Sailing

casualfox9 said:Since we're already tossing video clips around like confetti:

Moth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo6Exs09VQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuSrS...elated&search=

18ft skiff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th7kaLWNCnU

A little more 505 action 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7LTubYoSBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8qnQlmFsas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfG7W8esERA

We aren't just messing around—we're just surviving the winter, so I figured we could beef up our collection of clips!

So, since you're clearly obsessed with hydrofoils, check out what might be the fastest production sailboat on the planet right now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y91vkBUvHw
It’s the Hobie Trifolier. Honestly though—once that initial speed rush wears off—it's kind of a letdown. You aren't really "sailing" in the traditional sense; you're basically just hunkered down in a cockpit, using two pedals instead of a tiller, and swapping out all those classic lines and sheets for... well, a stick.

If you want another look, here’s the second production hydrofoil trimaran, the WindRider Rave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-NdFYiYa8

Personally, I don't get too carried away with these things. I mean, sure, I’d love to hop in one when the conditions are absolutely perfect, but I could never actually buy one. Here's why:
a) You need a decent amount of wind just to get those foils to lift, and you won't find those breezy days every single day out on the Atlantic—especially not during the summer. Most of these boats need enough wind to hit about 15 knots just to get them up on foil in the first place.
b) They absolutely hate rough water.
c) Those foils snap way too easily, and fixing them? A total nightmare.

Brian Moore67 said:Look, if you’re going to obsess over hydrofoils this much, here’s the fastest production sailboat out there right now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y91vkBUvHw
It's the Hobie Trifolier. But honestly, once that initial speed rush wears off, you realize they aren't all that great because you aren't actually sailing anymore—you're just sitting in a cockpit using two pedals instead of a rudder and a bunch of lines instead of a stick.

Then there’s this other production foiling trimaran, the Windrider Rave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-NdFYiYa8

Personally, I don't get too carried away with these types of boats; I’d happily take one out when the conditions are perfect, but I wouldn't buy one, and here is why:
a) You need a minimum wind speed just to get those foils to lift, which isn't something you're going to find every single day on the Atlantic, especially not during the summer. Most of these boats require enough wind to hit about 15 knots without the foils just to get them to engage.
b) They can't handle rough seas at all.
c) Those foils snap easily and are a massive pain to fix.

To get a Moth up on its foils, you need at least 7 knots of wind—unless, of course, you weigh 220 pounds. Out in places like San Diego, you rarely deal with anything more than a small chop, so even that isn't a huge issue, particularly in the summer when you get those steady breezes coming off the coast that don't kick up massive swells. As for the foils, it's not like they snap like twigs; if they're made of carbon, you really have to work at it to break them, but let's be real: if you do snap one and you don't have a buddy nearby who knows how to work with carbon fiber, you are absolutely screwed. That said, the experience on these boats is incredible; once you hit 15 knots, which is basically their standard cruising speed, anyone sailing a traditional cruiser is going to look like they're standing still. And don't forget, the record for a Moth is 28 knots!

Brandon Mitchell6 said:You need at least 7 knots of wind to get a Moth up and running—unless you’re rocking a solid 220 pounds. Honestly, out on the Atlantic, you rarely deal with waves higher than a foot or two anyway, so that’s not much of an issue, especially during the summer when you get those steady land breezes blowing in without kicking up much swell. And hydrofoils? Man, they aren't exactly easy to snap if they're made of carbon—you’d really have to try hard to break them. Though, true story: if you *do* manage to crack one and you don't have a buddy nearby who's a wizard with carbon fiber, you are basically screwed... haha. But seriously, the rush on these boats is unreal! Once you hit 15 knots, it’s a blast, and when you compare that to cruising in a keelboat or something similar, people just lose their minds. Don't even get me started on the Moth record—it's 28 knots!

With catamarans, hitting 15 knots is totally standard, and they can easily fly past 30—some even touch 35. The record set by the boat Hobie Trifolier is based on, which was a total longshot, clocked in at 43.55 knots. And hey, maybe I *do* weigh 220 pounds. Who knows? I’ve got a little beer belly that I absolutely cherish, so I’m not complaining! 😍

As for things breaking, it usually happens when you slam into some underwater junk, especially when you're sailing close to the coast. I remember back when I was a kid, we hit a buoy chain with our Star class boat and everyone went overboard! The keel would've snapped clean off if it wasn't for this massive hunk of steel weighing a couple hundred pounds.

Brandon Mitchell6 said:To get a Moth up and running, you really need at least 7 knots of wind—unless, of course, you’re weighing in at 220 pounds. Out on the Atlantic, you rarely deal with anything more than a half-meter swell, so even then, it isn't much of an issue. Especially during the summer months when you mostly get those steady onshore breezes like a tramontana followed by a maestral, or occasionally a gusty north wind; they tend to be land-based winds that don't kick up massive waves. As for the hydrofoils... well, they aren't exactly easy to snap. If they're made of carbon, you really have to go out of your way to break them. It’s true, though, if you actually manage to crack one and you don't happen to have a buddy nearby who specializes in carbon fiber repair, you are absolutely screwed. I mean, the sensation of sailing these boats is just unparalleled. When you look at their cruising speed, hitting 15 knots is perfectly normal, and when you manage that in a dinghy or something else, the crew just loses it. And let's not forget, the record on a Moth is 28 knots!

Rohan says he can take off at just 5 knots🙂 but he's light; I doubt he weighs more than 135-140 lbs.

Check out this clip:
These guys in Sweden are pulling 15 knots in what's basically a dead calm—can't be more than 5 knots of wind out there... on the Tornado (big download, 19mb)
http://www.teamtornado.se/movie/teamtornado.mpg

casualfox9 said:Killer video!

A little trivia for ya:
That second white trimaran popping up in the clip—the Foncain one—is actually the boat Ellen MacArthur used for her Route du Rhum run, and also when she tried the Jules Verne, though she ended up losing her masts mid-race. That orange maxi catamaran? That’s Orange II, the beast that smashed the circumnavigation record with a full crew back in 2005. I’m pretty sure that red trimaran belongs to Yvan Bourgnon, specifically Brossard. Then you've got the yellow Open 60 monohull, which is Cheminees Poujoulat. The other white trimaran is Gitana 11, the winner of Route du Rhum 2006. And that green trimaran is, if I recall correctly, Alan Gaultier’s rig.

Every single one of them has an insane pedigree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6TecnJiUX8

Check out these surf crashes. It’s actually a pretty solid compilation, especially with how well the soundtrack fits the chaos.

Oh, I totally forgot to mention—the Moth project is moving along nicely. If everything stays on track, I’m planning to hit the water for a regatta near the Coast Guard by the end of June.🙂 🙂

Brandon Mitchell6 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6TecnJiUX8

Check out these surfing wipeouts. It’s actually a pretty killer compilation with a great soundtrack.

Oh, I totally forgot to mention—the Moth project is coming along nicely! If everything stays on track, I’m planning to head out for the regatta near the Coast by the end of June.🙂 🙂

Hey there, Ozren

I spotted your post on that Australian forum and saw you've started building a Moth. I've been thinking about building one myself for years, but sourcing all the right materials has always been a massive headache.
If you're up for it, I'd love to hear how your Moth build is progressing—what design are you going with, and what kind of materials are you using?
Could you shoot me your phone number so we can chat?
My email is: Ivan.BozicMAKNIOVO@post.com

Ivan Bozic

Best from San Diego

Anonymous said:Hey there, Ozren.

I caught your post over on that Australian forum and saw you've actually started building a Moth. I’ve been kicking around the idea of building one myself for years now, but honestly, tracking down the right materials has always been a massive headache.
If you're up for it, I’d love to hear how the build is coming along—what kind of design are you running with, and what kind of materials are you using?
Drop me your number so we can chat on the phone.
My email is: Ivan.BozicMAKNIOVO@post.com

Ivan Bozic

Best from San Diego

Hey Ivan, I sent you an email, but I'm not sure if it actually went through because my provider is acting up and throwing errors at me. If you didn't get it, shoot me a message at river21@net.com and I'll try to get back to you that way.

Just a quick update: we have 4 spots available for a sailing program that’s a bit different from the standard curriculum you'll find at most training schools. We're looking at the week of June 16th this year:

"Sailing and Cruising Course"

What the week covers:

- Pre-sailing prep (gear, meal planning, route planning, etc.) – includes a lecture in Chicago one week prior to departure
- Crew organization
- Basic onboard safety protocols
- Vessel preparation for sea
- Understanding boat components, rope work, sails, and winches
- Knot tying
- Anchoring techniques
- Docking in marinas or harbors
- Steering basics, docking, and maneuvering lines
- Rigging the boat, hoisting, and dropping sails
- Fundamentals of sailing and wind dynamics
- Maneuvers
- Sail trimming
- Reefing sails
- Navigation
- Introduction to racing and regatta rules
- Cooking onboard
- Extras: tailored to what the group wants—think visiting local coastal eateries, cycling through islands, and so on.

The core focus here is pure sailing—specifically, how to navigate safely and efficiently using the wind.

Theory sessions: 2 hours per day
Hands-on training (onboard): 6 hours per day
Remaining time: leisure activities (free sailing, sunbathing, swimming, fishing, biking, etc.)

We have two potential routes planned: the southern or central Atlantic Ocean coast, depending on the weather and what the participants feel like doing.
The vessel we'll be using is a First 40.7.

Price per person: $1333

Additional costs: food, marina/harbor mooring fees, and national park entrance fees.

Requirements for participants:
- Non-smokers
- Must be 18+

Shoot me a PM for more details.

>Another Moth is heading to Chicago—well, actually, more likely San Diego

Hey there, casualfox9

Did you end up picking up that Moth? Any idea when it might make its way down to San Diego? I’d love to finally see one of these things in person! :-)

Best regards,

Ivan

Anonymous said:Another Moth is heading to Chicago, or rather, it will be spending more time in San Diego

Good day, casualfox9

Did you end up buying a Moth? Do you happen to know when it might make its way down to San Diego? I would truly love to finally see one in person. :-)

Best regards,

Ivan

Not yet, unfortunately. 😢 I am currently scouring the classified ads hoping to find something at a better price.

casualfox9 said:Not yet, unfortunately. 😢 I'm keeping an eye on the classifieds to see if anything decent pops up at a better price.

I've been scouring the listings too, but finding a modern narrow Moth that doesn't break the bank is almost impossible. That's actually why I decided to just build one myself.

LP

Ivan

Anonymous said:I've been scouring the classified ads myself, but finding a modern, narrow Moth that doesn't break the bank is nearly impossible. That's exactly why I decided to just build one from scratch.

Best,

Ivan

Occasionally, an older, lighter design gets converted for foiling and pops up on the market. I actually missed out on two of them recently—they sold incredibly fast. 😢

Where are you planning to have the boat built?

I’m actually considering that exact same route; I'm just waiting for the guys over in Seattle to wrap up their current build. 🙂

Hey casualfox9, Ivan and I were just catching up today and we came to the exact same conclusion: you get what you pay for when it comes to gear. 😬 Honestly, I don't think it would be a massive deal to sail a Moth that isn't made of carbon, provided we actually knew how to handle it, but since we’re amateurs, we’d probably end up with some chaotic rigging failure or something equally disastrous where a shroud snaps and takes our heads off—or at least a leg if we're lucky :-). Carbon fiber is just significantly more robust, so you really need a thick skin to handle the kind of carnage that happens when things go wrong.

I'm not sure if you guys caught that last post from Luka Damic, but he's claiming he was pulling 20-22 knots with only a 10-12 knot breeze??!!!

I'll keep you guys posted on how things are moving along.

casualfox9 said:Sometimes an older, lighter design pops up that’s been converted for foiling. I actually missed out on two of them recently—they sold incredibly fast. 😢

So, where are you planning to build your boat?

🙂

On the balcony 😛

For now, the plan is to build a more affordable, standard Moth rather than a foiler. I want to get some hands-on experience working with epoxy, fiberglass, carbon, and PVC. Plus, I need to actually learn how to sail a Moth; from what I’ve read, it’s definitely not as easy as it looks.
Even without the hydrofoil, a Moth is a pretty fast little boat. Once I've got the hang of it, I might think about upgrading to foils or building a better, lighter hull.

Cheers, and good luck hunting down those moljac Ivans! 👍

Ivan

Hey everyone! Sorry to crash this thread out of nowhere, but I’ve got a few questions I figured you guys could clear up for me. I’m looking to sign up for skipper training and want to know what the actual process looks like. From what I’ve heard, you have to pass for a smaller motorboat first before you even touch a sailboat? Is that right? Also, I’m assuming there are different categories based on boat size—I’m planning on building something in the 12 to 15-meter range, so which category would that fall under? One more thing: is the radio operator course included in the school curriculum, or is that a separate headache? Are there any decent schools in Chicago, how long does the course actually take, and what kind of damage am I looking at price-wise? Most importantly though, how good is the knowledge base you actually get from these schools? Is it legit or just a waste of time? Thanks in advance!

Michael Adams said:Hey everyone! Sorry to crash this thread, but I have a few questions that I figured you guys could help me out with. I’m looking to enroll in a skipper training program, so I’m wondering what the standard procedure looks like? I heard you have to pass an exam for small motorboats before moving on to sailboats? I assume there are different categories based on length—I’m planning on building something between 40 and 50 feet, so which category would that fall under? Also, is the radio operator certification included in the school curriculum or is that a separate thing? Are there any decent schools in Chicago, how long does the course take, and what’s the ballpark price? Most importantly, how solid is the knowledge base you actually get from these schools? Thanks in advance!

I'll give you the rundown based on what I know. Whether it’s a small motorboat or a sailboat isn't really the deciding factor here. For a vessel of that size, you need to pass the exam for a boat operator, which essentially lands you in Category C.

With that Category C certification, you are authorized to:

-- operate all types of watercraft
- handle yachts up to 20 BT (which basically means boats up to about 65 feet, assuming roughly one ton per meter), regardless of their purpose or where you're cruising

As far as I know, the radio operator exam and course are being phased out starting this year, and honestly, even before that, nobody was really doing it in practice. The cost for the course is around $3,000$1667. It lasts about seven days. After that, you head to one of the Coast Guard stations for the actual exam. What the school teaches you is fine and useful, but the real trick is to soak up as much information as possible. In my opinion, the absolute essentials are knowing everything about onboard safety, reading nautical charts (plotting courses, etc.), and mastering collision avoidance rules. The school will cover all that. The part that gets tricky is the hands-on experience—actually handling the boat on the water, especially docking and undocking in marinas. Our marinas can be pretty tight and absolutely packed during the summer, so if you don't know how to handle a boat properly, you can cause absolute chaos. Your best bet is to have the boat ready to go with an experienced skipper who can show you all those little tricks for docking and maneuvering in tight spots.

I'm not sure if there are schools in Chicago. I'm originally from Cleveland, and there's one here.

Brandon Mitchell6 said:I'll answer based on what I know. It doesn't matter if it's a small motorboat or a sailboat. For a vessel of that size, you have to pass the exam for a recreational boat operator license; otherwise, you're looking at Category C requirements.

A holder of that Category C license is authorized to:

-- operate all types of recreational boats
- yachts up to 20 tons (which basically means boats up to about 20 meters, assuming an average of one ton per meter), regardless of their purpose or where you're sailing them.

As far as I know, the radio certification is being phased out starting this year, though it wasn't much used in practice even before then. The course cost is roughly $3,000$1667. It lasts about seven days. After that, you head to one of the local Coast Guard stations to take the exam. What the school teaches you is decent and useful, but the real goal is to soak up as much information as possible. In my opinion, the most critical things are mastering onboard safety, reading nautical charts (plotting courses, etc.), and knowing the rules of the road to avoid collisions. The school covers all of that. The trickier part is the hands-on experience—actually handling the boat on the water, especially docking and undocking in marinas. Our US marinas can be pretty cramped and absolutely packed during the summer; if you don't know how to handle a boat properly, you can cause total chaos. It would be best if you could get on a boat once it's ready and go out with an experienced skipper who can show you all those little tricks regarding docking and maneuvering.

I'm not sure if there are schools in Washington, D.C., but I'm from Cleveland and there's one here.

I agree with everything mentioned; the only thing you can learn beyond the theoretical level is a Rolex course, which is the category above the C license. From what I understand, in Washington, D.C., they even use large ship simulators alongside the theory.

Regarding practical experience, you really need to spend at least two or three weeks at the helm under various weather conditions to feel confident enough to dock and depart without issues (assuming you don't already have prior experience with any kind of watercraft). You can get those two or three weeks in through specialized training courses or by helping out an experienced skipper.

The emphasis has to be on different weather conditions, because practicing docking in calm waters is nothing like doing it when a Nor'easter is blowing 20 knots or more. A lot of people who learned to steer with a tiller struggle immensely when they finally find themselves behind a real wheel.

Another vital skill every skipper needs to master is crew management—basically, knowing how to clearly explain everyone's roles during maneuvers. For example, you don't want to deal with someone grabbing a mooring line from the water and pulling it toward the shore, fighting against both you and the engine.