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Forgiveness: Is it a sign of weakness or strength?

Started by William Williams27 · · 👁 9 views · 118 replies

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Participants William Williams27Harold Adams5mistybisonboldmaker8mistyscout2Hannah Thomas13stormycobra90Brenda Cook4Jonathan Brooks8darkfalcon47David Miller15briskgull4Taylor Campbell4Sean Cook2hollowrider23silentridge8crimsonhound80rustymaker5swiftcobra15William Gonzalez3wiredcobra22Andrew Richardson8Kyle Nelson2amberviper39 …
mistybison mistybison Regular
495 messages
joined Aug 2008
#41 ·
Sean Cook2 said:It is quite common for them to be caught off guard by the reaction of a victim who expresses their feelings and chooses to forgive. I truly believe there aren't that many people out there who are completely devoid of a conscience...

The desire for that kind of conversation has to come from the offender. They need to feel genuine remorse and actively seek forgiveness. If they don't, it simply shows they don't care. There is no point in offering forgiveness to someone who isn't asking for it. Doing so only leaves us vulnerable to being hurt again—if nothing else, by their coldness and lack of interest. I wouldn't go so far as to call everyone monsters, but I do think most people are fundamentally selfish and egocentric, rarely truly caring about others.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#42 ·
Galatea said:Forgiveness isn't a sign of weakness; it’s an act of strength. It isn't foolishness either—it's wisdom. At its core, forgiveness is pure nobility.

Unlike simply suppressing our feelings, using altruism, sublimation, and even humor are three of the most mature and effective psychological defense mechanisms that allow true forgiveness to take place.



Let’s be honest: forgiveness isn't easy, and it certainly isn't simple enough to be boiled down to a few basic rules.

Generally speaking, there are three ways a person who causes harm relates to the person who might forgive them.

a) If the person causing the harm holds absolute power over you, it is incredibly difficult to even imagine the possibility of forgiving them.
In those cases, I tend to run. I try to avoid the hurt altogether, and if I do get wounded, I find myself dreaming of getting even.

b) When we are on equal footing—socially or otherwise—there is a mutual possibility for us to hurt one another or to be hurt.

In this scenario, any path is on the table: we can walk away, seek revenge, or choose to forgive.

Some people might think this is the most common situation (and that we can just ignore options A and C to focus only on B), but that isn't really the case.
I believe instances of social inequality are much more significant, and the confusion often stems from blurring the lines between being in a position of inferiority or superiority.

c) If I hold the upper hand over someone who hurts me, forgiveness becomes the only logical solution that presents itself. We tend to lash out at those we actually fear or perceive as dangerous and dominant.

Sadly, many people mix up scenarios A and C, mistakenly seeking revenge against those "weaker" than them for wounds inflicted by those in power.



Since forgiveness is such a complex journey, I highly recommend a wonderful book:



Jean Monbourquette:
HOW TO FORGIVE

ISBN: 953-97691-8-3
Category: Popular Psychology
Published: 2002
Publisher: Franciscan Provincial Library
Library:
page count: 207
Binding: Paperback
Format: 4.7 x 8 inches



In this work, the author first explores the very nature of what it means to forgive. He then walks through twelve distinct stages required to reach true forgiveness for both ourselves and others.

http://www.knjizara-ljevak.com/knjig...=953-97691-8-3








Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#43 ·
We can't really talk about "forgiveness" as if it were some single, monolithic thing... because every situation and every wound is so uniquely different.

Even defining what forgiveness actually *is* isn't straightforward. Maybe "acceptance"—a certain kind of "welcoming" of the fact that something happened—is the closest we can get to an explanation.

I completely agree that the perspective of both the one forgiving and the one who was wronged matters immensely. It’s all tied up in things like whether the act was unintentional, or if the offender is actually out there seeking an apology...

When you look at Christian forgiveness through a socio-political lens, it can have massive consequences... and sometimes, it can even result in an injustice toward the victim.
Sean Cook2 Sean Cook2 Member
46 messages
joined Oct 2006
#44 ·
mistybison said:I don't see much point in offering forgiveness to someone who isn't even looking for it. It just leaves us vulnerable to being hurt all over again—if nothing else, by their sheer indifference and coldness. I don't think people are monsters, per se, but most seem inherently selfish and self-centered; they rarely truly care about anyone else.

Forgiveness is necessary for our own sake—and perhaps his, too. Sometimes, the urge to confront someone who hurt you can cause actual physical pain—I know from experience—and that weight only lifts once you've said your piece... a strange, surreal, yet incredibly instructive experience. Now, I’ve mostly dealt with decent people, but I’ve seen documentaries where victims seek out their attackers just to find peace, moving past thoughts of revenge or even self-destruction...

It's also strange how, even in cases of mass violence—like that Canadian convicted of war crimes against Mexicans in an American documentary I saw—you can find a complex individual, maybe even artistically gifted. Once you're pulled into their motives, you almost find yourself empathizing... If we offer forgiveness to someone like that, there might be a purpose to it—perhaps providing them with a path they've never had before.
William Gonzalez3 William Gonzalez3 Regular
276 messages
joined May 2009
#45 ·
To me seems like a much more viable option than this idea of forgiveness you all seem to be discussing.

At the end of the day, everyone is flawed—it’s just human nature.

Even those closest to us tend to stumble—whether they mean to or not, I suppose.

And if someone crosses a line once, there's a fair chance they'll do it again.

The most effective thing we can actually do—if I'm being honest—is to pursue a cold, calculated kind of retribution. It ensures they’ll think twice next time, because they'll finally understand that their actions carry consequences—pain and hardship they hadn't even considered before.

That’s at least how I handle things.
Does anyone here actually have experience with forgiving?

Has any of it actually turned out to be a positive thing?
How many times have you truly felt glad that you let something go, versus how many times have you deeply regretted being too lenient?
When you forgive someone, do you ever actually manage to trust them again—or is that trust gone for good?
And if you did decide to trust them, did they actually prove themselves worthy of it?

What happened after that?
rustymaker5 rustymaker5 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2008
#46 ·
rustymaker5 said:

has anyone here actually dealt with forgiveness before?

is there such a thing as a positive outcome?
?


Yeah. You have to forgive for your own sake... otherwise, you're just left carrying around this heavy weight of bitterness and rage, and honestly, that internal anger ends up destroying us way more than whatever bullshit someone else did to us ever could. Maybe you can't just snap your fingers and forgive the second you get hurt, but the sooner we manage to let go, the easier life becomes...
It doesn't really matter who you're forgiving, because they might accept it, or they might not, and frankly, that’s their business and none of ours. (Sometimes, you realize the person isn't even aware they caused any damage in the first place...) The whole point is just getting ourselves back to a state of equilibrium, so we don't burn ourselves out from the inside or keep feeding into that cycle of negativity...

I try to practice forgiveness, and I think I'm getting better at it—which mostly means I'm finding myself in fewer situations where I even need to bother... (And there's this connection there to our own expectations, which is usually why we end up feeling hurt in the first place, often without even realizing we built those expectations ourselves...)
mistybison mistybison Regular
495 messages
joined Aug 2008
#47 ·
Pomona said:It is necessary for our own sake, but also for his. Sometimes the urge to tell someone who hurt you exactly how you feel can cause actual physical pain; I know from experience, and that pain often subsides once you finally express yourself to them... It is a strange and wonderful experience, and absolutely enlightening.

I haven't noticed that. I have never seen expressing one's hurt to the person who caused it have a healing effect. In fact, quite the opposite. Even if I took that step—which would be terrifying for me—I think I would end up feeling even worse. You cannot erase what has happened with a single conversation or monologue (I am talking about things that hit you deeply and truly, which take a long time to heal, not minor insults or small misunderstandings). I prefer to work through my feelings privately rather than dragging others into it. 🙂

Well, I have dealt with normal people, but I have watched documentaries and shows where people talk about exactly that—how they sought out those who harmed their loved ones and how it brought them relief, after having previously thought only of revenge or suicide...

I assume that depends on the individual. Everyone reacts differently, and everyone finds different things helpful. That is why we can only speak from our own experiences, which might not hold any significance for anyone else.

It is strange how, in the case of a mass killer—like that Canadian convicted of war crimes against Mexicans (an American documentary, I can't recall the title)—we can discover a complex person, perhaps even artistically gifted, and when they pull us into their motives and reasons, we find ourselves feeling some level of understanding for them...

When we are at a great distance, completely untouched by what occurred, we can find empathy even for the most monstrous crimes. I once read posts on this forum from a woman describing how she met a man who, during wartime, literally slaughtered children (it is hard to imagine anything worse), and she spoke of finding understanding, compassion, and even love for him. But would it be different if she had watched him kill her own child? Would she still be moved by his fate, or try to understand his motives and his brokenness? Unlikely. 😉

If we offer forgiveness to someone like that, it might make sense; perhaps it is something they have never experienced, and perhaps we are showing them a different way...

People who commit mass atrocities, rape women, or slaughter children—regardless of any "artistic" temperament—are disturbed individuals. They are difficult to "heal," let alone change through forgiveness. Most of the time, such people believe their behavior is perfectly justified and acceptable. In their own worlds, they are right; however, because they are a threat to the rest of humanity, the most we can do is ensure they are prevented from repeating those crimes.
William Gonzalez3 William Gonzalez3 Regular
276 messages
joined May 2009
#48 ·
So, what’s the conclusion then—we shouldn't expect anything from anyone, which means we won't have to deal with the whole business of forgiving?
I also have another somewhat foolish question here.

What does it actually mean, fundamentally, to forgive someone?

And why is there this widespread belief that forgiveness is the only way to purge anger, hatred, and all that—as if revenge wouldn't be just as therapeutic for your soul?
In my view, getting even is much easier than forgiving, and perhaps even more effective in its own way.
Plus, let's be honest—revenge is significantly more entertaining.

I could go big with my retaliation, or I could keep it subtle. I could settle the score all at once, or I could do it in small increments—maybe ten little doses over time.
I could slowly simmer someone over a low flame, dragging out the process indefinitely—or at least until I simply lose interest.
I can certainly find a certain satisfaction in righteous indignation.
But with forgiveness, the dynamic is entirely different.
You forgive them in one single moment, and that’s it. Gone.
It's finished.
You aren't even supposed to bring it up later during an argument as leverage—because apparently, if you do, it means you haven't truly forgiven them in the first place.
Where is the fun in that?
Sean Cook2 Sean Cook2 Member
46 messages
joined Oct 2006
#49 ·
Yes, executioner—the alternative sounds much more entertaining and easy, doesn't it? That’s exactly why so many people take that route.
William Gonzalez3 William Gonzalez3 Regular
276 messages
joined May 2009
#50 ·
I suppose that’s just the path one has to take.

It’s about seeking justice—not offering forgiveness.

To me, retribution is a sign of strength.

Forgiveness... well, that feels more like a sign of weakness—as if people only forgive because they simply don't have the capacity to settle the score.
mistybison mistybison Regular
495 messages
joined Aug 2008
#51 ·
Krvnik said:Has anyone had actual experience with forgiveness?
Has any of it been positive?

For me, true forgiveness is something that happens spontaneously when I am ready for an internal shift. It occurs once all the painful emotions have been expressed and healed, my thoughts have settled, and I gain a new perspective on myself and the person who hurt me. It's when I can view everything as a valuable lesson that made me more resilient. When thinking about the past feels no different than remembering a sad movie I watched a few nights ago, I know I've truly forgiven. 🙂 That feeling is incredibly positive and liberating. On the other hand, I find "forced forgiveness," regardless of the motive, to be extremely stressful and a useless form of self-inflicted violence. It’s deeply negative, so I don't practice it. I believe if someone has already hurt me, I shouldn't hurt myself further by denying my right to feel that pain.

Quincy:
How many times were you glad you forgave, and how many times did you bitterly regret it?
Have you ever managed to trust someone again after forgiving them, or was that trust gone for good?
If you did trust them again, did they earn it back?
What happened next?
I can overlook many things and tolerate certain personality traits that I don't particularly like, but my trust can only be broken once. 🙂 This doesn't mean I will cut that person out of my life entirely—it just means I accept them as someone unreliable and adjust my behavior accordingly. Generally, in my relationships, I start from the assumption that people aren't inherently trustworthy, and usually, that proves to be correct. 😁 Consequently, I find myself being "disappointed" less and less. The fewer expectations we hold for people, the less likely we are to be wounded by who they truly are.
rustymaker5 rustymaker5 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2008
#52 ·
Bloodline said:
what does it even mean to forgive someone...

and why on earth do people assume that letting go of all that rage and hatred is the only way, like, why can't revenge be just as healing for your own soul?...


Well, I already said it, you forgive for your own sake.
I mean, honestly, do you actually feel more satisfied after you've forgiven someone, or is it better when you get your payback? You're free to make whatever choice you want, really... and if that choice leaves you feeling calm and able to sleep through the night without tossing and turning, then it's probably the right one. Just listen to your heart and what it tells you about it...
mistybison mistybison Regular
495 messages
joined Aug 2008
#53 ·
Bloodletter said:So what’s the conclusion then—if we stop expecting anything from anyone, we won't have to deal with forgiveness at all?

Pretty much. 😁

Quincy:
And why do you believe the only way to purge anger and hatred is through other means, rather than assuming revenge could be just as healing for the soul?


I think it would work, but I simply lack the nerve to seek revenge. 😉 Taking revenge requires a certain level of strength and courage, especially since one has to live with the consequences, which are often devastating. It is much easier to grieve, suffer, hold onto resentment, wait for divine justice, and eventually forgive—or simply wait until forgiveness comes naturally. 😉
Taylor Campbell4 Taylor Campbell4 Regular
369 messages
joined Jul 2009
#54 ·
normall said:Well, thanks Taylor Campbell4!

So, it turns out I was wrong—forgiving a total psychopath who kills and destroys is actually the last thing we should do. If we grant them forgiveness, they basically get a free pass to reset their karma, essentially getting a "clean slate" from us just so they can come back and start the whole cycle of violence all over again.
I guess you were thinking that by forgiving them, we might actually help them evolve into better people in their next life—or maybe even save them enough to prevent them from being reborn at all. Hmm... interesting thought process... 🙏

That’s exactly what I meant—Creamer meant exactly what was written. The idea is that karmic consequences would be lessened, rather than completely wiped away.

But if we aren't supposed to forgive them, then what's the alternative?

PS: How do you actually envision these reincarnations working? Are you suggesting some people spend hundreds of thousands of lifetimes doing nothing but harm, while others do nothing but good? Based on our chat, you've likely spent every single one of yours on the righteous side of the ledger.
Sean Cook2 Sean Cook2 Member
46 messages
joined Oct 2006
#55 ·
Sean Cook2 said:It’s easy to find empathy—even for the most horrific crimes—when there’s enough distance between us and the tragedy. I once read a thread here from a woman describing how she met a man who had committed unspeakable atrocities during a war; she claimed she felt nothing but compassion and even love for him. But would that hold up if she were watching him harm her own child? Would she suddenly feel moved to understand his "motives" or his trauma then? Highly unlikely. 😉

I wasn't asked to forgive on your behalf, nor was I. Society doesn't issue pardons for crimes—forgiveness is strictly a personal matter. If people can't manage to rise above their resentment, that destructive energy just fuels more cycles of violence, often justified by a sense of victimhood. It's an old pattern, one we see all the time. The real challenge is figuring out how to break that loop.
Sean Cook2 Sean Cook2 Member
46 messages
joined Oct 2006
#56 ·
sanjana said:I think I would—but I’m far too much of a coward to seek revenge. 😉 Real retribution requires strength and courage, mostly because you have to live with the fallout, which is usually pretty devastating.

It's strange to frame that as being strong or brave—without even a hint of irony. I hope you're being sarcastic, at least...
William Williams27 William Williams27 MemberOP
21 messages
joined Oct 2006
#57 ·
At first, I thought it was just a silly idea, but honestly, you need some serious guts to go after revenge. You have to be brave enough to step up and fight, because one act of retaliation just triggers the next—it’s a cycle where hate only breeds more hate.
Sean Cook2 Sean Cook2 Member
46 messages
joined Oct 2006
#58 ·
When revenge ends up being a total disaster, those who felt so righteous, brave, and powerful in the heat of the moment often wake up to find they just look foolish—cruel, really, and quite weak
to everyone else.
William Williams27 William Williams27 MemberOP
21 messages
joined Oct 2006
#59 ·
Krvnik said:well, that's the only way forward.

vengeance, not forgiveness.

revenge shows strength.

forgiveness is just weakness (people only forgive because they don't have the guts to fight back)

you need courage and hate for revenge, but you need understanding and love to forgive.

revenge just destroys everything, while forgiveness actually builds things up.

can we really live in a world ruled by revenge?
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#60 ·



People who lack the strength to seek justice often lack the capacity to forgive even more.
They tend to withdraw and harbor bitterness, which ultimately destroys them from within.





Only those with the fortitude to confront an injustice can—though they aren't required to—possess the strength to truly forgive.





True forgiveness is reserved for the strongest among us, those who aren't afraid:
fear and forgiveness simply cannot coexist.


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