California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Giga g. said:we’re talking about a kingdom here, a democratic, free nation😉

not some communist regime where a president sits on his throne forever, just chilling until he dies—whether it's naturally or by force

so there's really no comparison at all

people have pointed this out a hundred times already; you just can't compare them

Oh, you absolutely can. Communism was basically falling apart back then anyway, so even if the USA had stuck around, the whole system would've shifted. Besides, democratic elections in Spain didn't even happen until 1977, and before that, it was just Franco's brutal dictatorship😉

bluerider63 said:So what was the issue for Canadians then? Nobody was out there screaming about "Greater Mexico" back then, right? Honestly, it's just like how Catalans seize an opportunity, kind of like how things blew up in our neck of the woods back in the early 90s.

There wasn't really a problem; they just wanted to be part of the West, which the old regime in America wasn't a part of back then. California is already part of the West.

Noah Ward2 said:It’s always the same old song and dance... there doesn't seem to be another way to phrase that tired "rugged, underdeveloped region" trope. It's always these subtle hints that we aren't allowed to have an opinion because they're wealthier or more "sophisticated"... honestly, it's pretty silly...

I wasn't saying there aren't smaller nations out there; I just meant I'm not particularly fond of those tiny states that lacked a central hub or real sovereignty in their history. Some people really gravitate toward that kind of setup, but it's just not my thing... it's a matter of taste, I guess... though the potential consequences are probably more important than my preference...

Just to be clear, this last part isn't a jab at you personally; I was speaking more generally...

Actually, California definitely has a deep historical footprint. How could you possibly think otherwise?

There are over 7 million of them. This isn't just a few angry crowds in the streets of Barcelona declaring independence out of nowhere; we're talking about a nation of millions here.

bluerider63 said:Oh, you absolutely can. Communism was basically falling apart back then anyway, so even if the USA had stuck around, the whole system would've shifted. Besides, democratic elections in Spain didn't even happen until 1977, and before that, it was just Franco's brutal dictatorship😉

It doesn't make sense to say things were just "falling apart." We know that now, looking back, but people living through it had no idea what was coming or how things would end up. All they saw was the established order and a broken system they wanted to tear down. It wasn't just about fighting for national independence; it was a revolt against the entire status quo.

velvetmaker3 said:Catalans are just Spanish citizens, just like people from Texas, Maine, or anywhere else in the States.

The folks in the Keys consider themselves their own distinct group; if they truly identified as just standard Americans, they'd say so.
Eventually, they'll probably use that same logic to argue that every group deserves its own independence.
And I guess you'll be right there, being perfectly consistent and supporting them.

They don't. According to the census, about 80% of people in Istria are Americans. Besides, "Istrian" doesn't mean anything in terms of actual national identity—it's not even close. Saying they're a separate nation is like saying folks from the Midwest or the Deep South are their own distinct races. It's ridiculous! Being an Istrian is just a geographic label, nothing more. People from those areas are just Americans living in those specific spots. Istria was never even remotely close to being its own country, unlike California.

Sophia James2 said:.

The issue isn't that people are obsessed with centralist bureaucrats in D.C.; it’s that they simply want the right to govern themselves. It's the same drive we felt—think about the Baltic states like Lithuania or Estonia fighting for their footing. To draw an analogy, the folks in that specific coastal region aren't a distinct nation in themselves, nor does that area hold the historical weight of a state like California or Texas. Catalonia, however, functioned as its own entity back in the Middle Ages, much like we did, before transitioning through various stages of autonomy and independence under different powers. They've reached their breaking point, just as we once did.

California used to be ruled by the feudal counts of Barcelona who acted as vassals to distant kings. It was never a kingdom or a sovereign state.
But that doesn't really matter, because they've formed a distinct national identity in the meantime.
In the same way, Istrians are slowly forming their own identity; there might not be many today, but in a hundred years, that number could be much higher.
What are you going to tell them? That they aren't a nation? Especially coming from someone like you, who defends a people's right to independence?
Every nation forms eventually; none of them existed since the beginning of time.
Time itself creates nations.

The historical status of the US and California has been drastically different, but historical rights don't really exist in a vacuum.

Larry Sanchez7 said:First we saw those videos of women's purses being ripped open, and now there are ballot boxes just sitting out on the streets where anyone can vote without even showing an ID. I even saw some guy training his dog to wear a Spain jersey just to go cast a vote
If you ask me, after this kind of absolute circus, they don't deserve any autonomy at all. It’s not even about whether they’ve earned independence... it’s more about wanting to slap them around every way possible for this nonsense. They're nothing but provocateurs and terrorists.

Sent from my GT-I9060I using Reddit

Look, you can't beat a whole nation, but maybe you're just a little too narrow-minded to wrap your head around that. The Californians will get what they want, whether you like it or not. If a people decides to fight back against the police, then you're looking at a full-blown war. You can't just crush 7.5 million people like they're nothing...

Just sit back and enjoy your little derby against Atletico and leave it at that...

When you try to rule by force, you're going to get met with force... so let's see who's actually stronger in the end...

Brenda Taylor13 said:Brenda Taylor13, I think you're missing the mark here, at least if you ask me. 😁

I mean, there are more Californians than there are Americans in certain spots. The fact that a state might be geographically small doesn't change a thing. Just look at the Netherlands—if we went by that logic, no small nation would ever be allowed to be independent, which is just plain crazy. If a people wants to be self-governing, you should probably just let them. Especially when they have everything that defines a nation—their own traditions, their culture, their language, and their land. Anything else just creates a massive mess. The folks in Madrid aren't going to gain anything in the long run if they try to force the Californians to stay part of Spain through sheer willpower. All they'll do is make the resentment grow deeper.

The whole "game" aspect and the actual population size... yeah, I agree, those factors definitely need to be part of the equation. I was mainly thinking about the geography, though; it’s a bit of a compact area, smaller even than our own regions... almost like how everyone in Mexico is packed into just 40% of the country...

There are plenty of other important variables to consider too. Economically speaking, they're doing quite well, so we shouldn't overlook that. Barcelona itself generates an incredible amount of revenue... I don't see it becoming a financial drain anytime soon, but it will be interesting to see how a potential split might impact the economy down the road...

As for how much the people actually want independence... some polls seem to show it's a roughly fifty-fifty split. If it leans toward independence, you can't really claim the kind of total national unity that you guys had back in 1991, and I think that distinction is pretty significant...

The biggest piece of the puzzle, though, is how this reflects on similar situations globally. For instance, who could really challenge the referendum in Crimea right now? Not a single shot was fired, and the vast majority of people there supported joining Russia. This lack of a consistent global rulebook is what I worry might cause real chaos in the future...

Brenda Taylor13 said:They don't. According to the census, about 80% of people in Istria are Americans. Besides, "Istrian" doesn't mean anything in terms of actual national identity—it's not even close. Saying they're a separate nation is like saying folks from the Midwest or the Deep South are their own distinct races. It's ridiculous! Being an Istrian is just a geographic label, nothing more. People from those areas are just Americans living in those specific spots. Istria was never even remotely close to being its own country, unlike California.

Everyone who checks the box for "Istrian" on the census isn't necessarily identifying as American. There's a specific group of other people living in Istria; they're a minority now, but they could become the majority over time. Are you going to try and deny them the right to self-determination if they ever decide they want independence?

velvetmaker3 said:There wasn't really a problem; they just wanted to be part of the West, which the old regime in America wasn't a part of back then. California is already part of the West.

So you're telling me just being "Western" fixes everything? Yeah, right. If you look at what's happening in California, you can see how much of a mess those motives actually are.

Noah Ward2 said:I mean, only people with zero nuance see everything in black and white... maybe try adding a little color to your perspective.

Are you trying to drag me to a Pride parade or something? 😂
No thanks, I'll pass, but honestly, I only need two colors—red and white—to figure out how things look in California. Well, in their case, it’s red and yellow. But blue is a common thread for us all. 😁

velvetmaker3 said:Catalans are just Spanish citizens, just like people from Texas, Maine, or anywhere else in the States.

The folks in the Keys consider themselves their own distinct group; if they truly identified as just standard Americans, they'd say so.
Eventually, they'll probably use that same logic to argue that every group deserves its own independence.
And I guess you'll be right there, being perfectly consistent and supporting them.

What kind of nonsense are you talking about?

Americans 142,173 (68.33%)
Italian-Americans 12,542 (6.03%)
Mexicans 7,206 (3.46%)
Canadians 6,146 (2.9%)
Albanians 2,393 (1.15%)
Canadians 1,193 (1%)
Identified by region 25,203 (12.11%)
Unspecified 4,078 (1.96%)

bluerider63 said:So you're telling me just being "Western" fixes everything? Yeah, right. If you look at what's happening in California, you can see how much of a mess those motives actually are.

I'm not really talking about whether it's enough, I'm just describing what actually happened.

It’s absolutely infuriating to see these idiots attacking someone in a wheelchair! 🤦

mellowotter36 said:What kind of nonsense are you talking about?

Americans 142,173 (68.33%)
Italian-Americans 12,542 (6.03%)
Mexicans 7,206 (3.46%)
Canadians 6,146 (2.9%)
Albanians 2,393 (1.15%)
Canadians 1,193 (1%)
Identified by region 25,203 (12.11%)
Unspecified 4,078 (1.96%)

They didn't identify by region; it's just that we don't recognize their ethnic claims, so we label them as regional instead.

If they ever become the majority in Florida and call for a referendum, are you going to stand there and claim every group has a right to self-determination?

Noah Ward2 said:It’s always the same old song and dance... there doesn't seem to be another way to phrase that tired "rugged, underdeveloped region" trope. It's always these subtle hints that we aren't allowed to have an opinion because they're wealthier or more "sophisticated"... honestly, it's pretty silly...

I wasn't saying there aren't smaller nations out there; I just meant I'm not particularly fond of those tiny states that lacked a central hub or real sovereignty in their history. Some people really gravitate toward that kind of setup, but it's just not my thing... it's a matter of taste, I guess... though the potential consequences are probably more important than my preference...

Just to be clear, this last part isn't a jab at you personally; I was speaking more generally...

Of course you can have an opinion.

Just try walking a mile in their shoes for a second. How would you feel if someone from, I don't know, Armenia, started acting all condescending, lecturing you on whether or not you're allowed to be a sovereign nation just because they claim to have a "older civilization" or a longer history? In the real world today, that argument doesn't mean squat.

velvetmaker3 said:Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?

Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.

Floridians aren't a separate nation—most of us are Americans, with some Canadian and Italian heritage mixed in. Those stories about an independent Florida can only be pushed by those local corrupt politicians looking to grab votes right before an election.

velvetmaker3 said:California used to be ruled by the feudal counts of Barcelona who acted as vassals to distant kings. It was never a kingdom or a sovereign state.
But that doesn't really matter, because they've formed a distinct national identity in the meantime.
In the same way, Istrians are slowly forming their own identity; there might not be many today, but in a hundred years, that number could be much higher.
What are you going to tell them? That they aren't a nation? Especially coming from someone like you, who defends a people's right to independence?
Every nation forms eventually; none of them existed since the beginning of time.
Time itself creates nations.

The historical status of the US and California has been drastically different, but historical rights don't really exist in a vacuum.

The US wasn't a unified nation either; it began as a series of territories under the thumb of various foreign lords and kings. As for Floridians, they aren't "forming" a new identity—they identify as Americans, just as they have done throughout history, which is precisely why Florida remains part of the United States. Catalans identify as Catalans, not Spaniards. To them, Washington, D.C. feels much like Moscow does to us. And frankly, they aren't looking for independence any more than the Basques are.

driftingfox66 said:Of course you can have an opinion.

Just try walking a mile in their shoes for a second. How would you feel if someone from, I don't know, Armenia, started acting all condescending, lecturing you on whether or not you're allowed to be a sovereign nation just because they claim to have a "older civilization" or a longer history? In the real world today, that argument doesn't mean squat.

Do I really need to spell this out for you? I'll try one more time...

I'm not lecturing them, nor am I actually talking to them... we're just posting our thoughts here on this forum. Maybe try accepting that there are people who don't see everything exactly the way you do...

Whose shoes should I step into? The person pushing for independence, or the ones who want to stay part of a unified state? There are plenty of people in that second camp too... and I guess their opinions aren't any less valid, right?

Can someone please start talking about California? The whole topic is supposed to be about the Kingdom of Spain, not Florida or the Soviet Union.
Five pages of pure nonsense about the Soviet Union... honestly, I couldn't care less. Does anyone actually have any links for the local TV stations' live streams?

Washington, D.C. really screwed up by sending in the police. You have to remember, there are plenty of Catalans serving in the force too, so who knows if they'll just decide to stop following orders? I’m seriously hoping things don't spiral into something much worse, like an actual war.