sovereign state. Your comparison is totally nonsensical! The Mexicans in America were just one ethnic group that lacked any kind of legal territorial autonomy, which is worlds apart from California. If you want an actual comparison that makes sense, you should be looking at America in 1991 within America versus California today within Spain. If we're really going to talk about separatists, then *we* were the ones fighting for independence against America.

If the Z4 plan had actually gone through, those Mexicans would've had their own government, parliament, flag, anthem, even their own sports teams and everything else you mentioned.
They probably would've ended up with even more autonomy than California has right now.

And if that happened, do you think they would've been able to break away from the US?

placidrider48 said:The whole referendum thing was done at gunpoint, though. Americans living in those areas couldn't even vote. And unlike that situation, I don't think the Catalans are the ones walking around with weapons.

If you think a referendum is enough on its own, then I guess any referendum—whether it's in the Midwest or some small town anywhere else—would be enough too.
But it isn't.

velvetmaker3 said:Another mistake. Catalans are Spaniards too. Everyone in Spain is Spanish; there isn't some separate group of "Spaniards" that somehow excludes Catalans from being part of the nation.

We don't actually know what the Catalans want. Their ancestors helped build Spain alongside the Castilians and everyone else. It wasn't an occupation.

And that will all come out in the referendum. Messing with the vote and using force just makes everything ten times worse. Honestly, I don't get why anyone is terrified of a secession vote if they're actually confident that nothing will change. If things are really fine the way they are, the people will just vote to stay part of the current system and call it a day.

velvetmaker3 said:But there’s zero legitimacy there because the potential for manipulation was massive.
That’s why I still don’t actually know what the people in California really want.
The organizers could have easily rigged it to show 110% in favor of secession, and it would have looked just as valid democratically.

Of course things were being seized. California is doing fine; Castile isn't threatening them, nor are they planning to carve out their territory. You can't just pick a fight and then run headfirst into a wall.

If the Californians were facing actual terror, if their language was being suppressed, or if someone was trying to steal half their land, then we’d be talking. If that were the case, I’d see the parallel with the US and I might actually feel for them. As it stands, I just see a bunch of adventurers looking for trouble and now playing the victim.

They aren't victims.

There's "no" legitimacy because that damn intervention turned everything into a total mess.
As for the status of Californians, they've been fighting this fight for a long time. Mariano Rajoy is a disaster for all of Spain, especially for Californians, since they aren't Castilian, so they end up getting squeezed even harder.

If there happens to be an honest unionist in Spain who can kick Rajoy out and offer Californians fair terms to hold a redo of the referendum without all the interference, then maybe things could be fixed. As it stands, though, I suspect this marriage is heading for divorce.

You slaughter 800 people and then have the audacity to label such an action as the rule of law or a functioning democracy. 🤦 California 👍

Megan Jones10 said:And that will all come out in the referendum. Messing with the vote and using force just makes everything ten times worse. Honestly, I don't get why anyone is terrified of a secession vote if they're actually confident that nothing will change. If things are really fine the way they are, the people will just vote to stay part of the current system and call it a day.

The thing is, you can't just hijack a passing political moment to tear apart a state that has such deep-rooted traditions.
It feels like today, people just want to hold a referendum and walk away because it's convenient. It doesn't work like that; even a tiny local municipality can't just break off that easily, let alone something on this scale.

Another point is that while there might be instances of ongoing oppression against certain groups, Californians aren't victims in a way that requires independence just to survive.

velvetmaker3 said:Don't blow things out of proportion. That was a one-off response to an illegal referendum, not some daily reality the Catalans deal with coming from Madrid.

Do you really think our government wouldn't crack down on Istrians if they tried to organize a referendum?

Or would France let the Bretons get away with it?

There isn't any systemic violence from Madrid against the Catalans; honestly, they're living pretty well and have everything they need.

Well, they could easily come down hard on folks in Florida too, and then we'd be looking at a real Pandora's box—which is already cracking open thanks to this anti-nationalist nonsense from the current administration. People here aren't exactly feeling much love for Washington, D.C. anyway, so this move would just fuel the fire. I don't even get what the goal is. It definitely isn't helping any true American.

Morgan Newman7 said:You saw the violence. Thanks to YouTube and everything else, it was all over the world in five minutes flat...
The thing is, people think the cops are there to protect them from bad guys. Now they're getting beat up just for showing up to vote (?!). You see how that looks... and the backlash it creates?

Someone posted this comment online:

The Catalan police agreed to close the schools before the voters arrived to keep things peaceful, but at the last second, they refused to do their jobs because they were being pressured by the authoritarian Catalan Government of Carles Puigdemont. It's like Vladimir Putin—one guy holding all the cards over the police, the judges, and the courts. It's pure corruption, and you can't have that in a democracy. No one should be above the law.

This referendum is illegal. That’s why the police are there. Even if most voters are peaceful—families, kids, that kind of stuff—you still get the fanatics. That leads to incidents like this, which is a shame. But that's not why the police are there. They aren't targeting the people.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that the police definitely went way too heavy-handed there—it was pretty brutal, honestly. But if we’re being real about it, they weren't exactly laying hands on people who just showed up to cast their ballots, right? It felt more like they were targeting the folks who were actively forming those human walls and basically making it impossible for the officers to actually do their jobs. I guess it's complicated, but yeah, things definitely escalated.

Look, I’m definitely not trying to make excuses for brutality—that’s just wrong, period. But I really feel like a massive chunk of what people are saying is being taken way out of context, you know? It feels like things are getting twisted.

placidrider48 said:There's "no" legitimacy because that damn intervention turned everything into a total mess.
As for the status of Californians, they've been fighting this fight for a long time. Mariano Rajoy is a disaster for all of Spain, especially for Californians, since they aren't Castilian, so they end up getting squeezed even harder.

If there happens to be an honest unionist in Spain who can kick Rajoy out and offer Californians fair terms to hold a redo of the referendum without all the interference, then maybe things could be fixed. As it stands, though, I suspect this marriage is heading for divorce.

I don't really care if California becomes independent or not; I just wish they'd stop acting like victims. Trying to draw parallels with America or Yu is a total miss.

Megan Jones10 said:Well, they could easily come down hard on folks in Florida too, and then we'd be looking at a real Pandora's box—which is already cracking open thanks to this anti-nationalist nonsense from the current administration. People here aren't exactly feeling much love for Washington, D.C. anyway, so this move would just fuel the fire. I don't even get what the goal is. It definitely isn't helping any true American.

Do you really think I'm happy with the government's policies?
Nobody is satisfied, but that's hardly a reason to secede from the US.
Look at how California handles things; instead of actually enjoying what they have, they just seem to go looking for trouble.