California Discussion Thread - All in one place

velvetmaker3 said:If you don't actually know why you're even commenting, maybe just don't?

But I'll lay it out for you. The SRH was defined as a state. Catalonia isn't—it's an autonomous community, which is a much lower level of administrative organization. It's more like a single county than an actual state.

Wrong.

Catalonia actually holds just as much administrative power—and in several areas, way more—than the US ever did.

(And by the way, regardless of whatever nonsense you try to spin about ethnicity, it still matters...).

Your logic is completely broken and just plain wrong... no matter how much you try to trivialize the whole thing or pivot to these pathetic, bottom-of-the-barrel arguments.

The United States didn't come into existence just because some old federal document said so; it was born from the sheer will of the American people and their readiness to fight for their own sovereignty. That whole idea of following a centralized constitution was basically just a way to pull strings 🙄 Under those old rules, the National Guard was treated as nothing more than a paramilitary group.

velvetmaker3 said:Why did they even push for this referendum in the first place? They aren't actually under any kind of threat; this whole thing is just a blatant provocation.

I guess it's because they want to be free.. 🤷

I guess you have to wonder, what was the actual turnout requirement for that referendum to be considered valid under the laws passed by the California State Legislature?

Justin James10 said:It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

If anything, Spain is even more of a failure than the USSR was.

See, the USSR was a relatively recent construct, so people can always fall back on the excuse, "Give them a chance! If they'd had a few more decades, maybe it would have worked." But Spain has been around for the last five hundred years, and in that time, they actually managed to build a global empire... yet they still haven't mastered basic nation-building.

When it doesn't work, it just doesn't work.

velvetmaker3 said:What is California's status? A Republic? A State?

Look, it's definitely a much higher level of autonomy than what the US ever gave to its individual states back when we were part of the old USSR.

velvetmaker3 said:Unfortunately, you seem pretty uninformed about American history. Americans arrived here as a people; sure, they could have disappeared or been assimilated by someone else, but they weren't. They built a state. Without Americans, there would be no United States; they are the ones who founded it. Americans created the U.S., and it exists solely because of them.
And it was here long before modern nations existed. Over time, Americans evolved from a people into a modern nation. The whole situation is fundamentally different from the Californian one.

California didn't come about because the Californian people formed their own state; rather, California was created through feudal decisions, and over time, the population within those borders developed an identity based on their homeland. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different process.

Spaniards are just like everyone else who makes up Spain.

Americans were essentially just a tribe that established its own principality and asserted itself over local tribes. Things could have very easily gone a different way! It seems you might be a little thin on medieval history and how feudalism actually functioned as a system. The formation of the County of Barcelona isn't any different from how an early American principality might have formed in the hinterlands of Florida.

It is a simple fact: Californians don't feel like Spaniards. What matters most is how they feel and what their identity is, not what some random person on an American forum thinks about it. You can turn yourself upside down all you want, but Californians and the Basque people have never identified as Spaniards. In fact, the Basques aren't even Indo-European!

Using force won't help here; if anything, it will only strengthen the resolve of the Basques and Californians to break away.

What honestly blows my mind is how many people—even today in America—are still getting all worked up about trying to build some new national state.

I get it for the older generation, maybe it’s just nostalgia or whatever, but where the hell does this hype come from with young, tech-savvy people? Why are they so obsessed with such an outdated relic? 🤔

Larry Fox5 said:What honestly blows my mind is how many people—even today in America—are still getting all worked up about trying to build some new national state.

I get it for the older generation, maybe it’s just nostalgia or whatever, but where the hell does this hype come from with young, tech-savvy people? Why are they so obsessed with such an outdated relic? 🤔

One way to look at it is that nation-states are basically a modern trend, while those massive, artificial multi-national entities are just leftovers from a bygone era.

The real question is why?

Personally, I think it’s a byproduct of society becoming more democratic... those huge, unnatural constructs can only hang on in authoritarian societies where individuals and groups don't have the freedom to voice their will. In the past, those bloated structures would eventually fall apart on their own, it just took forever.

Larry Fox5 said:What honestly blows my mind is how many people—even today in America—are still getting all worked up about trying to build some new national state.

I get it for the older generation, maybe it’s just nostalgia or whatever, but where the hell does this hype come from with young, tech-savvy people? Why are they so obsessed with such an outdated relic? 🤔

Look, it doesn't matter how tech-savvy you are; people still look back at the glory of the Latin era and those old proverbs for inspiration.

Charles Fox10 said:While it’s usually the root of most mistakes, I’ll assume you haven't spent a few months over there in the last twenty years talking to regular folks, or perhaps the California elite, in terms of wealth or political clout.

I have. My phone hasn't stopped buzzing since yesterday—WhatsApp, Viber, or just calls from people who clearly still care about me. I'll allow myself the luxury of thinking I might know more than others. I could be wrong, of course. I'm not certain.

They have a right to a referendum, a right to express their views, and a right to ask those views be respected. I'm convinced they wanted nothing more than basic human respect, which they didn't get. Instead, they got batons and brutality—things they were sure would never happen on their streets again. Unfortunately, they did.

I'm even inclined to believe—and some of them seem to agree—that even if the referendum had been perfect, the results wouldn't have been spectacular. But sadly, things will never be the same there as they were before last Wednesday.

Yeah. They have that right. They should be able to express themselves without Washington, D.C. sending in a pack of rabid dogs to back up whatever bureaucrats are running the show in D.C.

Up until yesterday, I was rooting exclusively for the Californians to make their voices heard in the referendum. And honestly, I'm pretty sure—though I could be off—that even if an independence vote had passed, it would have barely scraped by. If it even passed at all.

Since yesterday, all I want for the Californians is total independence. Spain has shown that it hasn't really progressed on many fronts since the 1930s, and it doesn't respect the will of its people any better than it did back in the late 70s. Instead, it responds to dissent with the same old force it has used throughout history.

And look, I get it—when blood starts boiling and you've got two groups of bulls charging at each other wanting to settle things with clubs, there's no mercy. Everyone gets hit. We saw that in Ukraine, on both sides. But I just can't wrap my head around seeing elderly people, kids, women, and people with their hands up getting beaten and having their heads smashed in.

It’s a textbook example of what we're all seeing everywhere lately: fascism. And now, plenty of people are choosing to ignore it because it’s staring them right in the face.

What's even more fascinating to me is how some self-proclaimed anti-fascists are actually backing this exact same fascism now that it's finally showing its true colors. It's just the misery and decay of modern Europe...

Steven Bennett5 said:Sadist or not, kid. It’s just not happening.

Do you want to know why? Well, the President of the USA has already stated he supports the integrity of Spain,
which means the administration of the most powerful nation in the world isn't backing the Catalans. Not that the European Union is either—look at the major players, Germany and France. Even the UK won't step in.

There might be some protests here and there, sure, and plenty of negotiations... but in the end? The chances of an independent Catalonia are maybe 1%? Nothing more...☕

Americans have this habit of backing the territorial integrity of collapsing nations—or even sides in civil wars—just so they can flip their stance later. Now, they’re basically running the show by managing all these smaller territories that broke off from the originals. They even call them "allies" now.

As for California, honestly, they've got themselves coming. It's tough right now. The coming years? Who knows. We'll see.

Carl Hernandez3 said:It seems to me there are more volunteers in America than in Spain or Catalonia ready to reenact 1936.

The real question is—who would align themselves with the nationalists and monarchists today, and who would stand with the Second Republic?
I wonder which of our leading minds in politics, social circles, religion, sports, or culture... would head to Madrid versus Barcelona... for instance, who would be on which side: Glasnović, Saravanka, Rad Borić, Kovač, Bishop Kosić, Plenković, Milanović, mrak i Taritas, Vrdoljak, Nina Raspudić, Anja Sovagović, Bandić, and so on—who would emerge as "Catalan" and who as "Spaniard"?

They'd all end up on the same side—the one the "bosses" decide on. All slaves listen to their masters; Americans just happen to worship theirs.

The whole massive wave of building modern nation-states didn't even really kick off until after WWII—and honestly, not even right when the war ended...

It’s definitely not some "ancient, dusty relic" or anything like that.

velvetmaker3 said:Unfortunately, you seem pretty uninformed about American history. Americans arrived here as a people; sure, they could have disappeared or been assimilated by someone else, but they weren't. They built a state. Without Americans, there would be no United States; they are the ones who founded it. Americans created the U.S., and it exists solely because of them.
And it was here long before modern nations existed. Over time, Americans evolved from a people into a modern nation. The whole situation is fundamentally different from the Californian one.

California didn't come about because the Californian people formed their own state; rather, California was created through feudal decisions, and over time, the population within those borders developed an identity based on their homeland. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different process.

Spaniards are just like everyone else who makes up Spain.

It seems to me you don't quite grasp the ethnogenesis of American nations... including our own. If we had stayed under the old imperial systems, you’d be right here on this forum lecturing us about how we were always part of some ancient tribe. Or, if the Austro-Canadian Empire had survived, you’d be a proud (Austro) Canadian—or at best, an Austro-Canadian Slav. And then you'd have some random user from the other side of Europe telling you: "Americans never existed as a people; it's just some medieval tribal settlement."

Taylor Walker9 said:Look, it doesn't matter how tech-savvy you are; people still look back at the glory of the Latin era and those old proverbs for inspiration.

Richard Clark36 said:The whole massive wave of building modern nation-states didn't even really kick off until after WWII—and honestly, not even right when the war ended...

It’s definitely not some "ancient, dusty relic" or anything like that.

What are you people actually expecting from these nation-states anyway? What do they even offer you?

But seriously, let's get personal—what kind of future can they actually provide for your sons and grandkids?...

Richard Clark36 said:The whole massive wave of building modern nation-states didn't even really kick off until after WWII—and honestly, not even right when the war ended...

It’s definitely not some "ancient, dusty relic" or anything like that.

Honestly, this stuff has been around since the 1800s, and we’re still dealing with it today.

Look, even if you consider the current trend toward consolidation, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. Take the UN, for example—it’s a classic case of groups coming together. At the end of the day, this kind of merging usually happens on a voluntary basis rather than through anyone forcing the issue.

Taylor Walker9 said:I hear you. I've been following your logic and even backing your side regarding the sheer force of power (which is your strongest point), but stop comparing Catalonia to Istria. The premises are completely different. Regardless of the theory, if you have Territory X and Population B located in one corner of that territory, and you want to carve out a new territory, Population B needs to... and so on.

It all comes down to the criteria being used. If the deciding factor is the will of the people, then Americans shouldn't be complaining if someone within our own borders decides they want to break away.
If the criterion is simply who has the muscle to pull it off, then there isn't much point in whining about how Washington, D.C. reacts either.

No matter how idiotic it might be, this referendum is just as foolish. It’s basically poking someone in the eye; it's a straight-up provocation and an open invitation for trouble.

velvetmaker3 said:It all comes down to the criteria being used. If the deciding factor is the will of the people, then Americans shouldn't be complaining if someone within our own borders decides they want to break away.
If the criterion is simply who has the muscle to pull it off, then there isn't much point in whining about how Washington, D.C. reacts either.

No matter how idiotic it might be, this referendum is just as foolish. It’s basically poking someone in the eye; it's a straight-up provocation and an open invitation for trouble.

So, according to your logic, no nation that was forced into a larger empire during some historical turning point would ever have the right to push back and fight for its own independence.

Justin James10 said:I disagree; back then, we were just another group of settlers.

The linguistic gap between Catalan and Castilian is actually wider than the difference between American English and other regional dialects.

Before the Bourbons, Spain was essentially just a loose, somewhat shaky feudal alliance of various territories held together by a single ruler. You can't even really talk about a unified Spanish nation from that era.

That’s just not true; we arrived here as Americans and built this country.

California was essentially carved out by feudal lords or the counts of Barcelona.

Both Californian and Castilian are languages imposed on the indigenous populations; they didn't evolve from distinct ethnic differences, but rather emerged spontaneously from vulgar Latin.

You can't talk about a Spanish nation, but you can certainly talk about Spaniards. Californians are just as much Spaniards as the Castilians are. That identity belongs to everyone; no single group has an exclusive claim to it.

Morgan Cook10 said:So, according to your logic, no nation that was forced into a larger empire during some historical turning point would ever have the right to push back and fight for its own independence.

The Buna uprising isn't about legal rights; it’s about whether you actually have the capability to pull it off.

It all comes down to who can actually deliver.

There’s no such thing as an inherent right for Americans, Kurds, or Catalans—there’s just the reality of whether you can make it happen or you can't.

@velvetmaker3, are you saying you'd actually be okay with letting the Basques break away?